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Belaz

Let's talk Critical Hits

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Just say no to random crits.

 

In fact, don't even use the term "critical hit" as it has too many expected ties to more RNG based systems.

 

In fact, I'd be happy if there were no random damage ranges in the game at all once you hit 100 in whatever skill you're using to deal damage. None of this "You deal 90-130 damage" nonsense. It's useless random math that doesn't really impact combat in the slightest, and forces the server to roll more dice for no apparent benefit.

 

If we're not relying on RNG to determine whether I hit or not, we shouldn't be relying on RNG to determine how much damage I deal either. If the combination of my weapon and skills make me hit for a base 100 damage, I should always hit for a base 100 damage, modified by buffs, defensive modifiers, etc.

 

Using "lunging strike" on a guy, and dealing 28 damage should equate to dealing 28 damage the next time I use the skill, unless an offensive or defensive modifier changed, you know, because he or I used a skill, or armor or the weapon degraded, or whatever.

Sounds kind of boring actually. If every attack does the same exact damage then you no longer have real RPG based combat. You just have a situation where its an arms race to get the best gear because if you have the best sword then you'll do more damage then someone who has a lesser sword and they'll have literally no chance to compete. Better gear should obviously be an advantage but not an absolute advantage that would be given in a non-RNG system. With RNG you give more players the chance to compete and don't have such a severe line between players of varying skill and gear levels. A more equal playing field is always better for the game overall IMO.

 

If people want more twitch or FPS style gaming where everyone has the same guns and they do the same damage that's fine go play them, but why should this MMORPG be the same way? So Skill should be a bigger factor but an MMORPG with no RNG at all? No thanks.

Edited by pang

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Just say no to random crits.

 

In fact, don't even use the term "critical hit" as it has too many expected ties to more RNG based systems.

 

In fact, I'd be happy if there were no random damage ranges in the game at all once you hit 100 in whatever skill you're using to deal damage. None of this "You deal 90-130 damage" nonsense. It's useless random math that doesn't really impact combat in the slightest, and forces the server to roll more dice for no apparent benefit.

 

If we're not relying on RNG to determine whether I hit or not, we shouldn't be relying on RNG to determine how much damage I deal either. If the combination of my weapon and skills make me hit for a base 100 damage, I should always hit for a base 100 damage, modified by buffs, defensive modifiers, etc.

 

Using "lunging strike" on a guy, and dealing 28 damage should equate to dealing 28 damage the next time I use the skill, unless an offensive or defensive modifier changed, you know, because he or I used a skill, or armor or the weapon degraded, or whatever.

Sounds crappy; That just means that it's a game of math. I have better numbers and I'm better able to apply those numbers, ergo I win everytime.

If you want something like that, go play Chess.

 

Without any RNG (ie factors outside my control) evening the curve, that means that the outcome of every single situation is decided before it begins.

 

Does this mean that the RNG should be the deciding factor? Absolutely not; If the sum total of 'factors outside my control' is greater than the sum total of 'factors under my control', then it's just a game of weighted chance and I might as well roll a cooked die for fun.

Edited by Psyentific

Hardcore gamer & tabletop enthusiast. Enjoys roleplaying, pretending to be stupid, and one-sided fun.

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its not just a game of math.  Now the outcome is derived by how you play the toon, rather than dumb luck.  Certainly, gearing up properly will be important as well.  (using plate armor to counter slashing attacks, or seeing someone in plate, and then switching your attack to crushing damage) for example.  I don't see the harm in eliminating RNG and damage ranges. It allows true nuts and bolts min/max analysis.

 

OTOH, I always was kind of fond of procs, which allowed someone who had a certain damage style, to be able to add a second style in. (a melee with a proc for fire damage for example)  I don't see how a proc would work well without RNG.  If you just put it on a cooldown, that would be kind of lame, and if you made it proc at the end of a damage chain, that would also defeat the purpose (for me anyhow)


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I'd really like to see critical hits where stacking critical damage and critical damage isn't an obvious choice for every PvPer.

 

I'd like to see:

 

Damage per hit DPSers vs. Damage cap / scale based on damage / single hit negation type defensive abilities.

Attack rate / effect on hit DPS vs. Effect on hit type defense.

Crit rate based DPS vs. crit resistance type DPS.

Damage over Time vs. DoT removal.

 

When you get all that kind of stuff then you get where if the flavor of the month is criticals then people will start wearing gear with crit resistance until DoT becomes the new FotM and people start shifting over to DoT removal to negate that etc.

 


"To hell with honor. Win."

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Sounds crappy; That just means that it's a game of math. I have better numbers and I'm better able to apply those numbers, ergo I win everytime.

If you want something like that, go play Chess.

 

Without any RNG (ie factors outside my control) evening the curve, that means that the outcome of every single situation is decided before it begins.

 

Does this mean that the RNG should be the deciding factor? Absolutely not; If the sum total of 'factors outside my control' is greater than the sum total of 'factors under my control', then it's just a game of weighted chance and I might as well roll a cooked die for fun.

 

No, it isn't. This is a legitimate concern when you're not factoring in active defense, tab targeting, and other such grease to the wheels of what would otherwise be a very boring system.

 

When you're building a game around player skill and build choices determining the outcome of combat, you should design the damage model around the same system.

 

The factors outside your control are the actions of your enemy and you should be expected to anticipate, react, and fake out that opponent, use your environment, and rely on the strengths of your build. Combat shouldn't be a test of RNG. It shuld be a combination of the strengths of your character, the strengths of your enemy's character, and your ability to effectively use the combat system.

 

This is not EVE where the only actionable decisions are range, heading ,and fittings. We're expected to have a very high level of agency including but not limited to actually aiming our own attacks and actively defending to such a point that residual RNG is effectively pointless, so why bother putting it there in the first place?


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I have seen a lot of talk about whether or not to included RNG in the game but I think the goal that they have in mind here is usually a skill based system. I think that if they stuck with no critical hits but weapon damage variations that went from high to low(Steel sword 19-25 damage) that would be more exceptable. Then you could have weapon crafters that are more skilled creating more consistent weapons(Sharp Steel Sword 22-25 damage) or even raising the damage modifier(Master Crafted Steel Sword 24-28 damage).

I do like Gideon's proposal here though.


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its not just a game of math.  Now the outcome is derived by how you play the toon, rather than dumb luck.  Certainly, gearing up properly will be important as well.  (using plate armor to counter slashing attacks, or seeing someone in plate, and then switching your attack to crushing damage) for example.  I don't see the harm in eliminating RNG and damage ranges. It allows true nuts and bolts min/max analysis.

 

OTOH, I always was kind of fond of procs, which allowed someone who had a certain damage style, to be able to add a second style in. (a melee with a proc for fire damage for example)  I don't see how a proc would work well without RNG.  If you just put it on a cooldown, that would be kind of lame, and if you made it proc at the end of a damage chain, that would also defeat the purpose (for me anyhow)

 

Procs are cool, but on the other hand the actual application of procs was useless unless you could actually make the proc reliable in the first place. You don't roll procs on a low attack speed weapon. You roll procs while dual wielding two very high attack speed weapons so that additional damage or effect type is reliable.

 

Taking the RNG out of the procs wouldn't really change much compared to a cooldown or "end of chain" aside from opening up proc style builds to being more viable on more builds.

Edited by PopeUrban

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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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You just have a situation where its an arms race to get the best gear because if you have the best sword then you'll do more damage then someone who has a lesser sword and they'll have literally no chance to compete.

 

Isn't Crowfall an action game? Aren't there skills to choose, archetypes, builds.. ? Team fights, cooperation.. ?

If fights were pre-determined by math surely RNG wouldn't make things better. It would be like tossing Custardly dices.

Edited by Fenris DDevil

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Isn't Crowfall an action game? Aren't there skills to choose, archetypes, builds.. ?

If fights were predetermined surely RNG wouldn't make things better. It would be a Custardly dice toss.

 

If the best sword always does the exact same damage and its the highest damage then you can't really compete until you have the same sword. The same applies for skills that now have exact damage numbers. That causes too severe of a gear/player advantage. RNG helps smooth out the curve and helps promote a more even playing field.

 

No it wouldn't be a dice toss, that's not how it works... Player skill is still the bigger factor but its not the only factor.

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A system that rewards damage for where on the body the hit lands would be really cool I just think it might be a very taxing system in large scale battles. Especially with voxels already confirmed.

 

I think they should go with the Darkfall system a single hitbox with bonus damage if you hit from behind just for the sake of simplicity unless multiple hitboxes is easier than I've assumed.

 

If it is easier then hell yeah, remove critical and add headshots/torso shots. Also make armor specific to the hitbox it covers rather than a generic armor rating. So you might see people in leather gloves/boots with chainmails arms/legs with a breastplate and a helmet. Something along these lines. Or like this. Not just everyone in full plate or full leather.\

 

Hell even without that system armor on the torso and head should give higher critical protection and armor on the legs/feet should give the most movement penalties and armor on the hands/arms the most attack speed penalties.

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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If the best sword always does the exact same damage and its the highest damage then you can't really compete until you have the same sword. The same applies for skills that now have exact damage numbers. That causes too severe of a gear/player advantage. RNG helps smooth out the curve and helps promote a more even playing field.

 

No it wouldn't be a dice toss, that's not how it works... Player skill is still the bigger factor but its not the only factor.

 

Except for the part where the damage is influenced by:

 

  • How well you aimed the attack
  • What condition your gear is in
  • What are your skills, and what are the target's skills?
  • How long are the cooldowns on your skills versus his skills?
  • What are the cooldowns on any cooldown based passive effects active on you and your opponent?
  • What damage type you are dealing versus the defensive modifiers on your target
  • What activated defensive and offensive effects are active on your and your opponents
  • Whether the target is blocking, dodging, or parrying
  • How is your warmth stat looking?
  • How many other players are in this battle?

 

And any number of other variables that influence that hit.

 

You're not always doing the exact same damage. You're always doing the same base damage before all other external and predictable variables that you may not be able to see, including player skill, influence it.

Edited by PopeUrban

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If the best sword always does the exact same damage and its the highest damage then you can't really compete until you have the same sword.

 

Again this is not a tab-target game, having a slightly better equip doesn't make you instanly win.

 

RNG helps smooth out the curve and helps promote a more even playing field.

 

Untrue, RNG doesn't know if you have a good sword or not. The only way to "promote an even playing field" is to have weapon's damage fluctuate from the minimum possible damage to the maximum possible damage, which makes weapons basically all the same, and fights completely random.

Edited by Fenris DDevil

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Again this is not a tab-target game, having a slightly better equip doesn't make you instanly win.

 

 

Untrue, RNG doesn't know if you have a good sword or not. The only way to "promote an even playing field" is to have weapon's damage fluctuate from the minimum possible damage to the maximum possible damage, which makes weapons basically all the same, and fights completely random.

hmm yeah no poorly made socks its not a tab target game, thats really not relevant to the point, like at all. Theres always many factors that go into it regardless of game style. It applies to anything not just gear.

 

RNG doesn't make fights completely random, it never has so no idea why keep repeating that.

 

Anyways we pretty much already know there will be some RNG in this game as we saw that stat sheet when they first announced the game.http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/641-011315-character-creation-preview/ (note the damage ranges and crit % stat)  So not really interested in yet another one of these discussions, just chimed in my opinion like others and thats it.

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Darkfall wasn't a tab targeted game and while skill made a huge difference and a highly skilled player with crap gear/stats could potentially beat a poorly skilled player with great gear/stats those gear/stats did significantly alter the outcome.

 

When someone is attack faster, doing more damage per hit, negating more of your damage, healing themselves faster, has a higher HP pool etc. that all compounds pretty fast.

 

RNG is just another element that can help sway the odds in favor of the less-skilled player winning.

 

Edit: For the record I like when gear alters the outcome as long as that gear is lost on death. That helps drive the economy and make winning/losing, resource raids, etc. have importance. I've long opposed combat skill progression in most MMO's I've played though. I think it's a useless "that's how it's always been done" mechanic that holds back the MMO industry in most instances.

 

RNG has it's place because it helps make combat less predictable which means you have to pay more attention. It just needs to be used cautiously as to not effect the outcome based on rolls too heavily. In general I favor systems that reward unique builds that require specific counters over RNG.

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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RNG is just another element that can help sway the odds in favor of the less-skilled player winning.

 

Which is why it's bad in a competitive environment.

 

I am not the most skilled PvPer. My record is generally pretty good because I'm a lot better at field command than individual 1v1 fights. If i get in a 1v1 with a similar build, similar gear, etc. and the other guy is simply better at the build than I am, I believe he should win.

 

I don't believe we need to coddle lesser skilled players when the system is already designed to be slow enough that it's more reliant on strategy than pure twitch skill. ACE has already told us they intend the combat to have a pretty generous skill floor so that it's not difficult to be competent at playing it, and that should be plenty. They intend the system to be easier to actually get good at, so I don't see a point in coddling people with RNG based wins, and in a more action and physics oriented environment there are already enough variables to keep track of that RNG doesn't need to function as a stand in for "implied realism"

 

For example, evade percentage, or block percentage, and other such RNG passive defenses originally existed because combat simply wasn't interactive enough to actually add a block button. Because there was no aiming, and no meaningful timing of hits because everything ran on a very slow server clock timing cycle.

 

So we simulated the whole thing, we gave the character a chance to hit, and the other a chance to block. It made sense.

 

When you're telling the player to aim attacks, block attacks, and generally take direct responsibility for their character's combat performance, you don't need RNG to fill in the blanks. Imagine how much street fighter or zelda would suck if damage was randomized.

 

In fact I'll call up an instance where it DID in fact suck. A short lived MMO called Auto Assault.

 

See, auto assault was an MMO in which you controlled cars with guns. It had quests and the whole nine yards, but it also required you to aim your car and fire your own guns. Then, it decided that whather you actually hit with attacks was up to stat modifiers. It was f*cking awful. Juggling not running in to things and aiming at moving targets, lining up a hit, and then seeing MISS or DEFLECT was just plain frustrating.

 

The game didn't work because they made a fatal design decision. They though "this is an MMO, so we must have variant tohit rolls" despite the fact that their combat model was interactive and challenging enough that they didn't need them for satisfying play. By adding a layer of RNG on top of an already highly interactive and skill based system, they made the system frustrating and unplayable.

 

I'm not saying the example of "20-25 damage" on a sword is as bad, but I am saying that it's unnecessary, and only serves to add frustration and make it harder to compare items and make sense of character sheets. It just doesn't add to anyone's fun when the combat is already asking you to juggle so many active real time factors that determine hits and damage.

 

Imagine getting missed, blocked, knocked back, dodged, and then hitting for 180 in stead of the 210 you needed to finish the fight. On top of an already intense fight, you've just been completely c*ckblocked by RNG for no discernible reason.

 

RNG is a relic of a time when combat systems had to revolve around RNG to be fun at all. We're past it. MMO combat systems (crowfall in particular) have moved much closer to third person action games with more players and better itemization. We don't actually need combat RNG to stand in for dodging, blocking, and hitting glancing blows or direct hits at this point because we are actually dodging, blocking, and hitting glancing blows or direct hits.

 

Combat can be just as mechanically complex, fulfilling, and balanced without leaning on RNG, and the argument that it 'lets less skilled players compete' is not a good one. Making the skill floor lower and the mechanical timing of combat slower than full-on-twitch based already makes the space between the floor and the ceiling small enough.

Edited by PopeUrban

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I'm not sure whether you really read my post or not because I wasn't trying to suggest that was a good thing at all. I'm in full agreement that the system should not be designed to coddle less skilled players. I think any RNG should be minimal and have a damn good reason for being there. No RNG whatsoever wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit.

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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I'm not sure whether you really read my post or not because I wasn't trying to suggest that was a good thing at all. I'm in full agreement that the system should not be designed to coddle less skilled players.

 

More expounding upon why it isn't necessary at all using similar logic, and explaining why i think it's not needed to spice up combat and make people pay more attention due to the actually quite active nature of combat.


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RNG isn't bad. It serves a purpose, and just often gets misused or left unchecked. The biggest benefit of RNG is that it can help throw dynamic circumstances at you. So yes, "Your enemy's 5% crit chance netted him 3 crits in a row instead of 0 crits on those last three attacks!" is going beyond that, because he didn't DO anything differently to get 3 crits, and you can't really react to that in a meaningful way. It's just a lucky, direct advantage in the "who can get the other person to 0 HP first?" contest.

 

But, if it's used properly, it can provide a much better experience than "all circumstances are always completely controlled by the players." For example, what if you only get a critical chance when you've created a tactical advantage? Was that person hit with some kind of armor-rending spell? Then, for the next 5 seconds, attacks that hit them have a chance to deal extra damage.

 

The thing about damage ranges and such is... if you fire an arrow at someone, in the midst of actual battle, it's REALLY hard to make sure you hit them in the lung, and not 2-inches to the left of their lung. One is going to do more "damage" (an abstract, mathematical representation of the threat an injury poses to your alive-ness) than the other. So, in a way, things like ranges and crit chance kind of make sense. But, they should have a VERY small role. A 3% chance to crit is very beneficial over a 0% chance, but when you get to a 30% chance to crit, it kind of defeats the purpose of what a critical hit is representing in the first place. If you're character's going to deal extra damage that often, you might as well just have him deal +X base damage all the time (when he hits), and leave the crit chance really, really low.

 

*shrug*. Chance has a place in games like this, because we're not physically controlling the angle of our blades, etc. There's still a representation of character skill alongside player skill. You can't make your character be able to cast Firebolt, just becuase you will it. If your character can't do that, they can't do that. But, yeah, it very often gets misused (chance, that is), in games. Passive critical hit chance builds should never be a thing. That's just a convoluted way of making a higher-damage build.


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I hate it when it's mathematically better to get more crit (hit and damage) than any other stat. That shouldn't exist, IMO.


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