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Belaz

Let's talk Critical Hits

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I like inconsistent cool things happening when they happen consistently.

 

The only reason I like crit, is because its the next tier up from normal damage, and you pew pew dudes into the ground when you have high crit, and damage.

 

 

Can we just do that, but without the annoying, lower 80% of crit chance getting involved and making the stat feel lame?

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its not just a game of math.  Now the outcome is derived by how you play the toon, rather than dumb luck.  Certainly, gearing up properly will be important as well.  (using plate armor to counter slashing attacks, or seeing someone in plate, and then switching your attack to crushing damage) for example.  I don't see the harm in eliminating RNG and damage ranges. It allows true nuts and bolts min/max analysis.

 

OTOH, I always was kind of fond of procs, which allowed someone who had a certain damage style, to be able to add a second style in. (a melee with a proc for fire damage for example)  I don't see how a proc would work well without RNG.  If you just put it on a cooldown, that would be kind of lame, and if you made it proc at the end of a damage chain, that would also defeat the purpose (for me anyhow)

 

You can still have procs without RNG. In Dark Souls you hit an opponent with a weapon that has a proc effect and it built up a certain amount of their tolerance meter. The meter drained over time, so you had to hit them several times in quick succession in order to proc your effect.


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No chance, a skill called "focus" that you can use once every two or five minutes. It allows you to activate your next skill at double potency. Debuff lasts longer, heals for more, damages double... what have you.

 

In a big fight, your timing and which skill you buff will matter. It becomes a tactical play, rather than a chance play.

 

 

That's not a crit though that's just a combo or a larger hit skill...

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Anyways we pretty much already know there will be some RNG in this game as we saw that stat sheet when they first announced the game.http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/641-011315-character-creation-preview/ (note the damage ranges and crit % stat)  So not really interested in yet another one of these discussions, just chimed in my opinion like others and thats it.

 

Like I already said, there's nothing wrong with critical stats/builds and so on, when they're well thought.

You want a % to crit? Nice, now your damage will fluctuate more and averagely will be worse than someone else's.

 

Regarding your stance on pure RNG in fights to help low-skilled players, that's completely bullsh1t.

If you have worse equipment, you need to fight better. Unless what's the goddamn point to have better equipment or fighting skills AT ALL.

 

Be a man and start fearing the consequences of your actions, instead of hiding behind RNG chances.

Edited by Fenris DDevil

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Like I already said, there's nothing wrong with critical stats/builds and so on, when they're well thought.

You want a % to crit? Nice, now your damage will fluctuate more and averagely will be worse than someone else's.

 

Regarding your stance on pure RNG in fights to help low-skilled players, that's completely bullsh1t.

If you have worse equipment, you need to fight better. Unless what's the goddamn point to have better equipment or fighting skills AT ALL.

 

Be a man and start fearing the consequences of your actions, instead of hiding behind RNG chances.

lol I don't have stance on "pure RNG" whatever that means. If you bothered to read what i wrote instead of just jumping to disagree because you saw I posted.

 

I said some RNG is good for the game because it makes the skill and gear curves less severe. Thats better for everyone. Skill should always be the biggest determining factor, been saying that all along. 

Edited by pang

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That's not a crit though that's just a combo or a larger hit skill...

What do you think a critical hit is? It is typically a combo to do more damage every now and again at random. I'd prefer it to be more tactical.

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One of the reason that I want as little RNG as possible in Crowfall is that nothing annoys me more than when players today cry and make excuses that the RNG is the only reason they lost.  They could have lost without ever receiving a critical hit and without ever having one of their attacks mitigated and still blame it on RNG.

 

I want combat where I know that either I won because of how I played my character, how I used the terrain with positioning, how I took advantage of situations that presented themselves, and by how I chose to build and gear out my character.  I am also fine knowing that I lost because someone did more of those things better than I did.

 

The size of the fight determines how much weight each of those categories have.  In 1v1 skill and gear will play a bigger part than positioning and situation awareness to find advantage will be in determining the victor.  The larger the fight the more the importance those start to flip around to the opposite.  

 

This is the sort of combat I wan't personally and for me it will be a huge turn off if there are characters with 80% crit chance and 250% crit damage type of stats.  

Edited by Belaz

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I am highly preferable to critical hits being built towards rather than random.  That said, I wouldn't mind seeing some small, basic change to get a modest critical hit in normal gameplay, but those crits need to still come from a specific skill.

 

My hope is two fold: "Finisher" RNG crits and "Tactical" skill crits.

 

The Finisher crits are a chance every class has when using a combo finisher or ending skill of a combo chain for the ability to do extra damage, a base 5% chance for say 25% extra base damage and 25% armor/resistance ignore.  Various builds could still work that as a distinct part of them, where the chance increases and the penetration increases but the 25% extra base remains the same, allowing burst for builds based around quick combos.  This still means, however, that to get to that crit you have to complete a combo or use a Finisher move.  The basic idea is to give some builds the choice towards criticals of this manner but still require them to play well to reach them, reaching a high potential chance to crit and high penetration but even then only for a modest additional amount of damage.

 

The Tactical crits would be situational.  These would require certain criteria to be met.  Attacking from the rear, say, 120 degrees of a character might always add 25% damage and 25% penetration.  A combo might stack a debuff of "Exposed" on a target meaning the next finisher will cause a crit automatically.  Certain CC might cause similar "exposed" or comparable debuffs.  Certain debuffs might create a ESO style Synergy (allowing the use of a special Synergy ability for other players only available on your use of one of yours) or combo effect akin to ArcheAge (+dmg to feared target, chilled targets are stunned, bleeding targets are slowed, etc). 

 

Come to think of it, a system borrowing from ESO and ArcheAge both would actually be very good, and then we can just get rid of RNG criticals entirely.  Critical hits then become a matter of combining the right skills and right debuffs into a desired result, especially since this would also have lots of room to apply to beneficial skills, as well.  Say the Druid has a special skill that increases passive health and mana/skill resource regeneration (heavier mass/armor could even give more health regen while lighter armor more mana regen) which a character under its effect could then unleash via certain class skills to use it for an instant heal at the cost of using up the regen buff.  Like, my minotaur could use some skill called, say, Inner Fury that gives me a temporary max health and mana buff, damage buff, and damage resistance buff but using that means the druid's Invigoration is used up as an instant heal, making Inner Fury a much more tactically beneficial skill to use for maximum efficiency.  I should be able to "crit" off of my own skills at best, maybe, for 40 or 50% of my total hotbar and available combo chains.  I should have to rely on other players to set up the remaining 50 or 60%, just as I would set up for them.  For example, I might be able to do huge damage and a knockup to a rooted target but have on root skills of my own, or I could have a skill that rends the enemy's armor class allowing a team mate who can't do good damage to high armor targets to combo into a finisher for great damage.  Using the Druid again, they might use Entangling Vines which slows an enemy down, but my minotaur bullrushes in and uses the Synergy skill Bind which now roots that target in place because only another player can use the synergy skill.  Now rooted, I wind up and knock the guy into the air with my Heavy Swing.

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While I know some people are against the RNG aspects of Critical Hits, I have always been in favor of them despite the fact that having them implemented the "right" way is a slippery slope. The trade-off between having them either in your spec or gear must be worthwhile in comparison to the higher average damage that you would otherwise have.

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While I know some people are against the RNG aspects of Critical Hits, I have always been in favor of them despite the fact that having them implemented the "right" way is a slippery slope. The trade-off between having them either in your spec or gear must be worthwhile in comparison to the higher average damage that you would otherwise have.

Critical Hit also adds to the effect. I have to admit, seeing consecutive critical hits is one of the most satisfying feelings.


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I don't know why there is so much hate for criticals and some RNG. As long as gearing for crit (if that is even possible) is not the only viable way to gear I don't see why it should be such an issue. 

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I don't know why there is so much hate for criticals and some RNG. As long as gearing for crit (if that is even possible) is not the only viable way to gear I don't see why it should be such an issue. 

 

Because someone winning a fight because they got better RNG is bad game design. 

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when it comes to traditional MMO tab-target class based combat.

 

 

Crits are actually fun if:

  1. they aren't random
  2. they are highly visible

"Look out!  He's got crits!"

 

180px-Revenge_Crits.png?t=20111211104856

 

This is probably the best thing to consider. TF2 really did this well.

 

BUT, if I do recall they started adding random criticals into normal shots in some patch update eventually, and it disgruntled my friend which is reasonable. You'd get the drop on them, start hammering them and they get a lucky crit in even though they were caught out on their rear.

 

It could be interesting to see combat that uses "enchant weapon" spells to add a critical timer momentarily, that's also visually indicative. If that were to happen, then crits in normal combo rotations should be out or tweaked perhaps.

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Yeah, I think they often don't get properly factored into damage output. Kinda like evasion and defense.

 

I also think it could be pretty great to see criticals often granting some additional effect. Like a sword critical causing a bleed, or a magic bolt critical causing blindness or something. Instead of criticals purely equaling critical damage.

How about this for physical weapons? 

GRIEVOUS INJURY TABLE Piercing weapons do Grievous Injuries on rolls of 01 through 20. Bladed weapons do Grievous Injuries on rolls of 21 through 80. Smashing weapons do Grievous Injuries on rolls of 70 through 100. (Some weapons do two classes of damage) D100 Result: 

01-05 Congratulations! It's a bleeder in your primary arm! Take 1 Damage Point from Endurance immediately and 1 per Pulse thereafter until the flow is staunched by a Healer of Rank 0 or above or you die.

06-07 Oh no! Your opponent's weapon has entered your secondary arm's elbow joint and the tip has broken off. Take 2 Damage Points immediately from Endurance and that arm is useless until the sliver has been removed by a Healer of Rank 3 or above. Also, increase the chance of infection by 30.

08 A vicious puncture wound in your groin! Take 3 Damage Points immediately from Endurance and reduce your TMR by 2 until fully recovered, which will take two months. In addition, add 30 to your chance of being infected (assuming you live long enough for such things to matter).

09-10 You have been stabbed in your secondary arm. Drop whatever you were holding in it and take 2 Damage Points immediately from Endurance. It will take a full week for the arm to be of any use to you whatsoever.

11 Your aorta is severed and you are quite dead. Rest assured your companions will do their best to console your widow(er).

12 A stomach puncture. Nasty. You suffer 3 Damage Points immediately from Endurance and lose 2 from your TMR until fully recovered, which will take two months. Also, you are automatically Stunned for the next Pulse (if you aren't already), after which you will recover. Add 20 to the chance to be infected.

13 Your opponent's weapon has entered your eye; roll D10. On a roll of 1, the weapon has entered your brain and you are dead. On a roll of 2-5, your left eye is blinded; on a roll of 6-10, your right eye is blinded. If you are lucky enough to be blinded instead of killed, you have suffered 2 Damage Points to Endurance. In addition, a figure who is blind in one eye suffers the following subtractions: -2 from Physical Beauty; -4 from Perception; -1 from Manual Dexterity. A figure blinded in one eye reduces his Base Chance with any Missile or Thrown Weapon by 30.

14-18 Tsk. Tsk. A wound of the solid viscera. Usually fatal. Take 3 Damage Points to Endurance immediately and 1 per Pulse thereafter until the bleeding is stopped by a Healer of Rank 2 or above or you die. Add 30 to the chance of infection.

19-20 Take a stab in the leg (your choice as to which one) resulting in a deep puncture of the thigh muscle. Suffer 1 Damage Point to Endurance immediately and reduce your TMR by 1 until you heal, which will take 4 weeks.

21-25 A chest wound. Take 2 Damage Points to Endurance immediately and reduce your TMR CHARACTER GENERATION & COMBAT, PAGE 27 by 1 until recovered (about 2 months). Look on the bright side, though. Your attacker's weapon is caught in your rib cage and has been wrenched from his grasp.

26-27 Bad luck! Your secondary hand has been severed at the wrist. Take 2 Damage Points to Endurance immediately and subtract 1 point per Pulse from Fatigue thereafter (Endurance when Fatigue is exhausted) until you are dead or the bleeding is staunched by a Healer of Rank O or above. If you live, reduce your Manual Dexterity by 2.

28-30 Worse luck! Your primary hand has been severed. See result 26-27 for effects.

31-34 A minor wound. Your face is slashed open, ruining your boyish good looks and causing blood to spurt into your eyes. Reduce your Physical Beauty by 4 permanently.

35 Your secondary arm is sliced off at the shoulder. Take 5 Damage Points immediately from Endurance and 1 per Pulse thereafter from Fatigue (Endurance when Fatigue is exhausted) until you are dead or the bleeding is staunched by a Healer or Rank 1 or above. Reduce your Manual Dexterity by 2 and your Agility by 1.

36 The same as 35, except it's your good primary arm that has been lopped off.

37-40 You have been eviscerated! Take 4 Damage Points immediately from Endurance and 1 point per Pulse from Fatigue thereafter (Endurance when Fatigue is exhausted) until you are unconscious. Increase your chance of infection by 40.

41-42 A glancing blow lays open your scalp and severs one ear (your choice as to which one). Take 2 Damage Points immediately from Endurance. Reduce your Perception by 2.

43 A savage slash rips open your cheek and jaw. Take an automatic Pass action next Pulse due to the shock of the blow. Your Physical Beauty is increased by 1, since your disfigurement will bring out the maternal/paternal instincts in the opposite gender.

44-50 A slash along one arm, and it's a bleeder! Take 2 Damage Points immediately from Endurance and lose 1 point from Fatigue (Endurance when Fatigue is exhausted) each Pulse until the bleeding is stopped by a Healer of Rank 1 or above or you die.

51-52 Hamstrung! Roll D10. On a roll of 1-4, it is your left leg. On a roll of 5-10, it is your right. Take 4 Damage Points immediately from Endurance and fall prone. You may not stand unassisted until the wound is healed (which should take three months). Reduce your Agility by 3 permanently.

53-60 Your primary arm is crippled by a wicked slash! Take 2 Damage Points immediately to Endurance and drop anything you have in your primary hand. The arm is unusable until healed, which should take 2 months.

61-67 Your secondary arm is crippled; see 53- 60 for details.

68-69 A nasty slash in the region of the shoulder and neck. Roll D10. On a roll of 1-3, your head is severed and your corpse tumbles to the ground. On a roll of 4-6, your secondary collar bone is crushed; on a roll of 7-10, your primary collar bone is crushed. If your collar bone is crushed, the results are identical to 53- 60, except you suffer 4 Damage Points to Endurance.

70-74 A crushing blow smashes your helmet and causes a concussion. Take 3 Damage Points from Endurance and suffer a reduction of 4 in both Manual Dexterity and Agility lasting for 3 days.

75-80 A massive chest wound accompanied by broken ribs and crushed tissues. Very ugly, this. Take 5 Damage Points immediately from Endurance. Reduce your Manual Dexterity and Agility by 3 each until this wound heals (should take about 4 months). Increase your chance of infection by 10.

81-84 A crushing blow smashes tissue and produces internal injuries. You suffer 2 Damage Points immediately to Endurance and 1 per Pulse thereafter to Fatigue (Endurance when Fatigue is exhausted) until unconscious or you receive the attention of a Healer of Rank 2 or above.

85-87 A jarring blow to your primary shoulder inflicts 2 Damage Points immediately to Endurance. Roll D10; the result is the number of Pulses the arm is useless. You immediately drop anything held in that hand.

88-89 Similar to 85-87 except it is your secondary shoulder.

90-92 Your right hip is smashed horribly. Take 5 Damage Points immediately to Endurance and fall prone. You will be unable to walk until the damage has healed (takes about 6 months). Good fun. When healed, you will still have a limp which will reduce your TMR by 1 and your Agility by 2.

93-94 The same as 90-92 except it is your left hip that is smashed.

95-97 Your opponent's weapon has come crashing down on your head and fractured your skull. You fall prone and are unconscious, and take 8 Damage Points to Endurance. If you survive, you lose 2 from Agility, 2 from Manual Dexterity, and 2 from Perception. It will take a year in bed to recover.

98-100 Crushing blow to your pelvis breaks bone and tears tissue. Take 7 Damage Points immediately to Endurance and fall prone. Try to roll under your Willpower on D100 to avoid falling unconscious. If you survive, you will be unable to move for D10 months. NOTES: The suggested recovery times are a guide- line for the GM's to use in determining how long characters should be kept out of action. The actions of a competent Healer may alter these times in some instances. These Grievous Injuries are designed for combat between human-sized opponents; any injuries sustained involving larger monsters should be applied judiciously by the GM, taking into account size and mass differences, etc. Simply stated, a halfling would be hard put to drive his dagger into the eye of an elephant, and in situations such as these, the GM may have to disallow the Grievous Injury or change its effects. Any damage which results from a Grievous Injury is in addition to the Endurance damage already determined.

 

This table came from Dragonquest, by SPI games. It is IMO, the greatest table-top game ever designed. Who wants to see the spell backfire table?


I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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Random crits no matter how low the chance should not be a part of the game. You could on the other hand make use of the combo system to add, if you do this ability that makes your oppenent "slower" your next attack does 20-50% more damage (basicly a crit) but you are still activly doing it not just a randomly generated luck based crit.


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