Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
tsp_maj

A random addiction

Recommended Posts

I'm curious who you're identifying as the whales.

 

I'm good enough with math to know that I don't have enough disposable income to be purchasing cash shop mystery boxes.

 

Further, just because I believe in the value of RNGs in simulations doesn't mean that I have any illusions about my personal relationship with RNGs.

 

They hate me.

 

I've played many board games that incorporate both RNGs (dice, cards, etc) and skill.  Over the years it has been not just my observation, but also the observation of those I play with regularly, that the more severe the RNG (i.e. dice being a "harder" RNG than cards) the more likely it is that I'll get the short end of the stick.

 

It's gotten to the point where we evaluate the effectiveness of new randomizer mechanics based on how frequently they dole out to me unusually poor results, declaring the method to be "fair" if my outcomes are worse than the expected results by a statistically significant margin.

 

lol


gtlLXYT.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good, now the underdog can win 1 fight out of 10.. while normal fights between equally skilled players are gonna end with a random winner each time.

Normal fights between equally skilled players should have random (i.e. unpredictable) winners each time anyway, otherwise they either aren't "normal" fights or "equally skilled" players.

 

But, I understand what you're getting at.  There's a difference between winning 50% of the time for no discernible reason and winning 50% of the time because of how you played.

 

And it's an important difference, since it contributes directly to the feedback loop necessary for the player to improve their skill at the game (as opposed to their character's skill).

 

That's why I suggested earlier that if it were possible to reduce the magnitude of RNG in proportional to the calculated disparity in skill between the players then it would be in favor of doing so.

 

The more reasons NOT to have RNG.

There is already a chance of being hit by a meteorite while playing, or more likely to be disturbed by the family. :lol:

 

Compared with "normal" sport competitions, video games have extremely few player inputs with very little to distinguish a "perfect" performance from one that is "merely adequate".

 

Consider hitting a baseball with a bat.  In most games it is purely a matter of timing for a single button-press, so the only player-introduced variable is how close to the ideal timing they were.  In the real world it's a complex orchestration of many muscle groups in the arms, legs, back, etc, all contributing to not just the timing of the swing but also the angle, strength, and follow-through.

 

Even state-of-the-art motion-sensing controls are significantly poorer in terms of input provided to the system than the real world is.

 

ACE is talking about combat mechanics where you have windows of time in which to chain skills together into combos.  Sure there's the meta-game of which move to execute next, but once that is done it comes down to not much more than pushing the right button within the correct time window in order to have the move play out exactly the same 100% of the time, that just doesn't feel right to me.  It feels like a thin cardboard simulation.

 

Maybe I'm just arguing this position because I don't expect to be as skilled of a player as many (I'm not 40 yet, but I can see it from where I am), and I know that precise no-RNG systems tend to greatly favor player skill even more than systems with an RNG do, but I'd like to think that it's because I've felt dissatisfied with RNG-less combat even in single player games.


soli deo gloria

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

do you know psyctooth??? i think you 2 would get along

 

I don't recall crossing paths with him yet.  Based on his profile we just might.


soli deo gloria

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

High End poker may have more factors than just chance, but it doesn't make it any less a game of chance. Just because you understand the odds and can play a better social game doesn't mean you win by skill alone, luck still has to be on your side. The right cards need to draw for you to win.

 

 

I get that it exists, that doesn't mean it should.

 

Trying really hard to think about a sport that has RNG built in. Could you help me find one?

I'd say Baseball has an RNG factor to it.  Pitcher throws the same Fast ball to the same Hitter 10 times but the hitter only makes contact once out of those 10. Why? Did he all of a sudden get good at the game. Was the pitch exactly the same though? A Slight wind, is it humid or cold out all have effects on how a baseball travels and can in fact be considered RNG. If not for RNG then you have a game where a really good pitcher never allows a hit and really good hitter never misses a pitch. Baseball is already a slow sport to watch and that would make it totally unwatchable IMO. There's no suspense no excitement as you will know what happens before it starts.

 

Now granted RNG shouldn't be THE determining factor as player skill should be more important but like the baseball example even a Pro baseball player relies on some luck to be successful sometimes and it adds a level of excitement as you can't allows know what'll happen.

Edited by pang

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

None of that is RNG, that is all physics.

Whether its physics or a stat pool you can adjust, there is something that makes it so its not the same outcome every time. That's essentially what RNG is. Can call it random if you want but its not really as there are factors that go into it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A RNG isn't technically random either. :/

 

Random Number Generation isnt random ok good 2 no

 

custard me sidesway what are algorithms and variables then

Edited by Lastgirl~

The most important thing is to enjoy your life - to be happy - it's all that matters. - Audrey Hepburn “:♡.•♬✧⁽⁽ଘ( ˊᵕˋ )ଓ⁾⁾*+:•*∴
Read more at brainyquote.com/search_results.html#KTJ4dHyeiltlKOTM.99

mz_Yr9k_I.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A RNG isn't technically random either. :/

Random within the parameters set in place. if a sword does 24-26 damage, you should see 33.3% overtime on average for 24, 25 and 26. If one is significantly different, something is wrong.

 

RNG is all about probability.

Edited by Adall

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Guys, he's talking about seeds. He meant that currently there's no human machine able to generate true random numbers.

 

That's why I suggested earlier that if it were possible to reduce the magnitude of RNG in proportional to the calculated disparity in skill between the players then it would be in favor of doing so.

 

Then you're basically messing with how skills influence damage output... I don't understand the need for RNG in your example, honestly!

Edited by Fenris DDevil

y9tj8G5.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Random within the parameters set in place. if a sword does 24-26 damage, you should see 33.3% overtime on average for 24, 25 and 26. If one is significantly different, something is wrong.

 

Exactly- But you are explaining away the randomness in sports that allows for these same variations by saying "but physics", when in games you provide a variation and you say "but algorithm". A game is, on some level, just a simulation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Exactly- But you are explaining away the randomness in sports that allows for these same variations by saying "but physics", when in games you provide a variation and you say "but algorithm". A game is, on some level, just a simulation.

Yeah that's what I was trying to get at. Just didn't explain well I guess.

 

A Pitchers pitches are not all going to be exactly the same. A players sword swings are not all going to do the same exact damage. Doesn't matter what is effecting it, gravity, weather, numbers in a stat pool its the same concept.

 

Its also similar in the fact that player skill isn't the only factor to determine the outcome, the biggest factor, sure but not the only. Can be the best player in the world but sometimes the ball bounce's funny and you still lose. That's not a bad thing, that helps add excitement and suspense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A GAME WITHOUT ANY INHERENT RANDOM-NESS IS PRE-DECIDED EVERY TIME

A GAME WHERE RANDOM-NESS DOMINATES EFFECTIVELY RENDERS THE PLAYER IRRELEVANT

 

AS WITH MANY THINGS, THE ANSWER LIES IN THE BALANCE


Hardcore gamer & tabletop enthusiast. Enjoys roleplaying, pretending to be stupid, and one-sided fun.

Goodposting 101: How to Keep the Forums Clean

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A GAME WITHOUT ANY INHERENT RANDOM-NESS IS PRE-DECIDED EVERY TIME

A GAME WHERE RANDOM-NESS DOMINATES EFFECTIVELY RENDERS THE PLAYER IRRELEVANT

 

AS WITH MANY THINGS, THE ANSWER LIES IN THE BALANCE

 

It's only pre-decided if both players make the exact same series of inpts, in the exact same order, at the exact same time, in the exact same environment, under the exact same starting and environmental conditions.

 

By this logic there would have only ever been a handful of street fighter 2 matches ever played. Yet, somehow, every fighting game uses the same basic logic of two players, full input control, and no RNG values.

 

And somehow it isn't pre-decided every time and you can spend an entire afternoon playing street fighter against just your one roomate and each match plays out significantly differently.

 

Crowfall's combat system has a lot more in common with fighting games than it does with most MMOs. You're looking at a much higher count of decisions per second than a tab targeted system, or a fighting game, but with a slower reaction time window than said fighting game, and a lot more external variables.

 

This means it's a lot more like a slower fighting game with more buttons and character creation options than it is a tab targeting RPG with faster combat and occasional aiming.

Edited by PopeUrban

PopeSigGIF.gif

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's only pre-decided if both players make the exact same series of inpts, in the exact same order, at the exact same time, in the exact same environment, under the exact same starting and environmental conditions.

 

By this logic there would have only ever been a handful of street fighter 2 matches ever played. Yet, somehow, every fighting game uses the same basic logic of two players, full input control, and no RNG values.

 

And somehow it isn't pre-decided every time and you can spend an entire afternoon playing street fighter against just your one roomate and each match plays out significantly differently.

 

Crowfall's combat system has a lot more in common with fighting games than it does with most MMOs. You're looking at a much higher count of decisions per second than a tab targeted system, or a fighting game, but with a slower reaction time window than said fighting game, and a lot more external variables.

 

This means it's a lot more like a slower fighting game with more buttons and character creation options than it is a tab targeting RPG with faster combat and occasional aiming.

 

I have a few things to say about this but I'll try to keep it short.  Take a scenario where you have three water-fountains lined up next to each other.  Now, one at a time, tell 100 people to go get a drink.  The results may very slightly but you will see a relative average of use on each water-fountain.  The point is, although each individuals choice may not have been random, we still would look at this data as being random because no one water-fountain was favored over the others.  Now, instead of having them go individually, have them go three at a time.  While the first and second persons choices could be considered random the third person has had their options limited to one.   

 

Games like street fighter can be analyzed using the same concept.  To oversimplify lets say that at every given millisecond you have three choices to make, depending on the actions of your opponent one or two of those choices may be removed, like people blocking the water-fountain, leading you to react a specific and often predictable way.  In fact when your options are not limited the key to success in many of these games is to act randomly, and thus unpredictably. 

 

Keep in mind that we're talking about the randomness of human nature and that's sliding pretty far off topic.

 

Comparing a game like Crowfall to a game like Street Fighter isn't even like comparing apples to oranges, its more like comparing apples to rocking chairs... they both kinda have a curvy side?.. nevermind. 

 

Here's why.  Street fighter is a 1v1 game, like ping pong.  Its only remotely fun when your opponent is relatively close to your own skill level where you win about as much as you'd lose.  The greater the disparity between the players the less fun it becomes for BOTH players.  This luxury of selecting your opponent does not exist in a seamless open world PVP MMO such as CF.  The random elements such as crits enable a great player to lose and a crap player to win every once and a while, just enough to keep both players going. 

 

Finally, about the claim that action combat = more decisions per second over other systems.  I don't think this could be further from the truth but I'm willing to hear your argument.  I'd also argue that more decisions per second is not necessarily better.  Perhaps another time.

Edited by tsp_maj

Maj, Keeper of Da Plank - The Shipwrecked Pirates

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ran across this for you visual learners.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9ZI9kMsvRQ

 

I watched the video in 2014 and loved it.

 

One has to be very careful when drawing conclusions, though. RNG is awesome when players are able to weigh risks and rewards, not all the times.

In the video he does specify that victory mechanisms have to be built around RNG.. and he makes the example of HOTS where the only possible competitive scenario is an all-play-all tournament. Yet the game is built on single-round eliminations.

 

Poker is different from a Crowfall campaign also. Players twist luck over a series of games by faking hands, while betting money.

You have a bad hand, and you choice to fold or bet a huge sum of money to scare off your opponents.

That doesn't happen in Crowfall, you don't get to decide when to fight if you're being engaged, and what to gamble (your loot).

 

How can RNG benefit games and MMOs in particular? Exactly like it does in DOTA.. pseudo-RNG and RNG builds.

Basically let players decide when to gamble (aka don't force RNG on every output damage), and make it balanced.

Edited by Fenris DDevil

y9tj8G5.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...