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Sinij

30 minutes gameplay

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This has nothing to do with CoD, I am basing myself on my UO experience back from 1997/1998

 

I just used it as a reference game of choice, since it has negative impacts on PvP MMOs like PlanetSide 2.  You could use any small PvP ... short length arena type gameplay... and those players seem to want the same experience in larger scale PvP MMOs and it's destructive.  PvP sandbox MMOs is a niche that shouldn't target this audience, which shouldn't be looking at an MMO that may require more time of their schedule.


> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

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Because you're wanting a handicap for something that players can do on their own.  Guilds will have scouts/scout groups that will relay this information back to those leading the guild op.

I really take offense to your kneejerking and comparing me to some Call of Duty kid; That's just plain rude.

 

Certain people in this thread want instant-gratification combat. Log in, kill something, log out, done, no real commitment. That's going to happen no matter what you, I, or anyone at ACE says or does. You're going to do it, I'm going to do it, your guild leader is going to do it, whatever.

 

If you played Shadowbane, you know that there's always someone on Oblivion or Maelstrom or Phaedra's Prize looking for a fight. If you played Eve, you know that there's always someone in Tama or Rancer or Old Man Star who's looking for a fight. Essentially, that's all it is. Log in, run over to your rival's city, fly over the walls, murder people until they kick you out. Boom, instant pvp.

 

What I want isn't a handicap; It's an official implementation of something we were all going to do anyway; that is, tracking hotspots. So, by giving us the tools to find these people, by giving us tools to find areas of high activity, areas of ongoing battles, areas where people are farming mobs, we address the issue of "I want to find fights" without hitting any of the typical pitfalls. We still have to actually find these places, we still have to move there, we can avoid them if we choose, we're still making a commitment to that specific engagement, it just cuts the "Search" phase from "Run around the map until..." to "Look at the map with X, Y, and Z"

 

Edit:

 

A good PvP oriented sandbox should provide opportunity for both large and small scale PvP. You shouldn't need to get 20 people together in order to have fun.

Basically this.

Edited by Psyentific

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You could jump on and set up skill training on a few characters in 30 minutes. Or do EK stuff. Probably wouldn't have time to do anything in a campaign but still.


 

 

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We are talking about a FFA campaign, well at least I am. The thing is that even in FFA you are very likely to have a stationary residence. Be it your guilds fort, a house or whatever, the relatively safe spot. This is how it was in about every other PvP game I have played. The goal is to get fro your "residence" to the known PvP hotspots and possibly cycle through them fast enough, when you have limited time.

And logging out in the wilderness in the middle of a battle or near it, with all the stuff and lewtz on you is not a very good idea in general.

 

I don't see your approach working in CF within limited timeframes.  This concept of cycling through the known PvP hotspots - I think that you're thinking of game generated, permanent PvP areas rather than emergent areas that will show up because of player interest.  CF is a fluid world, with patterns that develop based on player interactions usually based around the POI's. 

 

Since I've been cleaning out my head and tossing my love for PVE into the flames fairly often these last few months I've gotten pretty good at ID'ing what I'm after in the game vs what I'm used to using to get it and then figuring out how to get what I'm after in the CF sandbox.  So you're after challenging, fun PvP that you can immerse yourself in within a 30 minute timeframe.  You're used to logging into your base, cycling through the known PvP spots then logging back out at your base and that's how you get that fun PvP. 

 

So how can you get that PvP experience without having to have game generated PvP areas?  How do you get food, new gear, offload phat lootz, if you're not near your base?  How can you max out your time in game when that time is 30 minutes?

 

The OP has the approach that the devs need to keep this in mind when moving forward with the game but I'm of the opinion that there's enough flexibility in the game for players to find that same fun without the devs needing to build a structure within the game unless it's actually needed.

 

So my thoughts are more about what you can do as a player to set up the game experience that you're after because it's such an open, flexible world.  Here's what went through my head - my non expert in PvP squishycore head.  Your base will not be a solo base - it will be a group or guild base and few players IMO will play strictly solo.  Smart groups will establish supply lines, prepare loot caches in advance, and regear outliers that need it.   We're not sure if we can tunnel and then seal the entrance after we go inside  - if so then logging out near a battle is no issue.  If you do stick to one spot then after 2 or 3 logins folks will know you're there and you'll have to move to another.  Getting in and out of the base may be harder than usual since all larger bases are likely to be PvP hubs with folks testing defenses and scoping out the competition. There may be plenty of PvP there at the base itself.

 

On top of all of this is the actual set of win conditions that you and your group are working towards.  That will impact where you want to PvP and what you're after winning/owning/holding/transporting.  Whether or not you and your guild can actually win a campaign in 30 minute increments remains to be seen but I'm doubtful.

 

I hear what you're saying.  I just think that the more flexible and less rigid crowfall is the more fun players can have setting up the experience we want to have ingame.  And I do think that we've got the creativity and intelligence to develop ways to play that will allow for insanely fun and challenging PvP within shorter time windows.  There's nothing in CF to stop anyone from doing that.

 


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I'm not entirely sure where the linear game play hand holding mention came from so I'm not going to address that portion of your post.  

 

You are right that I could use weaker language.  I could say that if ACE wants the game to be good and to make them money so that they can continue to make a living and more importantly make this game to their vision, they should probably take into consideration how their core player base plays the game.  

 

This is not my opinion.  This is how games become successful.  

 

The developers need a good concept (check), they need to understand who they are making the game for (check), they need to understand what a play session looks like from the average player (what is being discussed), and they need actually produce fun game play and mechanics (fingers crossed).  And let me clarify 'average player' by saying the average player within ACE's target demographic. 

 

Now THIS is my opinion.  I imagine their target audience is 16-35 males.  I think that's who would be most interested in a game like that (there will obviously be exceptions).  If you look at that range its really clear that most of those people probably do stuff other than play games, for example working.  This is where the "they need to understand what a play session looks like from the average player" comes in to the equation.  

 

From my own experience (24 years of age, full time job, girlfriend, pets), I don't have any time to play in the morning nor can I play for the ten hours from 9am-7pm.  Then, I like to spend time with my girlfriend and take care of my pets.  Now I have like 30 min to two hours to play something.  

 

What I am not saying is that the developers NEED to change their sandbox concept into something different or add a feature to cater to me.  What I am saying is that there is a probability that a majority of the average players lead a similar life style (give or take some time).  As such ACE NEEDS (yes, needs) to be incredibly considerate of the amount of time their players will spend on average playing their game and develop a good experience around what ACE determines is a minimum play time.

The mistake you are making is , mixing real-life into gaming. Each game, by their design , have some "playtime", for mobas, this is length of a match , which is 20 munites. For csgo , this would be time it takes to complete a competitive match , 30 ish munites. For KF2 , well you have 3 options.

 

But for MMO's, this time is generally time it takes to accomplish a goal, which is anywhere from 10 munites to 10 hours. One does not make a succesfull MMO by choosing a set amount of "play-time". You can make some sort of a multiplayer experiance have set "play-time" but you cannot make an MMO have this set amount of play-time. Because your goals take months to accomplish (winning campaign).

Having a "set time" in this case, requires them to make some kind of battleground or raid -like mini-game. Which is aganist their design goals. They are making an open world sandbox PvP game. Whether you can have fun in 30 munites or not, depends on you. Do you have fun from mining resources? Do it for 30 munites. Do you enjoy seeing player-made buildings? 30 mins definenlty enough. Do you enjoy killing some newbs? Well, even 30 seconds is enough for that.

 

MMO's are about having worlds with ton of objectives, it is all dependant on the player especially if the game is sandbox. You cannot and should not try to have a set time in an MMO. That is not how MMO's function. And no im not talking about multiplayer pve game called WoW.

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MMO's are about having worlds with ton of objectives, it is all dependant on the player especially if the game is sandbox. You cannot and should not try to have a set time in an MMO. That is not how MMO's function. And no im not talking about multiplayer pve game called WoW.

I disagree; If anything, you should have multiple 'set times'. Give me something I can do in 30m, something I can do in an hour, something I can do in an afternoon and something I can do in a weekend. Something I can do myself, something I can do with my friends, something I can do with my guild, and so on.

 

The structuring that that time-budgeting provides will help shape different playstyles, as well as providing content for various types of players.

Edited by Psyentific

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I disagree; If anything, you should have multiple 'set times'. Give me something I can do in 30m, something I can do in an hour, something I can do in an afternoon and something I can do in a weekend. Something I can do myself, something I can do with my friends, something I can do with my guild, and so on.

 

The structuring that that time-budgeting provides will help shape different playstyles, as well as providing content for various types of players.

Im not saying this game wont have set-times, im saying those set-times will depend on players. So they are "variable". But they will act as constants for each campaign.

 

A caravan example would explain this;

Campaign a = 

2 differnt cities that established a safe road between themselves, making a caravan run is safe and takes only 10 munites.

 

Campaign b =

The roads are unsafe and there is 30 munite of running between 2 cities, you can only accomplish that objective with a guard group in your side.

 

In fact those times can even chance inside a campaign as weeks pass. They are momenteryly 'constants' that continiously chance with time.

Edited by Eren

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...You are right that I could use weaker language.  I could say that if ACE wants the game to be good and to make them money so that they can continue to make a living and more importantly make this game to their vision, they should probably take into consideration how their core player base plays the game.  

 

This is not my opinion.  This is how games become successful.  

 

The developers need a good concept (check), they need to understand who they are making the game for (check), they need to understand what a play session looks like from the average player (what is being discussed), and they need actually produce fun game play and mechanics (fingers crossed).  And let me clarify 'average player' by saying the average player within ACE's target demographic. 

 

Not sure why you don't trust Ace to collectively know about their industry and player demographics without a lesson from your wealth of knowledge.  This isn't their first rodeo, or second, or third...

 

Now THIS is my opinion.  I imagine their target audience is 16-35 males.  I think that's who would be most interested in a game like that (there will obviously be exceptions).  If you look at that range its really clear that most of those people probably do stuff other than play games, for example working.  This is where the "they need to understand what a play session looks like from the average player" comes in to the equation.  

 

From my own experience (24 years of age, full time job, girlfriend, pets), I don't have any time to play in the morning nor can I play for the ten hours from 9am-7pm.  Then, I like to spend time with my girlfriend and take care of my pets.  Now I have like 30 min to two hours to play something.  

 

What I am not saying is that the developers NEED to change their sandbox concept into something different or add a feature to cater to me.  What I am saying is that there is a probability that a majority of the average players lead a similar life style (give or take some time).  As such ACE NEEDS (yes, needs) to be incredibly considerate of the amount of time their players will spend on average playing their game and develop a good experience around what ACE determines is a minimum play time.

 

 

Yes, you're making assumptions at what their target audience is and at 24 think you know more about PvP MMO demographics than the developer is aware of.  I can tell you, based on my experience, is that you're going to go through cycles in life that affect the amount of time you have available.  This impacts every person differently and everyone is at different ages as well (I wouldn't be surprised to find that the demographic is actually closer to 25-50).  

 

Again, It's not the developer's responsibility to build a game to cater to everyone.  Rather, it's the responsibility of the individual gamer to select the game that fits their current schedule.  

 

Personally, I've gone through periods of time where I'm able to play an MMO, while others, lucky to get 15-30 minutes on a mobile game.  I know when I have time to invest in a MMO and when I should stick to smaller and shorter games, or RTS games that I can pick up, save, and continue later.

 

This really isn't a difficult concept to grasp... unfortunately, it does mean that you may miss out on some games because real life requires more investment, which is a far better time investment and you're a better person because of it.  Just accept it and move on.  When time availability increases in the future, then you can pick up CF, SC, or whatever else cool is out at that time.  You're only 24, it's not like gaming is coming to an end in 4 years.  You'll probably be 26 (and possibly with a child) by time CF releases.  I wouldn't be concerned over things you don't have control over, nor makes sense to demand the developers to change.


> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

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Im not saying this game wont have set-times, im saying those set-times will depend on players. So they are "variable". But they will act as constants for each campaign.

 

A caravan example would explain this;

Campaign a = 

2 differnt cities that established a safe road between themselves, making a caravan run is safe and takes only 10 munites.

 

Campaign b =

The roads are unsafe and there is 30 munite of running between 2 cities, you can only accomplish that objective with a guard group in your side.

They'll absolutely depend on players, but the general time scale will be the same. If I'm good, I can cut 30m down to 15, or if it's really hectic then I might need the afternoon and a bit of the evening. Likewise, as you said, maybe the campaign rules will factor in to that, and what would normally be a quickie milk run is an arduous trek through harsh wilderness.


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Maybe I was unclear in my last post (or last few posts). I don't want a time limit.  I'm saying what Psyentific just said very well.  There should be some way for me (and the thousands of players like me) to have fun with a short amount of time.  Yes, I can mine for 30 min or go look at buildings or go fight people.  All of that is fun and great, please ACE let me do those things.  But I need to be able to log in, get to that place to do those things, and then get somewhere else to log out safely in 30 min (doesn't have to be 30 min but that's the thread title).  I don't mind doing all of that in the short time, it just needs to flow nice.


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I disagree; If anything, you should have multiple 'set times'. Give me something I can do in 30m, something I can do in an hour, something I can do in an afternoon and something I can do in a weekend. Something I can do myself, something I can do with my friends, something I can do with my guild, and so on.

 

The structuring that that time-budgeting provides will help shape different playstyles, as well as providing content for various types of players.

This already exists.  It's built in by default due to the diversity of the ingame choices and options and I don't see any need for the devs to purposely build timed experiences since we all have varying timeframes anyway based on our skillsets.   Exploring, crafting, PvP, building, seiging, puttering in the EK, decorating, harvesting, caravaning - there are so many things to do in the game and so much to learn that it's likely to be more a matter of too many choices than what can I do in 30/45/90 minutes?

 

The OP is after a specific PvP experience within a narrow timeframe however.  There's a request to create a structure within the game to deliver that experience within that timeframe and I think that the experience can be had within the timeframe with a bit of thought and planning on the part of the players already.


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The OP is after a specific PvP experience within a narrow timeframe however.  There's a request to create a structure within the game to deliver that experience within that timeframe and I think that the experience can be had within the timeframe with a bit of thought and planning on the part of the players already.

Yes; What the OP wants is a flavor of Battlegrounds. Queue up, go into a fight, get some loot at the end, just tweak that general concept to fit into a non-instanced scenario.

 

Most of us vehemently disagree with that, myself included. However, quick-access PvP does have its niche, and we'd be foolish to disregard it purely out of elitism. The more accessible we can make PvP, the better; The easier it is to drop in, have fun, drop out, the better. Thus, it should be easy to find a fight, and players should be given tools that make it fairly easy to find a fight.

 

Thus, map filters. A set of overlays I can switch on and off that will show me where the people are and where the fights are.

Edited by Psyentific

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Not sure why you don't trust Ace to collectively know about their industry and player demographics without a lesson from your wealth of knowledge.  This isn't their first rodeo, or second, or third...

 

Yes, you're making assumptions at what their target audience is and at 24 think you know more about PvP MMO demographics than the developer is aware of.  I can tell you, based on my experience, is that you're going to go through cycles in life that affect the amount of time you have available.  This impacts every person differently and everyone is at different ages as well (I wouldn't be surprised to find that the demographic is actually closer to 25-50).  

 

Again, It's not the developer's responsibility to build a game to cater to everyone.  Rather, it's the responsibility of the individual gamer to select the game that fits their current schedule.  

 

Personally, I've gone through periods of time where I'm able to play an MMO, while others, lucky to get 15-30 minutes on a mobile game.  I know when I have time to invest in a MMO and when I should stick to smaller and shorter games, or RTS games that I can pick up, save, and continue later.

 

This really isn't a difficult concept to grasp... unfortunately, it does mean that you may miss out on some games because real life requires more investment, which is a far better time investment and you're a better person because of it.  Just accept it and move on.  When time availability increases in the future, then you can pick up CF, SC, or whatever else cool is out at that time.  You're only 24, it's not like gaming is coming to an end in 4 years.  You'll probably be 26 (and possibly with a child) by time CF releases.  I wouldn't be concerned over things you don't have control over, nor makes sense to demand the developers to change.

 

I agree with you on most of what you are saying.  I don't really appreciate the snide comments to my person but that's unimportant. I do trust the devs and I'm not trying to impart my great wisdom on to them, promise.  

 

My attempt in this thread has been to agree with the original poster in that there ought to be a roughly, or clearly, defined minimum amount of time to experience fun game play. It doesn't have to be convenient for me but I would like for that amount of time to be within my means. 


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Yes; What the OP wants is a flavor of Battlegrounds.

 

I feel my name has been sufficiently besmirched at this point that I should correct the record. I don't want battleground per se. I want something to do if I have limited time.

 

When I played SB, often times you'd log in and ask in guild "anything going on?". Often you'd get response back, get summoned into a rowing gank group and have fun rolling people. The times when that doesn't happen, or people just leveling, make me very very sad, because if I have limited time there is no way I can put a group together and get anywhere with it.

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I feel my name has been sufficiently besmirched at this point that I should correct the record. I don't want battleground per se. I want something to do if I have limited time.

 

When I played SB, often times you'd log in and ask in guild "anything going on?". Often you'd get response back, get summoned into a rowing gank group and have fun rolling people. The times when that doesn't happen, or people just leveling, make me very very sad, because if I have limited time there is no way I can put a group together and get anywhere with it.

and posters have suggested things time limited players can partake in. The way the game is designed by what we have heard will offer options. There will be many objectives and not just city and keep sieges. POIs, fighting for them, holding, Caravans escorting, attacking them to name a few.

 

Any kind of instancing, or queuing is just not what this game is about.

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Any kind of instancing, or queuing is just not what this game is about.

 

We have no idea what this game is about. I know we all want SB2, but we already have clear message (e.g. EK) that this won't happen. Also, SB wasn't perfect. We remember good parts, but there were plenty of times when it was boring.

 

I played scout, I remember running for what felt like forever looking for someone for my group to fight. I don't want to spend quite as much time just running around, been there, done that. I now value my time a lot more.

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We have no idea what this game is about. I know we all want SB2, but we already have clear message (e.g. EK) that this won't happen. Also, SB wasn't perfect. We remember good parts, but there were plenty of times when it was boring.

We have lots of ideas what this game is about. Where it gets a little murky isn't the who, what, or where, but the how, and that's mostly because they're still working on it.

 

 

I played scout, I remember running for what felt like forever looking for someone for my group to fight. I don't want to spend quite as much time just running around, been there, done that. I now value my time a lot more.

 

See:

 

So why don't the devs give us some Eve-esque map filters to help us find our own PvP; "Players killed in last 24 hours", "Combats started in last 60m", "Number of players in last 24h", "Number of players in last 60m", "Number of mobs killed in last 24h", "Number of mobs killed in last 60m", and so forth.

 

Crowfall is all about giving us the tools to make our own fun; If I've got this overlay I can put on the map to show me how 'hot' a given area is, then I don't need anything else to find someone to murder.


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We have no idea what this game is about. I know we all want SB2, but we already have clear message (e.g. EK) that this won't happen. Also, SB wasn't perfect. We remember good parts, but there were plenty of times when it was boring.

 

I played scout, I remember running for what felt like forever looking for someone for my group to fight. I don't want to spend quite as much time just running around, been there, done that. I now value my time a lot more.

wut?...http://crowfall.com/#/faq

 

We know enough to say PvP won't just be city sieges and randomly running around hoping to bump into other players.

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