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Deioth

Super, Ultimate, and otherwise high-cooldown abilities

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They should do it with meter gain and prerequisites. I always thought that MMOs should have anti-zerg comeback mechanics. Each archetype can have different types of meters as well.

 

https://youtu.be/89nNsPUhewc

https://youtu.be/j8N-c8H0pgw

 

Ehh, every time I have seen anit-zerg comeback methods implemented, they've come with their own set of problems and abuses.

 

Not saying there isn't a better solution out there, just that it needs to be done right.


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They should do it with meter gain and prerequisites. I always thought that MMOs should have anti-zerg comeback mechanics. Each archetype can have different types of meters as well.

 

https://youtu.be/89nNsPUhewc

https://youtu.be/j8N-c8H0pgw

 

So what you're saying is the game should reward the inability to raise armies and make friends.

 

That's a great way to design a social game about nations and armies.

 

MMOs already have those mechanics. It's called gathering up all the people sick of being outnumbered so you've got a comparable force.

 

Crowfall specifically designs this to be something everyone has a real chance at by having campaigns end to remove the entrenchment/stockpiling that allows winners to keep competition from forming.

Edited by PopeUrban

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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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So what you're saying is the game should reward the inability to raise armies and make friends.

 

That's a great way to design a social game about nations and armies.

 

MMOs already have those mechanics. It's called gathering up all the people sick of being outnumbered so you've got a comparable force.

 

Crowfall specifically designs this to be something everyone has a real chance at by having campaigns end to remove the entrenchment/stockpiling that allows winners to keep competition from forming.

 

No, what I said is what I said. It's typed in black and white. The topic is cool down abilities, and I brought up using a unique rage meter that can be coupled with some prerequisites to pull off various attacks/skills. I attached videos from some FGs as loose examples. I proceeded to say how I always thought MMOs should have a zerg comeback ability that could be used.

 

You didn't ask what I meant and proceeded to go off on your own rant, which has nothing to do with my statement. There will always be population imbalance but I believe if an outnumbered group out-thinks and outplays the larger group they should have a reasonable chance to turn he tide.

 

A campaign beginning and ending has nothing to do with that from a combat standpoint IMO.

Edited by 8olphCaesar

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I agree, and I'd extend it even further to avoid having much cooldown at all, and eliminate basic attacks altogether to focus more on variations of attack with different uses and benefits.

 

Many solo action games have a variety of attacks all which excel in different ways and can be freely executed. They typically combo up to powerful completion moves if you follow through the entire combo, and attacks can be chosen or altered mid way based on the effect you require.

 

Instead of basing the system off of MMORPG gameplay where basic attacks are just a continuous pecking motion between meaningful skill use, action combat can improve by making the skills and attacks one system where you pick from a variation of attacks based on situational need rather than ability availability than situation.

 

Attacks like this can be more deliberate, while also averaging out the low damage of basic attacks and the high damage or effects of skills. With a more action based combat scheme comes more consistent use of meaningful actions rather than a mix of meaningless actions with occasional flashes of meaningful ones.

 

Powerful attacks can be limited and balanced against other circumstances, like protracted wind up animations or maintained channeling which can be interrupted, liabilities like vulnerability to counters or built in shortcomings of other natures, resource costs, exhaustion periods, and so on.

 

It would be nice if an action MMO was actually an action game, with RPG elements, not an RPG with action elements.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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No, what I said is what I said. It's typed in black and white. The topic is cool down abilities, and I brought up using a unique rage meter that can be coupled with some prerequisites to pull off various attacks/skills. I attached videos from some FGs as loose examples. I proceeded to say how I always thought MMOs should have a zerg comeback ability that could be used.

 

You didn't ask what I meant and proceeded to go off on your own rant, which has nothing to do with my statement. There will always be population imbalance but I believe if an outnumbered group out-thinks and outplays the larger group they should have a reasonable chance to turn he tide.

 

A campaign beginning and ending has nothing to do with that from a combat standpoint IMO.

 

And I replied to what you said, in black and white. Specifically this bit.

 

 

I always thought that MMOs should have anti-zerg comeback mechanics.

 

But I'll break it down to one line so this is all cleared up.

 

MMOs already have those mechanics. It's called gathering up all the people sick of being outnumbered so you've got a comparable force.

 

The post was to address this point specifically. This mythical "small force that deserves a chance" can already outplay the larger force, up to a reasonable point, in every MMO in existance. The difference is that they have to actually outplay the larger force. Seems to me you're asking for some kind of cookie for being outnumbered.

 

There will always be population imbalance. Giving out cookies for being outnumbered won't change the fact that most 'zergs' you're likely to encounter are usually just as 'skilled' as the smaller force. The difference is they're better at recruiting, politics, and generally playing the all important army building game.

 

If they're good enough to fight outnumbered they don't need a special cookie, and if they're not they don't deserve one.

 

My apologies if you think it was directed as a personal attack or something. I don't know you well enough to insult you, and I have no intention to.


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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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And I replied to what you said, in black and white. Specifically this bit.

 

 

 

But I'll break it down to one line so this is all cleared up.

 

 

The post was to address this point specifically. This mythical "small force that deserves a chance" can already outplay the larger force, up to a reasonable point, in every MMO in existance. The difference is that they have to actually outplay the larger force. Seems to me you're asking for some kind of cookie for being outnumbered.

 

There will always be population imbalance. Giving out cookies for being outnumbered won't change the fact that most 'zergs' you're likely to encounter are usually just as 'skilled' as the smaller force. The difference is they're better at recruiting, politics, and generally playing the all important army building game.

 

If they're good enough to fight outnumbered they don't need a special cookie, and if they're not they don't deserve one.

 

My apologies if you think it was directed as a personal attack or something. I don't know you well enough to insult you, and I have no intention to.

 

You keep on referring to the mechanic I'm suggesting as some undeserved cookie or piece of entitlement. You're also assuming the worst about a feature that doesn't even exist. That's what I'm not understanding. How is a meter a player has to build and prerequisites to use different skills with it a "cookie". I'm speaking from a combat standpoint. 

Edited by 8olphCaesar

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You keep on referring to the mechanic I'm suggesting as some undeserved cookie or piece of entitlement. You're also assuming the worst about a feature that doesn't even exist. That's what I'm not understanding. How is a meter a player has to build and prerequisites to use different skills with it a "cookie". I'm speaking from a combat standpoint. 

 

You specifically referred to it as an "anti-zerg comeback mechanic" which pretty clearly expresses the intent of your idea. Considering that's all any of the contents of the forums are (ideas) we may only judge them from that perspective.


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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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You specifically referred to it as an "anti-zerg comeback mechanic" which pretty clearly expresses the intent of your idea. Considering that's all any of the contents of the forums are (ideas) we may only judge them from that perspective.

I'm inclined to agree.  I think you made a poor choice of words if your intent was to offer anything other than an "I Win" mechanic, 8olph.  Anti-zerg needs to be a matter of tactics and strategy, not I Win buttons.  If you meant powerful AOE to use against tight clusters, that wouldn't be every ultimate or super ability, and shouldn't be an I Win by virtue of its use almost automatically.

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I kind of enjoy those "oh crap" moments from high CD abilities.  Not only do they allow for really impactful ways to break stalemates, but when they are countered properly they just make people feel dirty. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I really liked Wildstar's cooldown length. Most stuff was 8-12 seconds with more powerful utility/buffs being 25-45 seconds.

 

I think having enough room for cooldown length variety is good though. 

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Reminds me of the days of Aion playing as a sorc, every hour my 4k DP skill would be up and I would go insta-kill 4-6 people farming balaur in the abyss. I wouldn't like to see this in Crowfall.

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I kind of enjoy those "oh crap" moments from high CD abilities.  Not only do they allow for really impactful ways to break stalemates, but when they are countered properly they just make people feel dirty. 

I appreciate the concept and don't mind having something that'll potentially save you in a pinch.  The issue is that they tend to be OP by default and it becomes a whole meta, making sure you aren't pushing or fighting until it's available.  ESO's implementation seemed pretty decent as you could save it, it used its own resource, and still required proper use as it wasn't in any way actually OP.  It was just part of your build and not all of them really qualified as O poorly made socks abilities.

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I kind of enjoy those "oh crap" moments from high CD abilities. Not only do they allow for really impactful ways to break stalemates, but when they are countered properly they just make people feel dirty.

I'm trying to remember if it's possible to have these experiences without long cooldowns, or any cooldowns... Pretty sure I experience this in virtually any action game that's well made, so let's say we want exciting gameplay and not artificially attach it to cooldowns.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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I appreciate the concept and don't mind having something that'll potentially save you in a pinch.  The issue is that they tend to be OP by default and it becomes a whole meta, making sure you aren't pushing or fighting until it's available.  ESO's implementation seemed pretty decent as you could save it, it used its own resource, and still required proper use as it wasn't in any way actually OP.  It was just part of your build and not all of them really qualified as O poorly made socks abilities.

If it's op they can let it run for those campaigns and fix it for later campaign.  It doesn't matter if an ability is an ultimate or a 10sec cd spell if it is effective it becomes part of the meta but if the game has so much variety there are often ways to counter other abilities or playstyles. 

 

If some guy only wants to fight every 30minutes so what? 

 

 

I'm trying to remember if it's possible to have these experiences without long cooldowns, or any cooldowns... Pretty sure I experience this in virtually any action game that's well made, so let's say we want exciting gameplay and not artificially attach it to cooldowns.

Yep but cooldowns are fine if done well, and many action combat games have cooldowns, whether a cooldown is long or short you have to look at the abilities behavior itself to see where it fits into fighting. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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If it's op they can let it run for those campaigns and fix it for later campaign.  It doesn't matter if an ability is an ultimate or a 10sec cd spell if it is effective it becomes part of the meta but if the game has so much variety there are often ways to counter other abilities or playstyles. 

 

If some guy only wants to fight every 30minutes so what? 

I don't think you know the difference between bread-and-butter skills or essentials skills and a metagame.  Having your build or kit of some dozen+ abilities is one thing.  Having that kit rely heavily on one ability that may have 30 minutes or more of a cooldown is a metagame because everyone with that skill makes it that meta, and then everyone fighting such builds have to be aware of that meta, and such skills are then often available to other builds.  The metagame is the reliance on one single ability that cannot be consistently used because it's "too good" where everyone has to worry about that one skill and others like it rather than actually playing the game and making experimenting with builds like you should.  This is different from flavor of the month where one particular build excels beyond a reasonable capacity either by being too forgiving or being too easy.

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I don't think you know the difference between bread-and-butter skills or essentials skills and a metagame.  Having your build or kit of some dozen+ abilities is one thing.  Having that kit rely heavily on one ability that may have 30 minutes or more of a cooldown is a metagame because everyone with that skill makes it that meta, and then everyone fighting such builds have to be aware of that meta, and such skills are then often available to other builds.  The metagame is the reliance on one single ability that cannot be consistently used because it's "too good" where everyone has to worry about that one skill and others like it rather than actually playing the game and making experimenting with builds like you should.  This is different from flavor of the month where one particular build excels beyond a reasonable capacity either by being too forgiving or being too easy.

If you want to build in a way that you have to rely on a 30m cooldown cool, more variety the better! 

 

I don't think you understand how metas develop and shift... people don't just declare something OP and give up on experimenting...


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Why have cooldowns at all? This is a combo based system after all! Keep everything resource dependent and remove all cooldowns.

 

That worked great for ESO..../s

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