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Deioth

Super, Ultimate, and otherwise high-cooldown abilities

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Learned a lot from this thread - good stuff.

 

I'm leaning more towards either no huge Oh Poorly Made Socks ability or one that has to be chained up to to use.  I don't like the idea of folks relying on an ability so much that they don't have a way to engage unless it's available.

 


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The Chronicles of Crowfall           The Free Lands of Azure            RIP Doc Gonzo.

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VIKINGNAIL, it doesn't matter if it can work, it's not as action oriented and reduces tactical immersion. There are a dozen reasons this thread over explaining the benefits of avoiding it, and I pointed out that your reasons were hollow, so it can work isn't a point.

 

I'm trying to think, again, of an action game that was more intense or deliberate because of cooldowns, oh wait, the most intense ones don't need them. They might have resources, they may have animation handicaps, but keeping with action depth and intensity, they avoid cooldowns and deliver MORE intensity and interaction.

 

I needn't repeat the point again, it's not addressed simply because you replied...

Edited by bahamutkaiser

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Why have cooldowns at all? This is a combo based system after all! Keep everything resource dependent and remove all cooldowns.

Agree. Cooldowns are just a more artificial way of handling the same idea: that your character can't Power Swing infinite times in a row because it puts a strain on him.

 

In Betrayal at Krondor (a '90s "tactics" style game), your mages didn't actually have mana. They just had stamina like everyone else, and every single attack or technique anyone used used up some stamina, which regenerated each turn (it was turn-based... kind of beside the point). In most games, with magic especially, you'd have mana AND cooldowns governing ability use/frequency. However, in this game, other than the turn limit, you could actually cast spells as often as you wanted. But, when you ran out of stamina, your magic tapped into your own life force. Also, though, each time you cast a spell, you could specify the amount of stamina to use. So, even a buff, like an armor spell, would be more potent and last longer if you put 40 stamina into it instead of 30, etc. I think your stats and level affected the "potency value" of each point of stamina. So, later on, you could deal 50 damage with a fireball cast at 10 stamina, while early on, you'd have to put 40 stamina into it to get the same power.

 

It's a very interesting take on ability use, as it's almost purely resource management (again, other than the turn limit, which I guess technically functions like a cooldown.)


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If you want to build in a way that you have to rely on a 30m cooldown cool, more variety the better! 

 

I don't think you understand how metas develop and shift... people don't just declare something OP and give up on experimenting...

The danger is making something so good the only way to balance it is a 30 minute cooldown is that this develops a meta of its own.  Depending on how varied builds can be, we'll see plenty of experimenting, but you'd better believe that people (especially paladins holy hell) abused the shizzle out of their high cooldown skills often to the point they'd rely on them.  Sure, bad players did that a fair amount of the time, but the other edge of the sword here is that the base class was then balanced around having those skills because of how good they were.

 

They are bad ideas.  It WILL develop a meta around an over reliance of such skills and an over prediction of their use, greatly limiting the potential of builds that actually then get used because now you have to build with the meta or against it or you are screwing yourself on purpose.  It'd be like if alchemy winds up being overly easy, the meta would be everyone would need alchemists and always be stocked in potions, and if you aren't stocked you're gimping yourself.  That is a meta, where players feel compelled to play a very specific way at the negligence of everything else.

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ESO executed everything so poorly. It worked fine for UO.

Really, the implementation of ultimates felt pretty good.  The combat itself was poor, sure, for lots of reasons (as was everything else) but this worked, I feel.  It's a good system to consider borrowing from because you can still have super abilities and conditional abilities that have greater power plus an ultimate that relies on its own resource.  Call it "Piety" or "Heroism" or something lore related.

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The danger is making something so good the only way to balance it is a 30 minute cooldown is that this develops a meta of its own.  Depending on how varied builds can be, we'll see plenty of experimenting, but you'd better believe that people (especially paladins holy hell) abused the shizzle out of their high cooldown skills often to the point they'd rely on them.  Sure, bad players did that a fair amount of the time, but the other edge of the sword here is that the base class was then balanced around having those skills because of how good they were.

 

They are bad ideas.  It WILL develop a meta around an over reliance of such skills and an over prediction of their use, greatly limiting the potential of builds that actually then get used because now you have to build with the meta or against it or you are screwing yourself on purpose.  It'd be like if alchemy winds up being overly easy, the meta would be everyone would need alchemists and always be stocked in potions, and if you aren't stocked you're gimping yourself.  That is a meta, where players feel compelled to play a very specific way at the negligence of everything else.

If players want to limit themselves to gimmick builds so be it... great players are constantly evolving... This is something you can see in esports where even games that don't receive any balance changes have shifting metas.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Did anyone play Ragnarok? I just remembered how Monk used to one-hit most of the people with a spell that consumed all of his mana (or something like that?). It was the only spell in the game with high risk-reward.. and the fact that it was an exception rather than a rule made it much more enjoyable.

 

Edit: Asura Strike! Wonderful: https://youtu.be/MLr_LIga798?t=53

Edited by Fenris DDevil

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In Final Fantasy XI there were abilities with multiple hour cooldowns.  Not sure that anyone in this day and age would implement such a thing outside of some farmville style game but it could happen.  :mellow:

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In Final Fantasy XI there were abilities with multiple hour cooldowns. Not sure that anyone in this day and age would implement such a thing outside of some farmville style game but it could happen. :mellow:

Every job had a 2 hour ability, and it was a shared cooldown across all jobs. That is likely too extreme for PvP crowfall. I wouldn't be against a 2 hour cd teleport though.

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In Final Fantasy XI there were abilities with multiple hour cooldowns.  Not sure that anyone in this day and age would implement such a thing outside of some farmville style game but it could happen.  :mellow:

 

In a way, I think long hour cooldowns was an artificial gap into slowing down themepark MMOs so it made it feel full of content so that you didn't speed through it all  at once.  Lockouts are very common in this regard.

 

When you make an actual GAME that caters to emergent gameplay so you're not sitting around with your virtual husk of an avatar in a hollow world after all the content is exhausted and there's nothing else to do... the design approach should be different in the sense that

 

Skill lockouts aren't a content stopgap but for balance purpose, and in an action pvp game, it should not be very long. In PvP games like Smite, ultimate abilities are at average between a minute or two cooldown. They're set up in situational manners at times as well so it can't be blown off redundantly and then you regret using it when a crucial moment comes. I don't see why that can't be applied to Crowfall archetype specials.

 

Teleport is an exception though, and I'm not a fan of teleport mechanics because it can be abused or hijacked by scriptkiddies for node farming. Wildstar early days were a perfect example of that. You could set up beacons like a gateway for "teleports", that'd be different entirely, so no need for long cooldown teleports.

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If a combat ability needs a cooldown longer than "once per fight" to balance it then it's too strong; make it weaker instead of creating a scenario where you're underpowered one fight then overpowered the next.

 

Noncombat abilities like teleports/summons are a different story, although I disapprove of those as a general rule anyway.


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The biggest problem in the thinking behind "Oh, this ultimate ability WOULD be OP, but it's okay because it has a really long cooldown! 8D!" is that 1 minute of cooldown and X damage are not equal currency. Like in Crowfall, you couldn't have an ability that lets you annihilate an entire castle by yourself, and justify it with a 3-week cooldown. Sure, the power of the ability is proportional to the cooldown, but it's STILL Not proportional to what anyone's capabilities should be within the context of the game.

 

As Lastgirl~ said, if you can't make an ability significant with a 1-or-so-minute cooldown, you probably have a problem with that ability in areas completely unrelated to its cost.

 

You see the same thinking applied to other cost factors, though. Like, "Oh, this ability kills 15 people in a circle, but it's okay! It costs half your HP!" Awesome. Who cares if I'm at 50% HP if everyone around me just exploded?


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