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Infynis

How Long Do We Want Combat to Take?

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You guys take as long as you like, but I plan on one-hitting you all. :P

"surBear prepares single hit KO, surBear dies half way through 10 second casting animation" :P


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Oh man, you just used a unity of time measurement bigger than a century!

 

30 seconds to kill someone afk seems long, survivability in combat should not depend on passive damage reduction or low damage compared to big health bars. It should mostly be a balance of reduction and active mitigation. A player blocking, dodging, healing himself, hitting back etc. That should be hard to kill, maybe a minute or more. Someone sitting afk should die in 15 secs tops. They are taking full hits, not healing, not blocking, not dodging, not... anything. If it takes 30 seconds to destroy someone through their passive mitigation imagine when they are actually protecting themselves and avoiding damage? Passive mitigation is not skill, it is an artificial inflation of combat length that gives chances of recovery to bad people. It should be there for some archetypes with heavy armor and defenses, but it should be secondary.

 

On the one hand it's a fair point.

 

On the other hand, however, keep in mind much of crowfall is balanced around very large battles in which there is no firehose healer design to counterbalance the incoming damage of, say, 5 people all shooting the same guy.

 

I'm all for highly effective active defenses and light HP pools, but there are a lot of mechanical factors to consider when talking about it, the biggest of which are the specifics of support functionality and active mitigation types. We know blocking, dodging, and parrying have been mentioned, but what hasn't been mentioned with any specificity is how impactful support play is in terms of mitigation, how effective active defenses are from a raw mitigation standpoint, or how the recovery of Hp pools works.

 

A 30 second base TTK may seem long when you're expecting people to easily top off HP between fights, or be able to reliably heal from near death to max within the course of a single battle, but what if the design is more long form, allowing only slow regeneration and anemic heals with lengthy down time or specific player housing interactions to regain HP? In this case a longer TTK makes a lot more sense as you can't have attrition-focused HP systems and also a short base TTK.

 

There are just too many variables with how combat and recovery function at this point to really judge what's appropriate. It might actually be intended that two "fresh" characters have long TTKs, but that characters are intended to carry significant portions of recieved damage long term rather than short term to enhance the importance of territory claims, setting designated resting spaces, and selective engagement, or to make the cumulative power of interactions with the ever-incraesing number of ambient NPC threats more impactful.

Edited by PopeUrban

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45 seconds to 1 minute is an eternity in active combat.  If it lasts longer than that both opponents are most likely very skilled or have a ton of defensive, cc or utility skills that allow for drawn out fights.

 

Personally, I love it when I can fight someone and it lasts for a minute or 2.  It's usually an extremely good 1v1 fight.  If you're looking at making TTK 1-2 minutes then when you fight someone who is equally skilled, equipped, etc, you're looking at a 3-4 minute fight easy.  That's over and above too long in my opinion.


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On the one hand it's a fair point.

 

On the other hand, however, keep in mind much of crowfall is balanced around very large battles in which there is no firehose healer design to counterbalance the incoming damage of, say, 5 people all shooting the same guy.

 

I'm all for highly effective active defenses and light HP pools, but there are a lot of mechanical factors to consider when talking about it, the biggest of which are the specifics of support functionality and active mitigation types. We know blocking, dodging, and parrying have been mentioned, but what hasn't been mentioned with any specificity is how impactful support play is in terms of mitigation, how effective active defenses are from a raw mitigation standpoint, or how the recovery of Hp pools works.

 

A 30 second base TTK may seem long when you're expecting people to easily top off HP between fights, or be able to reliably heal from near death to max within the course of a single battle, but what if the design is more long form, allowing only slow regeneration and anemic heals with lengthy down time or specific player housing interactions to regain HP? In this case a longer TTK makes a lot more sense as you can't have attrition-focused HP systems and also a short base TTK.

 

There are just too many variables with how combat and recovery function at this point to really judge what's appropriate. It might actually be intended that two "fresh" characters have long TTKs, but that characters are intended to carry significant portions of recieved damage long term rather than short term to enhance the importance of territory claims, setting designated resting spaces, and selective engagement, or to make the cumulative power of interactions with the ever-incraesing number of ambient NPC threats more impactful.

I can totally see this side of the argument and I agree with pretty much every point you made. This game is not and should not be balanced around 1v1. We will have to accept that certain archetypes will likely die faster and lose on 1v1, while being needed and useful in groups. There are too many variables and mechanics that need to be tested still so we can have a solid opinion. In any case, it is good for us to consider and keep in minds all extremes so when we actually get to test the game we keep an eye out for all spectrum of problems.

Edited by LGAllastair

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On the one hand it's a fair point.

 

On the other hand, however, keep in mind much of crowfall is balanced around very large battles in which there is no firehose healer design to counterbalance the incoming damage of, say, 5 people all shooting the same guy.

 

I'm all for highly effective active defenses and light HP pools, but there are a lot of mechanical factors to consider when talking about it, the biggest of which are the specifics of support functionality and active mitigation types. We know blocking, dodging, and parrying have been mentioned, but what hasn't been mentioned with any specificity is how impactful support play is in terms of mitigation, how effective active defenses are from a raw mitigation standpoint, or how the recovery of Hp pools works.

 

A 30 second base TTK may seem long when you're expecting people to easily top off HP between fights, or be able to reliably heal from near death to max within the course of a single battle, but what if the design is more long form, allowing only slow regeneration and anemic heals with lengthy down time or specific player housing interactions to regain HP? In this case a longer TTK makes a lot more sense as you can't have attrition-focused HP systems and also a short base TTK.

 

There are just too many variables with how combat and recovery function at this point to really judge what's appropriate. It might actually be intended that two "fresh" characters have long TTKs, but that characters are intended to carry significant portions of recieved damage long term rather than short term to enhance the importance of territory claims, setting designated resting spaces, and selective engagement, or to make the cumulative power of interactions with the ever-incraesing number of ambient NPC threats more impactful.

 

This is exactly what I'm hoping for.  Long ass TTK because of more permanent HP loss.  I think this would really create that "struggling to survive" feeling that they seem to be going for.

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On the other hand, however, keep in mind much of crowfall is balanced around very large battles in which there is no firehose healer design to counterbalance the incoming damage of, say, 5 people all shooting the same guy.

 

If 5 guys shoot one guy, he should die pretty much instantly.


I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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It shouldn't take longer than 10 seconds for a fight between two full dps archetypes to duke it out.  A straight up fight between two tanks should take no longer than a minute.  A well balanced 5v5 should last about 5 minutes, but this is all assuming a head on clash and no one is using hit and run insurgent tactics, which can prolong a fight considerably.  My preference though is for TTK be relatively short 1v1 so things like initiative and tactics will usually beat skill and gear, but good support should be able to counter initiate and turn the tables.  Games typically aren't fun when the more skilled or better equipped player always wins, and the longer the fight the more likely this is.  Similarly, the longer a fight lasts the lower the chance a player can win if outnumbered.  Initiative should provide almost the same advantage as having another player, such that 1v2 a solo player has a good chance to win if they engage first and fast.  

 

Granted everyone has different views on how pvp should be structured, and I think the best answer is to make archetypes varied enough that combat can be very quick or very long depending on how you build your character.

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I couldn't care less about how long a 1v1 fight lasts.  How long will a 10v10 last is more of a question I'm interested in.  I've played games where the average fight was over in 30 seconds or less and games that have lasted ten minutes.  I can honestly say that I couldn't pin one as being better then the other.  It's more about what happens in that amount of time. 

 

I did like what you said about the opportunity to make a comeback.  That's something you rarely see in games like this, once the fight starts to tip in the favor of one side its pretty easy to tell whos going to win. 

More often than not it is more like 1 vs 3 or more, or 2-3 vs 8-10. Very seldom, outside of a arena, is it ever 1 vs 1.


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30 Second TTK for a 1v1 fight is longer than some are giving it credit.  I'd be perfectly happy with that as the 'average', with the ability to burst down a target faster, given the right circumstances, and have fights prolonged, given the right circumstances.  That said, you don't balance for 1v1.

 

Group fights SHOULD last exponentially longer imo.  The additional utility of support classes increasing mitigation, minor heals, interrupts, CC, etc should drag fights out to make them more interesting. 

 

As the group sizes increase, the TTK should rise exponentially as well to a certain degree.

 

It'll be interesting to see how Group vs Group fights go without the firehose healers.  I can see a world where the DAoC "Assist Train" strategy comes out and individual players are mobbed down one at a time with focused fire.  Then again, depending on the TYPES of support mitigation (temp immunity shield?) that could be countered, etc.

 

Oh the possibilities!

 

TL;DR, 1v1 fights should be relatively quick, group fights prolonged.


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Group fights SHOULD last exponentially longer imo.  The additional utility of support classes increasing mitigation, minor heals, interrupts, CC, etc should drag fights out to make them more interesting. 

pls no

 

This is one of the things I hate most about MMO PvP in general. Really, really hoping that this general dynamic doesn't occur quite as much in crowfall.

 

Mitigation by dissuasion = great

Mitigation by well placed area denial abilities (slow fields, LoS walls, anti-ranged spells) = great

Mitigation by 0 effort general defense buffs and heals for groups = terribly boring and cancerous for small groups

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pls no

 

This is one of the things I hate most about MMO PvP in general. Really, really hoping that this general dynamic doesn't occur quite as much in crowfall.

 

Mitigation by dissuasion = great

Mitigation by well placed area denial abilities (slow fields, LoS walls, anti-ranged spells) = great

Mitigation by 0 effort general defense buffs and heals for groups = terribly boring and cancerous for small groups

 

I should clarify, I suppose.  I was referring to active support abilities, not "buffbot" style utility.  Not sure where the "0 effort" part was inferred, but it was certainly not what I was implying.


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Group fights SHOULD last exponentially longer imo.  The additional utility of support classes increasing mitigation, minor heals, interrupts, CC, etc should drag fights out to make them more interesting. 

 

Isn't this stated as the reason they don't want firehose healers? If  having support gives you mitigation and therefore an "exponentially" longer battle, how is that different from healers giving you a bigger health pool and therefore an "exponentially" longer battle?


I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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Isn't this stated as the reason they don't want firehose healers? If  having support gives you mitigation and therefore an "exponentially" longer battle, how is that different from healers giving you a bigger health pool and therefore an "exponentially" longer battle?

 

Exponentially longer than a 1v1 fight.  I don't think this is exactly a radical stance to take.

 

The elimination of "firehose healers" makes it so it's not a DPS vs HPS race, which is more mindless (not to say healing doesn't take skill, just the functional DPS vs HPS race is kind of linear) and replacing it with more of an "active mitigation" system in which the support classes will be a part of, i.e. temporary mitigations, shields, etc.

 

It makes it more of an active action/counter action system than simply trying to race a healer's ability to refill the pool.

 

Ultimately, we're all speculating until we see what these abiltiies actually are, and how they play out.

 

In terms of TTK, though, which is what the thread is about, expecting a group vs group fight to be exponentially longer than your typical 1v1 fight is pretty straight forward in that more abilities leading to more mitigations, actions being met with more potential counter actions, etc will likely prolong the fights more than simply adding in another health bar that has to be depleted.


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Sorta? It depends what you mean. Do I expect group fights to last a while? Yes, certainly.

 

Do I expect individuals to die less quickly in a group fight? Not exactly, I think that'll depend heavily on other factors and certainly can theoretically die much faster. I'm not inclined to imagine individuals as often surviving longer in group fights, even well supported. I'm not sure how that'd work, given no firehosing.

 

That's not to say I don't agree that there'll be a lot of ways to help support someone or fall back among the group, but you've gotta also imagine that the attackers will probably also have very rude ways to shut someone's defenses down if they position poorly.

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Isn't this stated as the reason they don't want firehose healers? If  having support gives you mitigation and therefore an "exponentially" longer battle, how is that different from healers giving you a bigger health pool and therefore an "exponentially" longer battle?

Quality of gameplay is the difference. Not wanting firehouse healers has more to do with eliminating boring unfun gameplay then anything else IMO.

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pls no

 

This is one of the things I hate most about MMO PvP in general. Really, really hoping that this general dynamic doesn't occur quite as much in crowfall.

 

Mitigation by dissuasion = great

Mitigation by well placed area denial abilities (slow fields, LoS walls, anti-ranged spells) = great

Mitigation by 0 effort general defense buffs and heals for groups = terribly boring and cancerous for small groups

 

I agree with you but only because you say zero effort defensive abilities should be eliminated.  If it takes just as much skill to protect a player than it does to damage one I don't see why you wouldn't have these types of abilities.  It creates more interesting combat in my opinion. 


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At the moment they have 

 

8 DPS (with variations to how that happens)

3 tanks

2 support

 

You can expect many of those playing tank or support to be TRYING to DPS with those classes, as happens in most MMOs 

I think you will be lucky if 10% of the players in any fight are actually playing something other than DPS

 

I suspect we will see very short fights when there are allot of people involved.

Short when fighting but I expect allot of standoffs with no one willing to go forward and get snapped by the entire enemy team.

1 DPS character getting focused down = quick deaths.

LOS ranged fire and trying to staying at max range to lay down AOE will result in the front lines of any group getting smashed by allot of DPS and falling fast.

 

Unless the tanks are VERY tanky (like WAR AoR tanks)

Edited by steppenwolf

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