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Infynis

How Long Do We Want Combat to Take?

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Keeping in mind 2 different players of equal armor/weapons

 

I think a pvp battle between 2 players should be around 30seconds-2:30minutes.

 

You may think 30 seconds isn't very long, but as any serious pvp will tell you, time slows down when you're pvping.  That 30 seconds feels more like 5 minutes.  

 

A 30 second fight would be one player plays almost flawlessly, while the other player makes several considerable mistakes.  

 

A two and a half minute fight would be 2 almost equally skilled opponents battling it out until one player finally gets the upperhand.

 

 

What I really don't want to see are 10 minute duels, or duels were the fight is "reset" several times because one opponent uses many movement skills to run behind a rock to stat up again and heal.

 

Please do not add many "reset" mechanics into this game... PLz... I'm begging you.  It's just so..... NOT FUN.

 

Movement abilities should use LOTS of stamina so that if you do get behind that rock, the trade off for getting those couple of heals in, is that your out of stamina.  

 

 

 

A player with a full dps spec (glass machinegun or cannon) Should be able to quickly take out a semi afk player in under 15 seconds in my opinion.  If you're afk you deserve to die.  

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One thing to consider that I'm not seeing mentioned here is that high TTK contributes directly to the prevalence of zerging in PvP, as it lessens the impact of of a coordinated smaller group against a disorganized larger one by making it easier to counter the smaller team's tactic as more time is allowed to do so. Where a surprise coordinated stack of AoEs may have flattened a large portion of a zerg in seconds before, a high TTK would give them a lot more time to regroup and recover, even if they aren't that organized of a group.

Edited by Isarii

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One thing to consider that I'm not seeing mentioned here is that high TTK contributes directly to the prevalence of zerging in PvP, as it lessens the impact of of a coordinated smaller group against a disorganized larger one by making it easier to counter the smaller team's tactic as more time is allowed to do so. Where a surprise coordinated stack of AoEs may have flattened a large portion of a zerg in seconds before, a high TTK would give them a lot more time to regroup and recover, even if they aren't that organized of a group.

 

I agree with everything you say here.

 

This brings into question "how powerful should AOE's be".  I mean ranged AOE's would need to be weak in my opinion as a balance to the fact that they are easier to hit a player with.  

 

A small group with "5" or so players shouldn't be able to instantly kill another group of players with focused AOE's.  I would say maybe a group of 10 should be able to accomplish this.  (That is if the larger group of players is foolish enough to all congregate within the radius of those ranged AOE's.)  

 

Longer Time to Kill (TTK) also makes support classes MUCH more influential in a group fight, as they have more opportunities to throw heals.

 

It's always a balance.  If TTK is to short new or poorly skilled players would not have fun in PVP, as they would not have much time to enjoy the combat, while if TTK is to high combat itself may become less enjoyable for skilled and organized players, as there player skill may become less of an influence in the battle.  

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I think it would be fair to say that some are considering support in a very "healer replacement" manner of thought.  Great group support might be a manner of drains preventing what active and passive and situational healing can happen in combat.  It might be reducing ability resource pools preventing optimal execution of combos.  It may be area denial.  If may be escape prevention.  It may be diversions.  CC doesn't all have to be "You miss 95% of the time for 6 seconds" or "You move at 50% speed" or "You can't do schnitt for 2 seconds except watch people attack you" afterall, and support won't suddenly mean only absorption shields and regen buffs and mild hots.

 

TTK is going to be based on many factors, but given the direction the game is going, it would make more sense to base TTK for an individual archetype under expected circumstances to kill an opponent rather than base it on TTK of a duel or a skirmish.  We're also dealing with a game that will have a combat system with the 3rd dimension--the depth--of active skillbased combat.  This brings a lot more into it compared to traditional MMOs where you fight against RNG almost as much as the actions and reactions of your player opponents.  I think we're overall being too speculative until we know what the finalized combat system will look like, and even then it will take time to feel out the sweet spot.  Coming from Tera, fights can take quite some time depending on a myriad of factors all which have much more weight than traditional MMOs.

 

We should just wait this out until we can speak more clearly about it.

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One thing to consider that I'm not seeing mentioned here is that high TTK contributes directly to the prevalence of zerging in PvP, as it lessens the impact of of a coordinated smaller group against a disorganized larger one by making it easier to counter the smaller team's tactic as more time is allowed to do so. Where a surprise coordinated stack of AoEs may have flattened a large portion of a zerg in seconds before, a high TTK would give them a lot more time to regroup and recover, even if they aren't that organized of a group.

 

Very good point, but we also have a variety of other factors limiting Zergs naturally, hopefully the game will be tactically heavy, but at least Collision means a zerg will have a hard time dispersing in an AoE situation.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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From the way the game seems to be going, I think naturally the combat will wind up being more of a "Darksouls" style than a classic MMO charge in, spam attacks, win in 10 seconds. I think dodging and blocking strategically will be critical do to the lack of healing. So instead of lots of slash, slash, stab, slash action. It will more or less be, block, block, parry, stab, block. And repeat this over the course of maybe 1-3 minutes depending on the fight scenario. This type of gameplay should allow for quicker fights in areas like sieges where small skirmishes and bodies flying everywhere should be quick. Opposed to a 1v1 in an enclosed arena set up by players to test their skills.

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One thing to consider that I'm not seeing mentioned here is that high TTK contributes directly to the prevalence of zerging in PvP, as it lessens the impact of of a coordinated smaller group against a disorganized larger one by making it easier to counter the smaller team's tactic as more time is allowed to do so. Where a surprise coordinated stack of AoEs may have flattened a large portion of a zerg in seconds before, a high TTK would give them a lot more time to regroup and recover, even if they aren't that organized of a group.

I seem to remember seeing something about this before....

 

http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/5946-why-ttk-and-the-zerg-are-inextricably-linked/#entry148450

 

:P

Edited by bairloch

I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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One thing to consider that I'm not seeing mentioned here is that high TTK contributes directly to the prevalence of zerging in PvP, as it lessens the impact of of a coordinated smaller group against a disorganized larger one by making it easier to counter the smaller team's tactic as more time is allowed to do so. Where a surprise coordinated stack of AoEs may have flattened a large portion of a zerg in seconds before, a high TTK would give them a lot more time to regroup and recover, even if they aren't that organized of a group.

 

I don't think a small group should be able to go against a much larger head to head and win(ie jump in middle of them and AE).  The smaller should should have to apply guerrilla tactics and pick at larger group to get a few to give chase or make them spread out to find you and then pick them apart.   

 

Many in this thread seem like they forgot or just not giving any consideration that you will be able to loot your opponents.  So forget 10sec fights. Fastest a 1v1 should be is 1 min and anyways this game should not be balanced on 1v1.   It should be balanced on small/medium group combat and players should have an avenue of escape at start of fight.

 

My favorite quotes I learned in Eve Online was " If you find yourself in a fair fight, your both doing it wrong."

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A 1vs1 fight in an unbalanced for 1vs1 environment should not take 1 minute. That will be an eternity for both the guy who knows he's going to lose and for the guy who knows he's going to win. Just get it over with.


I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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A 1vs1 fight in an unbalanced for 1vs1 environment should not take 1 minute. That will be an eternity for both the guy who knows he's going to lose and for the guy who knows he's going to win. Just get it over with.

I think the people that want a higher ttk may change their mind once testing begins and they see just how long things like a 1minute 1v1 actually are.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I think the people that want a higher ttk may change their mind once testing begins and they see just how long things like a 1minute 1v1 actually are.

 

The possibility also exists that the combat is fun enough that they may want it to take longer.

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The possibility also exists that the combat is fun enough that they may want it to take longer.

The possibility exists but it is highly unlikely... When TTK takes too long you get desensitized to the weight of each individual action.  Kind of counter-intuitive in an action combat system meant to keep players engaged...


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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The possibility exists but it is highly unlikely... When TTK takes too long you get desensitized to the weight of each individual action.  Kind of counter-intuitive in an action combat system meant to keep players engaged...

 

When TTK takes too short of a time you get frustrated due to your inability to survive insurmountable damage even with your skill in the active evasion/blocking system that ACE is implementing.  Kind of counter-intuitive in an action combat system meant to keep players engaged....

Edited by valor

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When TTK takes too short of a time you get frustrated due to your inability to survive insurmountable damage due to your skill in the active evasion/blocking system that ACE is implementing.  Kind of counter-intuitive in an action combat system meant to keep players engaged....

Well you sound a bit lost... we'll just have to wait and see who is closer to the mark with how this games combat turns out. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I think the people that want a higher ttk may change their mind once testing begins and they see just how long things like a 1minute 1v1 actually are.

Game isn't 1v1 based though. Its supposed to be group/team based. So TTK will and should be based on what happens during group encounters.

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Game isn't 1v1 based though. Its supposed to be group/team based. So TTK will and should be based on what happens during group encounters.

Battles will come in all shapes and sizes... they'll just focus heavily on making combat fun and engaging...  which generally doesn't involve long TTKs in action combat games.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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