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Creating New archetypes and disciplines

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This is more of a question for devs. When creating a new type of "class" what is the thought process like for deciding if it should be its own archetype or if it would serve better as a discipline for any of the archetypes to pick up and diversify build possibilities?

Edited by Unnamed

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Archetypes are much, much bigger than disciplines.One could also say that an archetype is made up of a bunch of disciplines, since we want to break off pieces of some of the archetypes and turn them into disciplines. This way we get to leverage technology we already built multiple times as well as create many options for character customization. The discipline version of an archetype power will usually be weaker but it does allow for scenarios where a DPS archetype could pickup a support power via a discipline.

 

Our process usually involves a wall, lots of 3x5 cards, some stickers, and piles of post it notes. When we started the class design on Crowfall we already had a list of character names we wanted, and used those names to drive some top down powers/characteristics of the characters. We added the archetype names to cards and then started coming up with ideas of what we think it would be like to play that character. "This one is a stealther!""This is a trap guy". As someone has an idea, they validate it aloud, if there is agreement, it is added it to a sticky and put on the wall. Sometimes an idea sounds like it could stand up on its own, so we add that in the discipline section. (Traps for example sounded cool, can we put some into a discipline and call it Ratcatcher?)

 

Over a few days the wall fills up and you can stand back and look at the wall and see holes. Like hrmmmm there are 9 DPS classes, we need to shift things around a bit. So we did. This is why some of the roles we initially selected for archetypes have shifted a bit over time. We still have some holes with the current 13 but the idea is to fill them up with more archetypes after the core module is released.

 

The discipline brainstorming sessions are different from archetype on a very fundamental level. With archetypes we started with a name and formed ideas around that name, this is called top down design. With disciplines we start with a mechanic and form a name association around the mechanic, this is called bottom up design. (Ie we have a mechanic of dropping an object that provides a buff to team mates nearby. Could that object be like a battle standard? Sure! Could that discipline be called Standard Bearer? Yeah! Now this is where it might turn top down since we all have a preconceived notion of what a Standard Bearer is. Can he carry a standard on his back? Yeah! Can he get a max skill increase to his Leadership skill and Staff skill? Ok!) Sometimes as you see the methodologies cross as things start to escalate. 

 

Sometimes a discipline mechanic will sound so badass it feels like it should be part of an archetype. Some of the legionnaire powers started out as discipline powers and they evolved into a more powerful form.  Talking aloud about the disciplines before putting them on the wall really helps too, it prevented the Mr.T Discipline from going on the wall. (+4 Necklace Equipment Slots, +Power: Pity the Foo!)

 


Thomas Blair
ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.
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Archetypes are much, much bigger than disciplines.One could also say that an archetype is made up of a bunch of disciplines, since we want to break off pieces of some of the archetypes and turn them into disciplines. This way we get to leverage technology we already built multiple times as well as create many options for character customization. The discipline version of an archetype power will usually be weaker but it does allow for scenarios where a DPS archetype could pickup a support power via a discipline.

 

Our process usually involves a wall, lots of 3x5 cards, some stickers, and piles of post it notes. When we started the class design on Crowfall we already had a list of character names we wanted, and used those names to drive some top down powers/characteristics of the characters. We added the archetype names to cards and then started coming up with ideas of what we think it would be like to play that character. "This one is a stealther!""This is a trap guy". As someone has an idea, they validate it aloud, if there is agreement, it is added it to a sticky and put on the wall. Sometimes an idea sounds like it could stand up on its own, so we add that in the discipline section. (Traps for example sounded cool, can we put some into a discipline and call it Ratcatcher?)

 

Over a few days the wall fills up and you can stand back and look at the wall and see holes. Like hrmmmm there are 9 DPS classes, we need to shift things around a bit. So we did. This is why some of the roles we initially selected for archetypes have shifted a bit over time. We still have some holes with the current 13 but the idea is to fill them up with more archetypes after the core module is released.

 

The discipline brainstorming sessions are different from archetype on a very fundamental level. With archetypes we started with a name and formed ideas around that name, this is called top down design. With disciplines we start with a mechanic and form a name association around the mechanic, this is called bottom up design. (Ie we have a mechanic of dropping an object that provides a buff to team mates nearby. Could that object be like a battle standard? Sure! Could that discipline be called Standard Bearer? Yeah! Now this is where it might turn top down since we all have a preconceived notion of what a Standard Bearer is. Can he carry a standard on his back? Yeah! Can he get a max skill increase to his Leadership skill and Staff skill? Ok!) Sometimes as you see the methodologies cross as things start to escalate. 

 

Sometimes a discipline mechanic will sound so badass it feels like it should be part of an archetype. Some of the legionnaire powers started out as discipline powers and they evolved into a more powerful form.  Talking aloud about the disciplines before putting them on the wall really helps too, it prevented the Mr.T Discipline from going on the wall. (+4 Necklace Equipment Slots, +Power: Pity the Foo!)

 

 

 

need pix of that wall....

 

also a video of said meeting would be sweet.  you could beep out the names to keep us guessing.


etDenA9.png
Camaraderie ~ Loyalty ~ Honor ~ Maturity ~ Integrity ~ Duty

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Staves are in, nice ! I hope it's not just magic staves but quarterstaves as well.

 

Stalker archetype probably echoes with the ratcatcher discipline. Not sure why, but I just have this feeling. Has abilities to set traps and stuff.

 

And the standard is probably something to be used on a fat myrmidon, knight or a templar. Unless it provides some kind of significant dps enchancement, then I could see everybody running with it. I also wonder if the standard provides buffs to the bearer when he is carrying it. And whether the standard can be destroyed once it is dropped on the ground, and if it is destoyed do you have to buy/craft a new one ? Will there be different types of stanards providing diffent buffs ?

 

Will guineceans be able to carry a standard ? they seem to be kind of too small for that. Will they be able to drop that standard while burrowed to keep it under the ground and prevent it from being destroyed and provide buffs at the same time ?

 

I wonder what the Leadership skill could be about. Maybe it's a run buff, or some kind of ability to manage group fomations and maybe increase maximum posible size of the group you are able to form.

Edited by rajah

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Unless it provides some kind of significant dps enchancement, then I could see everybody running with it.

 

It should be a straightforward exercise to balance standards in such a way that they're less effective per player than the standard buffs a solo player could take instead, but provide enough cumulative value in larger groups to be worthwhile.

 

I'm not sure why standard bearers would have any special affinity for quarterstaves, unless they're using the standard itself as the weapon.

 

I do really like the idea of different characters having different equipment slots available to them. I'm not sure if I've seen that mechanic elsewhere.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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It sounds like the Standard Bearer's standard can be used as a weapon. Could a polearm have a standard attached to it and get all the Standard Bearer benefits?

19.jpg


I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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It should be a straightforward exercise to balance standards in such a way that they're less effective per player than the standard buffs a solo player could take instead, but provide enough cumulative value in larger groups to be worthwhile.

 

I'm not sure why standard bearers would have any special affinity for quarterstaves, unless they're using the standard itself as the weapon.

 

I do really like the idea of different characters having different equipment slots available to them. I'm not sure if I've seen that mechanic elsewhere.

 

I imagine some of the benefits of Standard Bearer could be gleaned from actual standard bearing.  Standards were used to keep armies organized and boost moral.  So I imagine boosts to moral (so one or all RNG related stats) and possibly a movement buff. 

 

A way to balance is to not allow stacking of standards and give a limit to the range of effectiveness or amount of people effected by a standard.  You could also have the standard bearer take on a debuff such as slower movement speed or reduced armor since holding a large flag would make you stand out.


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Sometimes a discipline mechanic will sound so badass it feels like it should be part of an archetype. Some of the legionnaire powers started out as discipline powers and they evolved into a more powerful form.  Talking aloud about the disciplines before putting them on the wall really helps too, it prevented the Mr.T Discipline from going on the wall. (+4 Necklace Equipment Slots, +Power: Pity the Foo!)

 

 

Noooooooooo!!!!!! :(

 

My Guineacian NEEDs the Mr T Discipline!

Oh god, the horror of his unadorned neck  :o, his mohawk will just look silly, now  :(

 

ducky3.jpg

Edited by CopperStall

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