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Better Crafting Mechanics Than Mini-Games


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JTC once compared the CF forum to a Hivemind.

As an experiment we can try to develop a multi-layered system for crafting in CF.

We begin with principles to outline what would make a great crafting system

Feel free to suggest additional principles for this list at any time.

  1. Crafting in Crowfall should be fun, even after we have played it for over a year.
  2. Crafting mechanics must be potentially interactive with other players. PvP and Crafting are the main foci for CF players.   PvP > PvE because it's interactive with other players and we generate content more than the developers. Anything less quickly stagnates.
  3. Crafting mechanics should require some player skills which can be easily learned, but not easily mastered. Apparently, "savoir faire" in crafting mechanics is part of the "Je ne sais quoi" that makes a renowned crafter.
  4. Player talents other than those needed to be a great Action Combat player should be emphasized. This allows players who may be gimp in these talents to find a niche as primary crafters.
  5.  Concurrent and sequential crafting:

    • Multiple crafters with the same needed area of expertise (A/E) working concurrently should be able to achieve a quicker result, with the time benefit diminishing with each crafter added. RNG chances should be based on the skill level of the highest level crafter in that A/E. Time benefit for additional crafters should be based upon the number of crafters and the quality of the RF used.
    • Multiple crafters with different A/E working concurrently should have better chances of achieving success than sequentially. Sequential crafting efforts should have an acceptable chance of success. Critical success, standard success, substandard success, and failure are  a good range of possible results for a recipe.
    • Any mini-game must be playable concurrently by all crafters participating in concurrent crafting effort.

We need to be constructive to produce great crafting mechanics ideas for CF, so Moderators please consider this thread to be like one in the "Welcome to CF" section of the forum.

If you have nothing positive to add, please say nothing.

Be nice, even if you hate an idea. You can suggest changes if they don't break the principle of the idea.

You don't have to address every idea put forth yourself, but ideas that have not been examined are begging for positive feedback and amendments.

 

Please post Ideas that would fall within these guidelines, or suggestions for further principles to shape ideas for great mechanics.

Let's find out how smart we can be as a group!

Edited by BurgundytheRed

Honestly, you are the type of person that is much to competitive, has zero compassion for other people and think you are better than everyone else. You likely love to troll people on a day to day bases to get others angry and laugh about it. You make playing any online game unfun for everyone else.  -Kuroaka

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1. Crafting in Crowfall should be fun.

 

Of Course.

 

2. Crafting mechanics must be potentially interactive with other players.

 

Nearly all MMO implemented crafting systems are inherently interactive.  At the minimum when we sell our crafted goodies to other players.  At it's best there is the interaction of acquiring/trading goods, both raw and intermediate, as well as finished. 

 

3. Crafting mechanics should require some player skills which can be easily learned, but not easily mastered.

 

I don't think easily learned is the right way to go.  The basic functionality of the crafting system needs to be clearly presented, but easy to learn is not a necessity.  Nor should needing a doctorate be required either.  And I agree with not easily mastered.  Maybe we're thinking the same thing with different semantic emphasis'.  Maybe not.

 

4. Player talents other than those needed to be a great Action Combat player should be emphasized.

 

Yes!  Crafting should be a mental/planning challenge, as combat is a timing/physical challenge.  Soccer vs. Chess.  or whichever analogies you might prefer.

 

 

Most of your "guidelines" seem self-evident to me, which I suppose is why they needed to be said out loud. (as it were)

 

I will come back here if I'm struck with any passing brilliances.

 

 

Also:  "If you have nothing positive to add, please say nothing."  seems a bit harsh for as quiet as our Crafting Sub-Forum tends to be.  Almost like inviting trouble.(knock on wood)

 

I hope you get some good responses.

Edited by Reliq
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Reliq, we seem to be on the same page with all but #2 (yes CHUD posters, #2 comes from there).  The good aspects of crafting are interactive (IMO), we want to avoid mechanics that require crafters to work alone. Good MMORPG crafting systems are about community.

 

This thread is an attempt to develop concerns brought out in the various crafting mini-game threads.

Those threads became arguments and attempts to discuss positive aspects (and reconcile basic concerns) seemed to be ignored.

I certainly have some Ideas, but would like to see others and discuss them within these principles before stealing anyone's thunder.

Post the Idea and you own it. Then we can try to make it workable and fun.

 

But just to get the ball rolling, here's a peripheral crafting mechanic idea that could be fun.

Repairing resource factories (RF), eg. mines, forges, quarries, sawmills,  should be fairly simple:

  • Any player should be able to look at the RF and see its state of repair as a % of full usefulness.
  • A Toon with a needed crafting skill should be able to see what materials he would need to effect a repair and how much he can fix it in 1 minute.
  • That Toon would need to focus on the repair for a longer period of time to complete it. Interruptions should cost time, but not necessarily material.
  • Multiple players could work concurrently to repair the RF faster, without consuming more materials. (maybe multiple concurrent disciplines should be required to complete repairs to 100% or beyond)
  • Crafters would be oblivious to surroundings while concentrating on RF repair. (Need for pickets)
  • Again, no need for players to demonstrate actual skill in their toons' crafts.
  • Thralls can be slotted into the RF when it reaches certain % thresholds of repair status.
  • Toons with the needed skills could specialize the RF to produce certain materials (provided the proper resources available or imported) more efficiently, include particular defensive qualities (eg. ballistae or sniper blind), and slot in Thralls with special abilities. 
Edited by BurgundytheRed

Honestly, you are the type of person that is much to competitive, has zero compassion for other people and think you are better than everyone else. You likely love to troll people on a day to day bases to get others angry and laugh about it. You make playing any online game unfun for everyone else.  -Kuroaka

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  • Crafting in Crowfall should be fun, even after we have played it for over a year.
  • Crafting mechanics must be potentially interactive with other players. PvP and Crafting are the main foci for CF players.   PvP > PvE because it's interactive with other players and we generate content more than the developers. Anything less quickly stagnates.
  • Crafting mechanics should require some player skills which can be easily learned, but not easily mastered. Apparently, "savoir faire" in crafting mechanics is part of the "Je ne sais quoi" that makes a renowned crafter.
  • Player talents other than those needed to be a great Action Combat player should be emphasized. This allows players who may be gimp in these talents to find a niche as primary crafters.

1) This is really the main thing. As Nyt said, I'd love to see an ACE update entitled "Crafting: Finding the Fun" after they get Combat hashed out, :). I just want to add, regarding the "even after we do it for a while" part, that, people should should keep in mind that you can't really design something that's definitely going to be repeated over and over throughout the life of a game to be never boring or tedious or less-than-fun. I only say that to squelch any thoughts of "Hmmm. I'm going to imagine doing that 100 times in a row, then decide it's a no-good design." Ideally, the overall design of crafting in Crowfall will not make extreme repetition very likely. But... anything can become tedious very quickly if the time you have to spend on it isn't backed up by a fun process. We just don't want crafting to be inherently tedious/boring/unfun. There may still be times, even in the ideal system, when you've crafted for 5 days in a row during some big siege, and you want to take a little brake. But, when you come back to it, it should still be enjoyable again.

 

2) I agree with Reliq in that a lot of this is covered by indirect things: the procurement of materials, maybe the refinement of them by various specialists, the establishment of symbiotic client-crafter relationships, etc. BUT, I will say that it would be pretty awesome (though I realize this is more of a dream than a likelihood) if you could actually co-op the crafting process. Maybe 3 smiths go in together on a shop, and one specializes in running the forge, one specializes in hammering the metal, and another specializes in... I dunno, sharpening them, or attaching the hilts/guards/pommels, etc.? The whole "3 smiths" was just a number I plucked out of the air. It could just be two. But, the point is, this would allow for awesome social interactivity even in the midst of the crafting process, and could even cover the "how do we mass produce things more quickly?" If you just pass off something that needs to be heated to the forge guy, then you don't have to worry about watching it/waiting on it to then hammer it when it's hot enough. And vice versa. It's kind of like an assembly line. Also, with the mastery component of the active-input crafting tasks, some players might be better at heating blades and metals than at hammering, etc. So, you could work together to produce consistently higher-quality products. Just a thought...

 

3) @Reliq, I think this may be a semantic thing after all. The idea is just that it is quite literally simple and intuitive to learn how to "do crafting." It shouldn't take you 15 tries, for example, to figure out how heating metal in the forge works. It should be quite simple to learn that, but difficult to figure out exactly how to get things perfect for various metal alloys and components/molds, etc., as well as to actually do that. So, basically it should be pretty easy to make low-to-average quality stuff, as long as your character has the appropriate skill rating for it, but harder to make higher quality stuff, and even harder to make "perfect" quality stuff, etc. But it shouldn't really be "hard", per se, to just make stuff at all. Especially simple copper things, as opposed to diamond-infused Legendite things. 8P

 

But, I believe the player-skill portion has 2 objectives:

 

a) Allow for dynamic interaction to produce a bit of dynamic outcome, supporting the fun in repeated crafting sessions more so than just the same exact click-and-hope-for-good-RNG each time.

B) Allow for "quality" distinction between crafters, even though they have the same access to the same recipes/materials (potentially -- If Special Silver exists in a world, then any crafter COULD get some of that, either via crafting, trade, conquest, etc.). I honestly think that being able to make lower-quality stuff more consistently/quickly can be a valuable enough thing to prevent everyone from ONLY buying from the people who've best mastered the crafting mechanic. That, and if we get an alloy system like they've touched on, the quality isn't going to be as simple as "low or high," so you could consistently churn out high-durability equipment, for example, while a master of the mechanic might create lower-durability stuff but with higher other properties, but at a much slower rate.

 

It doesn't need to make all the difference in the world, on b, just enough of a difference to prevent "Hey, the only difference between my goods and that other guy's goods is material availability and RNG! T_T"

 

4) I think this is true, but keep in mind that they need not have zero overlap with combat. Simply ideas like timing, or simple strategic decisions, should be fine. But, yes, without breaking it down too much, that's the best general way of putting it. The things that allow you to be great at action combat shouldn't make you inherently very good at crafting. Crafting should require dynamic decision-making, but not as intensely as combat. It should be more focused and manageable... more strategic and less on-the-fly tactical. For example, the general rhythm/consistency of your hammering (if there's an active hammering segment) should be more important than how many milliseconds away from the absolute perfect moment to hammer you were with your hammer blows.

Edited by Lephys

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FWIW, I have done some blacksmithing in "real" life.  I'm not very good at it, but I can make knives, forks, spoons, etc.  (I've also have to make my own tongs, punches, etc.)

 

(ignoring raw materials and tools) in order to forge something, there are three basic things that need to happen

 

1.  You need to force air into your fire.  In days of yore, this would typically involve having someone operate bellows or running some kind of blower system using falling water.  Check out the following for a really interesting system I saw in Compludo in Spain:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trompe#/media/File:Catalan_forge.jpg

 

2.  You need someone to hold the hot metal and control what that metal is resting on:  the anvil, the horn, a hardy, what have you.  That person may also hold a punch or a chisel or some such

 

3.  You need someone or something to hit the metal at the right angle, with the appropriate amount of force.  In some cases, this can be mechanized (a trip hammer or a power hammer).  In other cases, people would have a hammer team (1-3 people whose job would be to swing hammers)

 

Let's assume that you wanted to build a "realistic" blacksmithing progression

 

Step 1 would involve identifying a good spot to build a forge.  Key considerations would include

 

1.  A source of running water.  You either need a strong flow OR you need the ability to create a dam and store water enough water to run the forge for some period of time.  (Rather than having labor points, you might consider limiting the amount of work that people can do by limiting the amount of water power they have)

 

2.  Proximity to raw materials:  Charcoal and iron are both heavy

 

Step 2 would focus on building all the various tools that you need to bootstrap your smithery. 

 

You're going to need an anvil, a variety of tongs/chisels/punches/hammers.  For a blacksmith, making/accumulating tools is almost as important as "skill"/"experience"

 

Step 3 is automation

 

3.  Automation:

 

Daming that stream / building that trip hammer / creating a blower system

 

Until you build an automated system, you are going to need at least two or better yet three smiths working together to make any kind of complicated piece.

(You'll want one person working the belows, another swinging the hammer, a third controling the placement of the piece and deciding when to heat the piece). 

 

This creates an interesting tension:  During the early game, you'll need multiple crafters to cooperating to produce a given piece. Once you build out your toolchain, you can do the same with one crafter.  To what extent to you want to be producing items now or investing in automation.

 

In my experience, blacksmithing is all about avoiding mistakes.  There's an enormous number of ways to screw up whatever you are crafting

 

1.  You can burn your metal (yes, steel will burn)

2.  Conversely, you can underheat your metal, leading to an excessive number of heats, and a lose of material to scale/oxidation

3.  You can overwork your metal and develop cracks

4.  Welds can fail

5.  You just can "see" the final piece

 

Each step in your smithing process is another chance to make a mistake.

 

What differentiates a "good" smith from a "bad" one is avoid these screw ups which produce substandard pieces, and this is why good smiths are economical smiths who use the least number of moves to create their final piece.

 

Sadly, I don't know what differentiates a master smith from a good one (and I fear that I never shall)

 

_________________

 

For me, the key take aways are:

 

1.  In order to do any real smithing, there is a laborius bootstrapping process.  In turn, this means that capturing a forge or even finding pre-made tools would be incredibly valuable at the start of a game.  In turn, a raid that is able to destroy the enemy's capital stock would be a significant blow.  If you want to run a campaign with "strong" crafting, let them import tools.  If you want a campaign with weak crafting, force them to come in naked.

 

2.  Locations that can support a forge can / should be made scarce as to support contention

 

3.  If I were going to have a smithing mini game, I'd focus on heating (making sure that you don't underheat / burn the metal), heating the correct location on the metal, and controlling hammer placement

Edited by narsille

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Excellent post, narsille!

 

As per your mention of all the different tools and such, another possibility would be for the "minigame" pseudo-simulation to focus more on your usage of the right tool to make the right impact, rather than on just swinging your hammer/using your tools so precisely that you happen to produce the perfect blade through your sheer mastery of actual forge-hammer-swinging-knowledge.

 

Oridi touched on this recently in the Minigame thread -- about the "minigame" for crafting being more about your mental abilities than your physical abilities -- and I mentioned that that was kinda like how turn-based combat works compared to real-time combat. On that note, I definitely think that the most valuable things for a minigame to focus on would be less time-sensitive things and more just "how effective/efficient was that decision?"-type things. Like you said, hammer placement rather than, say, some kind of hammer timing with a sweet-spot, or even hammer force (although, I think that could be something you set without a timed-button-press/charge-up-bar).

 

Honestly, I think it'd be really cool if, in place of the stereotypical "failures," you just had cracks, and the need to re-heat (and lost more material due to scale/oxidation, like you said) multiple times, etc. For example, maybe you determine that you need to hammer a blade 5 times to produce a good-quality blade, but, with your character's skill rating and the material you're dealing with (some fancy-shmancy metal), you can only manage 3 hammers, consistently, before you risk a huge chance of a crack. Either that, or the heat needs to be that much more precise for your character's mildly inadequate skill to screw something up (that could be RNGs limited role in the whole process). So, instead of some little crafting bar, or some representation of the entire crafting process resulting in total failure, magically, at the end, you hit your blade 1 time and the metal cracks. Now, you take that back to the beginning, melt it back into the bar you need, reheat it, and try again. You don't do EVERYTHING again. You didn't do everything in the first place. Only part of the process. But, maybe with certain messups, you can "fix" them a bit? You mentioned welds, and I'm not sure exactly how those work in the blacksmithing process, but maybe you can repair minor cracks and such so that you don't have to start over on the blade, but at the cost of the general quality of that piece of metal? I dunno.

 

There's a lot to draw from the real-world process, but it doesn't have to be a direct simulation of the doing of the process. But it can still represent how the process works, and how the end-result is affected by decision-making/action.

 

So, anywho... short version:

 

I very much agree with the idea of having a multistep process that could either involve multiple players at the same time, or could be somewhat automated so that one person could manage it all alone, at the resource cost of a facility and/or natural power source, etc. And I think focusing on the overall idea of each step is a great idea. You can do a bit better or worse at controlling the heating of the metal, for example, without playing DDR just to control that. You may not be perfect every time, even once you've "mastered" it, but you can make intelligent decisions that lead to the majority of the effectiveness of your heating, and not how effectively you can 360-no-scope the metal, 8P. Then, I think tool selection (different hammers, chisels, punches, like you said) and "aim" should be more important than timing, or really time-sensitive stuff of any kind. I'd honestly be fine with the point of your metal getting too cold to work properly simply being set by your character's skill, as well. So that, if you hammer away at it for 30 seconds, and you can't really do it any more good any further without re-heating it, your character basically just says "Nope," instead of you just hammering away because you're the player and what you say goes, and the metal breaking.

 

I think that's where character skill comes into play in this type of thing. The player doesn't need to be a master smith, because the character has all the smithing knowledge. The player just needs to know how to interact with the forge, and what affects the outcome of each step, etc. For example, maybe, when hammering/chiseling, etc. (When tooling the metal), when you get, say, a blade edge correct, your character's skill indicates this to you (some sort of 2D "progress" map on the metal -- cliche red-green spectrum being the indicator), so that you could see "I obviously don't need to hammer there again," but it still wouldn't tell you exactly where you needed to hammer to produce a perfect product. Basically, you could easily make sure you never over-hammer any given spot, but then your hammering might be too spread-out. Or, you could easily make sure it's not too spread-out, but at the risk of too much force being applied to certain areas from overlapping hammerings (basically, going beyond green in an area, and into the "excessive" zone, which is back downhill in quality/risks breaks/etc.).

 

That sort of thing. And, again, I think failure should just be whatever quality you stop at because you don't want to use more materials or spend more time getting it better than that, with the materials currently at your disposal and your character's current skill rating, etc.

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Adding a 5th principle:

  • Multiple crafters with the same needed area of expertise (A/E) working concurrently should be able to achieve a quicker result, with the time benefit diminishing with each crafter added. RNG chances should be based on the skill level of the highest level crafter in that A/E. Time benefit for additional crafters should be based upon the number of crafters and the quality of the RF used.
  • Multiple crafters with different A/E working concurrently should have better chances of achieving success than sequentially. Sequential crafting efforts should have an acceptable chance of success. Critical success, standard success, substandard success, and failure are  a good range of possible results for a recipe.
  • Any mini-game must be playable concurrently by all crafters participating in concurrent crafting effort.

For example the helm shown here

Crowfall_PreAlphaCraftingInterface.jpgwould have 3 possible slots for metals (basic or alloy), 1 for cloth, 1 for leather, 1 for flux, 1 for an additive (horn, gem, etc.), and 1 Thrall. I believe the thrall slot is not expressed in this example because only 1 thrall should ever be able to be slotted into any equippable item.

This requires up to 5 A/E needed to complete the recipe:

  • Armorer
  • Blacksmith
  • Leatherworker
  • Tailor
  • Thrall Overseer 

Armorers will all be blacksmiths, but these are separate skills on the skill tree, involved in the process, and multiple smiths can speed up the process for this item.

 All toons should start CF with Thrall Overseer skill at rank 0. For optimal results, the highest level overseer would need to be present for the entire assembly of the item for his level to affect the RNG, but number of overseers would not affect time to craft the item.

The minimum A/E required to craft any helm would be:

  • Armorer and Blacksmith (metal helm)
  • Armorer and Leatherworker (Leather helm)
  • Armorer and Tailor (cloth hat)

 

Armorer would be the lead crafter in the assembly because he has the basic helm recipe.

Edited by BurgundytheRed

Honestly, you are the type of person that is much to competitive, has zero compassion for other people and think you are better than everyone else. You likely love to troll people on a day to day bases to get others angry and laugh about it. You make playing any online game unfun for everyone else.  -Kuroaka

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Honestly, I think it'd be really cool if, in place of the stereotypical "failures," you just had cracks, and the need to re-heat (and lost more material due to scale/oxidation, like you said) multiple times, etc. For example, maybe you determine that you need to hammer a blade 5 times to produce a good-quality blade, but, with your character's skill rating and the material you're dealing with (some fancy-shmancy metal), you can only manage 3 hammers, consistently, before you risk a huge chance of a crack. Either that, or the heat needs to be that much more precise for your character's mildly inadequate skill to screw something up (that could be RNGs limited role in the whole process). So, instead of some little crafting bar, or some representation of the entire crafting process resulting in total failure, magically, at the end, you hit your blade 1 time and the metal cracks. Now, you take that back to the beginning, melt it back into the bar you need, reheat it, and try again. You don't do EVERYTHING again. You didn't do everything in the first place. Only part of the process. But, maybe with certain messups, you can "fix" them a bit? You mentioned welds, and I'm not sure exactly how those work in the blacksmithing process, but maybe you can repair minor cracks and such so that you don't have to start over on the blade, but at the cost of the general quality of that piece of metal? I dunno.

 

 

FWIW, cracks have a number of different impacts on a final piece

 

The most important is (probably) that a piece with a crack usually can't be heat treated. 

 

Heat treating - take the metal up to a very hot temperature and then suddenly lowering the temperature by quenching it in oil or water or a slave - makes your metal much much stronger.  This means that your armor can be much lighter and your weapons will cut better.  However, heat treating also places the metal under enormous stress.  If your metal has an imperfection, its going to break wide open.  (If I am making a knife, the last step before heat treating is filing down the blade trying to smooth out any tiny little cracks so these don't cause the blade to snap during the quenching.

 

The second issue with cracks is that these creating weak points that can cause the item to fail catastrophically.

 

If one were to decide to complete a piece with significant imperfections, I'd argue that

 

1.  The item would be significantly less capable then usual

2.  Each time the device gets used, there is some chance that it breaks completely

 

If you start to accumulate cracks, you have a choice between resmelting the piece OR completing something that won't be nearly as good

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^ Thanks for the info! Seems like a significant crack/weakness in the metal would essentially amount to a hard failure. But, maybe minor ones would be okay, but would make heat-treating the metal risky. So, if you wanted to make the optimal product, you'd have to start over to try and get a crack-free piece, but, if you didn't, you could still make a decent item, perhaps.

 

Again, it can stray from exact reality a bit.

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^ Thanks for the info! Seems like a significant crack/weakness in the metal would essentially amount to a hard failure. But, maybe minor ones would be okay, but would make heat-treating the metal risky. So, if you wanted to make the optimal product, you'd have to start over to try and get a crack-free piece, but, if you didn't, you could still make a decent item, perhaps.

 

Again, it can stray from exact reality a bit.

Yes, if you see a crack in a weapon or armor piece while you're finishing it,you may as well rework it or start over without trying to temper it.

Metals are crystals. Big crystals tend to be softer, small crystals harder, and when too many edges line up, you get a crack (interstitial defect).

Tempering (heat treating) tends to make smaller crystals and slow cooling tends to make larger ones. Annealing is the process of making larger crystals.

Japanese swordsmiths had a technique that insulated the majority of a blade with clay, but left the thin edge bare. Then they quickly doused the blade and removed it from the liquid, allowing the majority of the blade to anneal after the edge was tempered. This resulted in a very hard edge (small crystals) that stays sharp, and a springy main body of the blade (big crystals) that had no cracks.

Modern metallurgists theorize that a blade whose entire edge was one single crystal (no interstices, no interstitial defect possible) would be the hardest, strongest possible blade for a given alloy.

 

But  we digress. How about those interactive crafting mechanics ideas? 

Honestly, you are the type of person that is much to competitive, has zero compassion for other people and think you are better than everyone else. You likely love to troll people on a day to day bases to get others angry and laugh about it. You make playing any online game unfun for everyone else.  -Kuroaka

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  • 4 weeks later...

Well I not much for mini games, but in the original Darkfall (DF1) there was a top tier weapon called a sithra that required 3 different masteries (Weapon Smithing, Jewelry Smithing, and Alchemy). This was a single handed sword with the length of a pole arm (or close to it) but the blade was more light saber like and it did different types of damage depending on the blade type (lightning, holy, unholy, poison, fire, etc...). It could still be enchanted too.

 

I like the concept of different crafting skills being needed to create top end weapons/items. This enforces the working together aspect.

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