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checkyotrack

An Open Letter and Concerns about the Project

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Dude you should just get with the program. ACE want these forums for now to be about constructive feedback for the alpha stages of the game and not about what 97% of your 1185 post are made of.

 

Don't worry once the game has launched I am certain there will be guild forums for all the "playful" interactions you so desire. In the meantime find your local primary school and go take the kids lunch money it should hold you over until the core module is ready.

 

 

wow, I didnt think it was this easy to hit a nerve on some people.

I guess I am in the wrong forum, because this forum has obviously been taken over by PC SJW's.

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I am just going to leave this here.

 

http://www.engadget.com/2015/01/21/crowfall-creative-director-game-is-not-for-everyone/

 

If people want to get butt hurt and cry foul when things gets heated, then perhaps The Sims is a better game for you.

You're right that if people would get butt hurt and cry foul then this would not be the game they deserve.

 

However, just because you or a group of people feel entitled to bring this kind of behavior about because you were apart of a game like Shadowbane is like saying that a group of people who come from WoW to these forums have a right to demand more PvE Content.

 

When people come to a game that is crowd funded and put their hard earned dollar down on it, you are not reserving the right to bring behavior you or a group of people feel is appropriate, while at the same time shunning those who they themselves have put money down to help get this game going.

 

No one person's dollar(s) gives them the right to dictate how ACE should develop this game, nor how their community is moderated. Why? Because ACE is taking a HUGE risk right now, not just with your KS money but their own as well and as a studio they have brought more money to the table than any one person on these forums. They said it themselves that they pulled millions in private investment before going to KS. It should be inherently known that when you back a game in development that the scope/subject matter is subject to change on who the studio focuses as its player base, to what kind of Core Mechanics the game may or may not have as this game isn't just for SB players any longer but for everyone who wanted to help bring this game about.


"Oh I'm sooooo gonna enjoy playing them Centaurs"

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I've already gotten 2 warnings from arawulf for writing the word "autism". What's wrong with the word autism?

I'll try to explain, even though I think you're being disingenuous in your "innocence".

 

You're talking to people you don't know, with lives and personal challenges you can't understand, because we are all different. However, when you sling the word "autism" around, especially when you hint that posters might be "autistic", in a derogatory way, you're poking fun at a very real experience for many people, likely some of whom are backing Crowfall. 

 

I'll use myself as an example (although I never reported you; don't know who did): Once you tossed the word "autism" into a post of mine. Did you know that I have a mildly autistic child? How do you suppose that makes me feel about future posting to these forums? Do you think a person who is mildly autistic, say Aspergian, would feel good about posting to forums where people use his/her condition as an insult? 

 

Honestly, your previous use of "autistic" and "autism" is just a replacement for the old "wonderful" that is so clearly repugnant to most people. 

 

Before I get a nice hot flaming for even posting my thoughts here I'll also say this:

 

Someone mentioned the need to evolve to a more current model of gaming community in an earlier post to this thread. To that I say "Yes!"; girls and women make up a large segment of the gaming population at this time, along with kids who have been raised by gaming parents, and the vibe among the larger community must eventually change to reflect that altered demographic. Gamers are no longer the stereotypical dude 15-30 who used to dominate gaming; the conversation will necessarily change to meet the needs and interests of a greatly expanded definition of "gamer". That includes right here in the Crowfall universe. 


Click your profile name>Click Manage Ignore Prefs>Find "Add a new user to my list" at the bottom of the page>Type in a username>Check options>Save Changes>Silence is bliss.

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I think there is a disconnect here where people think what I am saying is mutually exclusive with allowing offensive behavior. Such is not the case.


You are so incredibly helpful, CYT. I don't know how I ever managed to do anything before we met. I was just bumbling my way through life, all lost-like. Thank you. My blessing cup runneth over.

SWrkfdj.jpg

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Wow, I'm going to have to fetch a small violin for this one.

 

All I'm seeing is tears about not being able to bully/mock people you don't agree with on ACE official forums and try to imply this was promised to you by ACE.

 

If you ever thought that was going to happen/fly in the long run, you are the one that needs (quite ironically) to check yo self.

 

Just because moderation was not full on when they established the forums and probably had much bigger concerns at the time does not make it okay to do whatever you want and then take it for granted. Official forums need to be properly moderated or it just does not look professional. They did the right thing, yes they should have done so from the get go but hey, no one is perfect.

Yeah agree there seems and has always seemed to be this notion that just because the game is niche, leans more towards the hardcore side of the spectrum and they invited players from a certain game, that certain behaviors should be allowed. I think perhaps the SBrs thought it was just the casual leaning posters were the ones that needed to adapt when in fact both sides need to adapt. This is a community for Crowfall backers and future players. What you played before doesn't' really matter anymore. Contribute to THIS game and leave your baggage behind.

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I am just going to leave this here.

 

http://www.engadget.com/2015/01/21/crowfall-creative-director-game-is-not-for-everyone/

 

If people want to get butt hurt and cry foul when things gets heated, then perhaps The Sims is a better game for you.

Thing is that applys to everyone. Not just those that one deems not worthy, or too casual or w/e. Perhaps some that think this game is for them and not others have it backwards.

Edited by pang

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You're right that if people would get butt hurt and cry foul then this would not be the game they deserve.

 

However, just because you or a group of people feel entitled to bring this kind of behavior about because you were apart of a game like Shadowbane is like saying that a group of people who come from WoW to these forums have a right to demand more PvE Content.

 

When people come to a game that is crowd funded and put their hard earned dollar down on it, you are not reserving the right to bring behavior you or a group of people feel is appropriate, while at the same time shunning those who they themselves have put money down to help get this game going.

 

No one person's dollar(s) gives them the right to dictate how ACE should develop this game, nor how their community is moderated. Why? Because ACE is taking a HUGE risk right now, not just with your KS money but their own as well and as a studio they have brought more money to the table than any one person on these forums. They said it themselves that they pulled millions in private investment before going to KS. It should be inherently known that when you back a game in development that the scope/subject matter is subject to change on who the studio focuses as its player base, to what kind of Core Mechanics the game may or may not have as this game isn't just for SB players any longer but for everyone who wanted to help bring this game about.

 

great point.

 

no one should be able to dictate how ACE handles things. This post was more or less an open letter to bring out discussion mainly because things are heading a way that some people in the forum deem might be the wrong direction.

 

From a marketing standpoint, we might be wrong, since making the forum and game more catered to the masses will bring in more money for the company. However, ACE did say multiple times that CF was a niche PVP game, not suited for everyone, and when they go back on their word we have to respond in some way imo.

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Dude you should just get with the program. ACE want these forums for now to be about constructive feedback for the alpha stages of the game and not about what 97% of your 1185 post are made of.

 

Don't worry once the game has launched I am certain there will be guild forums for all the "playful" interactions you so desire. In the meantime find your local primary school and go take the kids lunch money it should hold you over until the core module is ready.

!!! This post is insulting, I demand justice. Where is Agelmar?


y9tj8G5.png

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!!! This post is insulting, I demand justice. Where is Agelmar?

 

yea, it sucks when some people have to use personal attacks to get their point across.

Edited by zinnie

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!!! This post is insulting, I demand justice. Where is Agelmar?

 

yea, it sucks when some people have to use personal attacks to get their point across.

 

Maybe you two should go play The Sims?

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I don't think anyone presumes they can dictate policy change to ACE due to the fact they backed the game. However, as a backer and someone who wants this game to succeed I would like to foster constructive duscussion on its future direction.

Edited by CheckYoSelf

You are so incredibly helpful, CYT. I don't know how I ever managed to do anything before we met. I was just bumbling my way through life, all lost-like. Thank you. My blessing cup runneth over.

SWrkfdj.jpg

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Um, sir, this post is about constructive feedback. If you don't have something to contribute I would ask that you please calm down, your attacks and malice towards a specific "group" or "person" is scaring away the playerbase to actually contributing their thoughts. thank you.

 

 

ACE getting feedback is exactly the point. The way they run and organize the forums is for that express purpose. Not here to be edgy or play little drama games. If one has issue with that then yes should remove oneself from the community as its not constructive at all.

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After reading though all this, it seems to be a problem which comes up and up again.
 
Firstly, I think it is very generous on the developer's part that they allow such threads to be made that is called freedom of  speech.  People are free to criticize the developers on their own forums, something from my experience in the past is usually censored on all levels, especially in the case of Sega's respective forums and partners.
 
Getting upset and then attempting to rally banners because you're upset they won't allow you to be toxic on a forum is immature.
 
The posting, flame baiting and outward animosity directed towards anyone who either disagrees with someone else coming from various people here (I won't name names, nor point out groups or any affiliates, but you know who you are). Or attacks on anyone who defends them is immature and antagonistic, it also drives people away from the game. Already there have been cases where people have been turned off wanting to post on the forums (such as a friend of mine), because of abuse directed towards him because he put forward a legitimate set of arguments; everything from mocking his grammar, to his spelling to outright attempts to bait him with abuse. Even I have coped various degrees of abuse openly from some people on these forums because I decided to write something they didn't like.  Then they get upset that the developers crackdown on them for it? Does that make sense to you? They shouldn't get upset, they should learn it's not appropriate. It has nothing to do with the development of the game, it is purely forum conduct related, has nothing to do with the direction of the development and come release of the game, we are all starting from the starting line, so experience or not, this is a new game, this is a new gameplay formula so veteran in other games I doubt will amount to much.
 
Now onto the issue at hand, my major concern about the forums and the policies ACE enacts upon them is that they are very broad and equally very general.  They don't explicitly outline what is allowed and what isn't, which can maybe be contribution towards people finding ways to complain when they get in trouble.  If everything is outlined in a way where if someone breaks the rules, it is clearly stated "that thing isn't allowed".
 
It is saddening this may have to be the case because some people can't seem to show self restraint or a degree of civility here.
 
I think that ACE deciding to be strict with behaviour on the forums will have no impact on what players will be able to do in game.  With this stated I'd like to refer to another community to whom I belong to that of EVE Online.
 
EVE Online has a very polite, fantastic and generally positive community who encourages you to be a part of it, they detest and ostracize any and all toxic elements within their community.  All while pirating, stealing, scamming, ganking and fighting wars with each other, they all respect each other.  And in situations where such respect is violated, enemies will form alliances to crush that disrespect out of the community.  

In that game someone could gank you while you're exploring, they don't go "you suck, hahaha" or mock their portrait, or make fun of their opinion.  They go "this is how I got you, this is how you can avoid people getting you in the future!"  There is an air of respect for each other in that community.  I think ACE wants people on this forum to respect each other, in turn keep their immaturity off the boards.
 

There has been a fair push regarding announcements regarding the aspects of the game which can be monetized, which only applies to the EK's.  The only real update regarding PvP for a little bit now has been regarding how testing will work when combat testing time rolls around.  I get that, more money means more game on a better schedule.  May 7th was the last combat-focused update.  Since then the topics have been, in order:

  • Coins
  • Buy our stuff for a friend
  • EK
  • We may change EK stuff you bought, here's our plan for that
  • EK
  • Backer-only forums
  • Centaurs are Romans
  • Backers get more stuff for their EK
  • Testing will be iterative
Fair or not, this is taken as a pattern of focus to some of us and it leads to concern.

 


That is something I am also concerned about.  But showing "concern" has little positive nor constructive result;  What we need to do is follows:

Look back at the original Kickstarter package offerings, look back at the original stretch goals,  look back at their original plans and then compare them to their current then come up with a question to propose based on the gathered evidence which would be:

Have they made a radical change to their original design promise to the backer?

 

Changes to Backer Rewards:
 

What I saw judging based purely on what they have changed, based purely on observation alone and personal opinion combined.  I'll assume they got complaints from their high-level backers that they felt they deserved more for their money compared to the amount of money spent by lower level backers for what they felt was "better value for money" rewards.  (Considering that launch events, get together and parties where you interact with the developers rarely cost more than $300 for a VIP ticket and that they have to pay for themselves to fly or travel to the event.)

 

The value of Medium Sized Fortress and Small Sized Fortress

During the original kickstarter, the developers had yet to outline what they would look like respectively, so it came down to faith on part of us, the backers, remember we are "backing" a project, we are not pre-ordering a game.  They are still giving us what we paid for, even if we were not privy to exactly what it looked like.  Same problem and in equal parts same level of outcry and angst was directed towards Cloud Imperium for the same reasons.  However, at least unlike in the case of Star Citizen we are given our paid items as a package of bought items, where we are free to trade them to another account, as for "selling it" to someone, that's something you'd have to put forward to ACE as to if they will allow you to or not.  So if you feel you got ripped off, you are free to give your item to someone else and then in turn buy a new item.  Nothing is stopping you from doing that.

 

In the case of the "coin of the realm"

 

I'll have to not side with ACE in that case;  I think it's a design decision made by designers who felt that there was no possible way to make "trading" work when looking at systems like in Diablo 2.  I think that is sad, it would of worked, they simply decided to take the easy way out and appeal to people who came from MMOs and games where trading wasn't the primary way of economics.  They outlined the reasons they made their choice, but I think those reasons are both hollow and 'not good enough'.  They need to give a justifiable reason why they feel that currency trade is needed and why trading by commodity can't work on its own in the game.

 

What we need to do is instead of showing concern, or people's writing pointless threads which could lead to flaming or opinionated dribble where the original intent was more personal than that of a general care for the game and the community.  What we need is to challenge ACE about their design choices, specify exactly what it is we have an issue with and request an outline for their current plans, state that those plans be subject to change since they have yet to see if it will work or not (as is the case in making a game and being in pre-alpha while still working out how they will do monetization) and tell us why they decided upon making those changes.  This may be an unnecessary inconvenience, but I believe it is important for them to do it because they at least owe backers that much since those backers have already purchased the game and they have stated they are committed to taking on board the views of the backers.  I believe this extends beyound that of just the rich kids, rich adults and those who have deep pockets who decided to throw more than a thousand dollars at the game.
 
I actually don't like the idea of the highest level backers having direct say on the direction of the game to be honest.  That is just exchanging one publisher for another, but in this case what would amount to a credit union.
Edited by Psyctooth

My hubris is the size of a 2 by 4 nailed to the side of a YF-12 jet barrel rolling into a volcano piloted by a Tyrannosaurus Rex.

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To be honest i I have backed not only the vision, but the "atmosphere" of the hardcore PvP FFA environment of old times that was present here, where people killed each other in game and then talked trash and posted screenshots and insults on the boards, fueling the conflict further and thus increasing their involvement in the game. It's the glorious conflicts of old full of insults and poorly made sockstalking that was appealing, not all this "GL&HF" stuff this is turning into.

 

Ability to talk trash on the boards IS part of the game for many people posting here. And ACE is trying to apply "industry wide" standards for managing communities to their niche product and niche community. They really do need to work out a different approach here.

 

Although, I don't really give a poorly made socks.

Edited by rajah

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From a marketing standpoint, we might be wrong, since making the forum and game more catered to the masses will bring in more money for the company. However, ACE did say multiple times that CF was a niche PVP game, not suited for everyone, and when they go back on their word we have to respond in some way imo.

Exactly!  Many, including myself have asked for a rating, to no avail.  The term "niche" coupled with "not for everyone" statement was brilliant in the fact that emotionally EVERYONE wanted to be the one the game was for when in reality perhaps that was the intent. If you interpret the game is for you and I interpret the game is for me and a 10 year old sees it as being for them then in reality there is NO niche.  It is for EVERYONE.  And that would then explain the tightening of the ship that is the forum.   

 

Would be nice to see a rating, just sayin


Maybe it not about the happy ending. Maybe it's about the story.

RIP Doc Gonzo "to anyone...speak your mind...defend your position...be prepared for an Argument and enjoy the process of the discussion...that's all part of any good Forum experience"

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ACE getting feedback is exactly the point. The way they run and organize the forums is for that express purpose. Not here to be edgy or play little drama games. If one has issue with that then yes should remove oneself from the community as its not constructive at all.

 

So you don't think drama serves an important function in keeping attention and interest in a game marketed toward conflict? 


 

Er, what's "edging"?

 

 

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great point.

 

no one should be able to dictate how ACE handles things. This post was more or less an open letter to bring out discussion mainly because things are heading a way that some people in the forum deem might be the wrong direction.

 

From a marketing standpoint, we might be wrong, since making the forum and game more catered to the masses will bring in more money for the company. However, ACE did say multiple times that CF was a niche PVP game, not suited for everyone, and when they go back on their word we have to respond in some way imo.

Why do people continue to assume that these games will make developers money? Most games barely make even after production is complete and for a crowdfunded game there is no safety net like a publisher. Lets not forget that as of right now ACE is in debt to the private investors as those private investors expect a return on their investment while KS peeps have only their pledge packages as a return. If this project were to (heaven forbid) fail then yes KS pledgers would be ticked, but ACE would have to find a means to pay back that investment they took from private investors.

 

This game will indeed be a "niche" PvP game, as they have continuously stated that the game will have very little PvE Content.


"Oh I'm sooooo gonna enjoy playing them Centaurs"

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Maybe you two should go play The Sims?

 

aaaand we went full circle :)

 

Its nice that your point was to have constructive comments and yet you are one of the few that has to use personal attacks to try and validate your poor arguments. At least my poor posting is not hypocritical. 

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aaaand we went full circle :)

 

Its nice that your point was to have constructive comments and yet you are one of the few that has to use personal attacks to try and validate your poor arguments. At least my poor posting is not hypocritical. 

 

You do realize that by saying this you agree that I was initially right? Right?

 

Or maybe not, whatever. Point made, I am going to bed. Try to be more constructive in the future, it will help the game and I think that it is what most of us here want. 

 

Edit: Including ACE

Edited by Argasoth

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You do realize that by saying this you agree that I was initially right? Right?

 

Or maybe not, whatever. Point made, I am going to bed. Try to be more constructive in the future, it will help the game and I think that it is what most of us here want. 

 

Edit: Including ACE

 

I think he was being constructive, just not from your point of view. The idea that a full on "Do What You Want" game is something most players seek. It's what drew me to Eve Online for the years I played. His point, in my mind/assumption, was he is concerned development may be heading away from that and more towards how most developers include their casual player base instead of trying to keep the "niche" hardcore players, which was how Crowfall was initially pitched.


"Oh I'm sooooo gonna enjoy playing them Centaurs"

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