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Zomnivore

Have the devs talked at all about fulfilling the throne war intrigue vision?

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I've been pretty disappointed with the devs for not playing up the throne war, or the idea at all for deception betrayal etc.

 

I feel like its been done in some smaller games, and I've heard nothing really in terms of whats going to inspire them in that space.

 

 

Trouble in Terrorist Town, does some backstabbing stuff pretty adhoc and its a game that uses minimal structure to do it, but relies on building a lot of tools, and the devs seem to want to not even go far enough that route.

 

They seemed to dismiss that section of game-play by looking at the idea of posting boards for bounties (bounty hunting in general) and saying "ya we're not going to be doing that kind of thing."

 

 

So honestly what the hell are they planning on if they don't want to put in the tools to make it a deep part of the game, instead of some vestigial aspect of clans and just hosting clans.

 

Right now I'm not seeing it, and I don't see how they can justify the claim that its going to be like game of thrones, without some systems in game to host the experience.

 

 

OBEY uses a leaderboard and income and resources to inspire deception or obedience, with a ton of strategic depth in a very simple platform...

 

I just don't see any of the elements of either game, talked about...to, to really make the dream of deception, really have merit. I feel like they're going to play on the survival game genre's laissez faire aspect, and do nothing...invest nothing, and pretend like what comes out (if positive) was intended gameplay.

***

Aka the sky is falling and I need reassurance...or confirmation that the sky is indeed falling.

Edited by Zomnivore

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I remember discussing this in twitch chat too with you.

 

Valid question and I hope to see how this will be addressed too. I think once they have secured combat to a reasonable satisfaction, they are likely to look into this is my best guess, good luck!


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Not sure what Game of Thrones your read/watched, but I certainly don't remember any systemic tools or leaderboards needed to help along the politics, drama and warfare. Pretty sure we will have chat and the ability to kill others... sounds good enough to me.

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Intrigue is mostly up the players. One thing I really liked about UO was each server had a news reel of sorts that covered guild rivalries, interviewed movers and shakers, that sort of thing. It made participating in the community fun and seeing mention of your exploits was really gratifying. The site was official, too, so you really felt the people behind the game cared about what was going on.

 

I'm just reminiscing, but it's a thought.


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Intrigue happens all the time in EVE Online, it's entirely player generated and most often anyone who isn't part of inter-corp politics often never find out about it till after the fact and in SCOPE news or TheMittani.

 

I think what this is more about is, will Crowfall feature tools or have a non-restrictive system which would allow for it.  Such as the ability to steal a guild's bank contents or perform espionage and so on?

Well I think this game has a higher potential for it than even EVE, although unlike in EVE where you can rock up and blow up someone's home, which isn't really something you can do to someone's personal EK.

 

But, pretty sure if you have the reigns of power, yeah you could simply "eject the entire guild" off the EK, screwing with them.  You could destroy people's stuff on campaign, you can betray people, you can steal the guild bank and you can steal the guild coin of the realm.  Pretty sure this game will give you all the freedoms to be a spy or a Trojan horse.

 

But know this, 90% of the time, people don't do it because they can do it, they do it for a reason, often that reason is entirely political or entirely a personal grudge or entirely because it is purely business and they were paid to.

 

If you do it just because you can means everyone will hate you;  Having more enemies than friends in a hardcore game is not a good position to be in, unless you want to spend your entire life inside your EK and buy everything from the cash shop, may as well go play Landmark or Minecraft in that case.


My hubris is the size of a 2 by 4 nailed to the side of a YF-12 jet barrel rolling into a volcano piloted by a Tyrannosaurus Rex.

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Not sure what Game of Thrones your read/watched, but I certainly don't remember any systemic tools or leaderboards needed to help along the politics, drama and warfare. Pretty sure we will have chat and the ability to kill others... sounds good enough to me.

You obviously don't know what you're talking about. When did we have HP in real life? This goes on down the line, with almost every non/fictional concept transmuted into games, and makes your statement look pretty ridiculously opaque.

 

Why does hitscan exist, why do dragons exist, why can we double jump, why do we have giant sweeping particle effects during motion when almost no particle effect exists in reality during a physical swing.

 

You can tune things to be even more high key elements, high fantasy, highly stylized, you can promote things through contrast, through systems, through setting foundations for play patterns. You can execute things functionally better through systems that cheat reality, and cheat the grungy boring bits.

 

You might understand that you can swing a sword in a game pretty easily because its a game, and the act isn't supposed to be 1:1 as difficult in reality.

 

You don't "get" it. Stop hassling me because I do.

 

If you don't like the concept fine, w/e, but don't come into my QA and nag me.

Edited by Zomnivore

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You obviously don't know what you're talking about. When did we have HP in real life? This goes on down the line, with almost every non/fictional concept transmuted into games, and makes your statement look pretty ridiculously opaque.

 

Why does hitscan exist, why do dragons exist, why can we double jump, why do we have giant sweeping particle effects during motion when almost no particle effect exists in reality during a physical swing.

 

You can tune things to be even more high key elements, high fantasy, highly stylized, you can promote things through contrast, through systems, through setting foundations for play patterns.

 

You don't "get" it. Stop hassling me because I do.

 

If you don't like the concept fine, w/e, but don't come into my QA and nag me

Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning...

 

All I was saying is that what you are looking for will fulfill itself in terms of politics and drama.

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Its not wish fulfillment, its simply them selling a feature, with breadth, and then the community response for me expecting that seemingly being.

 

"we have a chat box"

 

Guy, every game has a chat box. Every* game.

 

Tell me, why aren't they all games of thrones?

 

Several pvp faction based games have chat boxes. Are they all game of thrones too?

 

 

Go play trouble in terrorist town, and get over your fear of socialization. Deceit is a fun mechanic, its almost role-playing but its different because its functionally in-system important and it does something psychologically engaging during normal fps gameplay.

 

Just go play it, come back when you have, and then if you hate the idea, you hate it, and you can come at me with the viewpoint that its not functionally impossible, or invalid conceptually, and its just a flavor thing that you and I disagree on, and you can shut up about it already.

 

If you already own Gmod (because at this point its been on sale a thousand times) you've got no excuses.

 

 

*Every good multiplayer game.

Edited by Zomnivore

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The sky is falling nonsense is indeed nonsense and a valid thing to be annoyed at.

 

Moving on.

 

 

@Adall Alternatively you could buy Obeygame, and make a decision about the value of leaderboards and how that other system works well with the guild portion of this kind of game.

Edited by Zomnivore

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The Dregs FFA CW seem like the best place for that stuff. FF will also likely be on all other CWs so betraying allies is pretty much built into the game from the ground up. Not sure if just don't understand a sandbox game or how they work but yeah others are correct in that you don't really need extra system to hold your hand in these types of games. It'll already but a thing that happens by design. Emergent gamepaly is a big deal to these Devs so don't think there's much to worry about there.

Edited by pang

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I don't know. Obviously we just sparked some massive drama in you with a chat box. I am sure you might like to do something about it in game if you could. That could easily escalate into something larger.

 

The thing is, they want emergent gameplay. System widgets actually don't help with that, instead they give players even more to focus on, limiting the emergent gameplay.

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What is it about leaderboards that gets people all hot and bothered and demanding they be in this game, too? I really don't get it, someone please explain.


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Tell me how engaging the deception of normal survival games is.

 

Most of them have been out for quite a while, and all I hear is that it amounts to "oh boy, I was your buddy for 5/x min, but I took your stuff."

 

 

Yes, its deception, yes its another system that allows deception, even more laissez faire then what I did suggest, and maybe theres something in there to be explored.

 

 

Its hardly exciting though, and it hardly makes you think of something new, and different from previous games where you had the potential to turn around on people. Like in other large scale mmo games.

 

The survival game level of betrayal to me is honestly a sub-level sort of atmosphere thing. If you aren't smart enough to work with that creeping doubt, and make it thematic you're losing out, and doing something imo too loosely without any real plan for how it would add value into the game productively...why?

 

@Aiona many competitive people want to be metered by the community and have a system that easily allows them to be discovered and recognized because it starts earning them income, gating who they're playing against, and creates a quick enough route to eSports that they want it quite a bit.

 

I see it as a system with potential in gameplay, in the deception side of things for creating incentive, and allowing people to subvert the paradigm of "we have incentive to work towards this" and how expectations create emotional contrast when they're subverted.

 

Obeygame if you want the exact thing I'm personally feeding off of.

Edited by Zomnivore

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What is it about leaderboards that gets people all hot and bothered and demanding they be in this game, too? I really don't get it, someone please explain.

I think its the PvP and E-sport correlation. They might feel like if the game is PvP based then you gotta have all these flashy numbers and leaderboards and rankings and w/e else bloated crap they can think of. If E-sport is ones things that great stick to it but yeah keep it out of this game pls.

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Tell me how engaging the deception of normal survival games is.

 

Most of them have been out for quite, a while, and all I hear is that it amounts to "oh boy, I was your buddy for 5min, but I took your stuff."

 

 

Yes, its deception, yes its another system that allows deception, even more laissez faire then what I did, and maybe theres something in there to be explored.

 

 

Its hardly exciting though, and it hardly makes you think of something new, and different from previous games where you had the potential to turn around on people. Like in other large scale mmo games.

You say people need to socialize and yet say you don't find the socializing aspect fun. Perhaps you just need to play with better people?

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You say people need to socialize and yet say you don't find the socializing aspect fun. Perhaps you just need to play with better people?

Sage advice.

(づ ˘ ³˘)づ

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You say people need to socialize and yet say you don't find the socializing aspect fun. Perhaps you just need to play with better people?

I don't like talking to you specifically because you are being subversive.

 

Woah, you mean someone who's in here to subvert me, I should work with them? You obviously don't understand that I have no incentive to be cooperative with someone actively trying to subvert me.

 

Basically where's the value in trying to socialize with someone so willing to try to screw with me out the gate, in a tactical sense me trying to run you off right now, is the right call, but once again, there's no structure here and the value of this exchange is going to evaporate as soon as it ends.

 

To make this have value I have to some how magic your mind into being cooperative and productive, but you're not here to do that, you're here to subvert me.

 

Duh.

 

So, look at that picture as a whole, and now think about if you could consistently create that sort of interplay between you and I, as a sort of game system.

 

The fact that I'm outlining the subtext of this exchange ruins some of the value, but creates a more clear understanding of the depth of whats going on, fundamentally we're talking about deception IN the moment, but the sub text and sub-goal system of what you're actively doing here, is where the value is.

 

While you try to maneuver me into a bad sub-plot space we're actively discussing the topic at hand in some fashion, and you want me to be wrong, but you also want me to feel wrong, that layered level of interaction creates a new thing entirely, a new total experience.

 

Course I don't know if you're capable of understanding the notion I'm trying to outline, but #shotsfired I don't care if you are, because duh I don't like you neener neener scram.

 

---

So Productive activity here is like combat.

 

Productive discussion = combat

 

The critique is a moment with potential for deception, but could also just be on the level kind of 'fair fighting'.

 

The dragged out circular logic, or the red herring is the misdirection, and the goal you have is for me to fail or leave because you don't like me personally or you don't like what productive activity lead by me does for me.

 

So your goal is to end productive activity, and then subvert that into promoting your self.

 

So your changing my attempt at personal gain, into a way to gain value for yourself through critique, and using deception through red herrings, and circular logic, to try to trap me. I've outlined the herring, and now I'm engaging you personally and trying to defeat you now that I've discovered your subversive action.

 

#conceptexecution #youcanthinkofourlanguageasasystemlikeagamesystembutideasandconceptshavealotofstructurewhetheritbesocialorliteralgrammarthetrendtowardsclearunderstandingofideasisthesortoflimitingframeworkithinkthedevsneedbutdontseemtowanttobuildthefactthatthisspacinginthishashtagishardtoreadisactuallyasynonymfortheproblemshavingtoolittlestructurecreatesinasystemaboutcommunication

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Anyone got any info of what the dev's goals are for this section of the game? Is it more of just hosting guilds, and the large picture of having stuff to compete over? The fealty tree is such a hooligan tease.

Edited by Zomnivore

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