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Zomnivore

Have the devs talked at all about fulfilling the throne war intrigue vision?

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Not trying to subvert you, you don't have any authority here to subvert (and neither do I for that matter). I merely answered your question in a way you didn't like and you lost your poorly made socks.

 

Sorry you don't like the answer of, "it isn't necessary to have systems in place to create conflict and drama akin to Game of Thrones. The game will naturally do that via chat and killing people."

 

I was trying to ease your worries by referencing that none of the things you mentioned exist in Game of Thrones, so don't worry if they won't be here.

 

Go calm down for a minute okay?

Edited by Adall

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You post the same complaint/request, you get the same objections that what you're asking for isn't needed or wanted, you react with the same victim/martyr intolerance taking all disagreement as personal attacks. This thread is going down exactly the same track as the last one, which is no big surprise since it started in the same place pointed in the same direction.

 

Let's just all go reread the previous thread; there's not going to be anything new here.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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@Jah Not really.

 

because this is a forum. Think of the forum as a game, and the list of who's on here, and the social engagement level. The forum is a well structured game system, moderators etc.

 

We're here with the goal to socially promote ourselves, and to get what we want put into the game, as well as gain appeal.

 

The forum uses chat, for combat, and uses opinion as the resource.

 

I want to sway high value people because their opinions are worth more. If I sway enough low level opinion I might be able to use that as a fulcrum to sway high level opinion.

 

Its all very stupid, but much more complex then "its just a chat box" if you want to use that as the argument.

-----------

 

 

Guys, you're missing the point. You shouldn't be posting here unless you're trying to answer my question. Yall dog piling is definitely giving me more information about who's a toss, but its not actually doing yourselves any favors because, at the end of the day you're in the wrong for not being on point.

 

I (btw am now addressing the circular argument) am not here to get stuck in the trap of arguing with you about a system I want to see.

 

I'm here to see if anyone has seen the devs discuss this topic, or their inspiration for this feature (or this features potential), in the game, outside of just the tagline.

 

 

---

btw my willingness to fight trolls is actually a part of me liking to socialize, and fight the good fight so honestly its not that I don't like socializing but the different forms of it are desirable in different spaces, and for different experiences, I converted the experience of talking to yall into one that I enjoy, but that takes effort that I had the energy on hand to duke out with yall. That same expectation of investment is why cheating the effort level for gamification is important to make deception something people are willing to do again and again, and not just one n done.

Edited by Zomnivore

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I have not seen any dev response about that kinda system so far.

 

Sometimes when they don't respond it's because they have answered a question already a gazillion times and sometimes they don't respond because that decision and structure is so far in the future of the game build that it's goofy for them to answer as anything they say will be a guess.

 

IMO it's too early to push them about this.  In order to have the system you're asking for they have to first flesh out combat, character stats, win/loss rulesets, etc.  They're so far away from having any of that done.

 

I get that the question is important and it's good that you've asked it as it's clearly crucial to you.  It's already on the dev's radar IMO as there have been some long threads about it and I'm sure Pann noticed.  You've asked it here so it is "on the record".

 

Now it's time to put on your patient hat and let the good folks at CF build the game out enough for them to have something to put in the system you're asking for.   It may be a few months until the devs are ready to answer how they're implementing the GoT part of things.  In the meanwhile I think there are a lot of posts about it that offer the devs a number of ways to approach it so it's a matter of speak your peace, bide your time, and if you feel like you get a new idea about a different way to handle it then add it to this thread.


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The Chronicles of Crowfall           The Free Lands of Azure            RIP Doc Gonzo.

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The fealty tree is such a hooligan tease.

 

I agree that the Dev's have not discussed the in-game systems they intend to deploy to facilitate "The Throne War Intrigue," however, I do believe the fealty tree is a major component to this aspect of CF.

 

Imagine a scenario where Guild abc is in the obvious lead; destined to win Campaign 136.  abc has 6 guilds who have sworn fealty to them (7 total guilds).  In winter, 4 of these subordinate guilds mutiny and form their own alliance, putting them in first place and causing Guild abc (now only 3 guilds) to fall to 3rd place.  Did this scenario shift who held the throne at the end of Campaign 136?  Yes it did.  And imagine the intrigue this creates in Campaign 152 when 5 of the original 7 guilds find themselves competing again for the winning throne.

 

IMHO, the Fealty Tree is a major feature of CF.

 

What other systems would you like to see added to CF?


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         http://crowfall.shivtr.com/  The Lantern Watch - A Crowfall-first guild. Welcome Home.

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The answer to the specific question "Have the devs talked at all about fulfilling the throne war intrigue vision?" is "No."


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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@Jah Not really.

 

because this is a forum. Think of the forum as a game, and the list of who's on here, and the social engagement level. The forum is a well structured game system, moderators etc.

 

We're here with the goal to socially promote ourselves, and to get what we want put into the game, as well as gain appeal.

 

The forum uses chat, for combat, and uses opinion as the resource.

 

I want to sway high value people because their opinions are worth more. If I sway enough low level opinion I might be able to use that as a fulcrum to sway high level opinion.

 

Its all very stupid, but much more complex then "its just a chat box" if you want to use that as the argument.

-----------

 

 

Guys, you're missing the point. You shouldn't be posting here unless you're trying to answer my question. Yall dog piling is definitely giving me more information about who's a toss, but its not actually doing yourselves any favors because, at the end of the day you're in the wrong for not being on point.

 

I (btw am now addressing the circular argument) am not here to get stuck in the trap of arguing with you about a system I want to see.

 

I'm here to see if anyone has seen the devs discuss this topic, or their inspiration for this feature (or this features potential), in the game, outside of just the tagline.

 

 

---

btw my willingness to fight trolls is actually a part of me liking to socialize, and fight the good fight so honestly its not that I don't like socializing but the different forms of it are desirable in different spaces, and for different experiences, I converted the experience of talking to yall into one that I enjoy, but that takes effort that I had the energy on hand to duke out with yall. That same expectation of investment is why cheating the effort level for gamification is important to make deception something people are willing to do again and again, and not just one n done.

Your question has been answered actually. Not liking the responses isn't the same as not getting a response.

 

To summarize what that response was:

"Extra mechanics are not needed due to how the game is designed to incorporate emergent gameplay by the players so the things being asked for will already happen naturally"

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My question hasn't been answered by a variety of people, and because this is a question about information, and a query for more, its best to give it some time.

 

To summarize "get dunked"

Emergent gameplay is a nice catchall for saying "we don't know whats going to happen, so what works works, works."

 

That doesn't mean anything.

 

It certainly doesn't make me feel better about them having a vision, for executing such a high level concept.

 

That doesn't solve wanting them to weight the dice and make certain types of things more common, or inevitable and structure the ant farm to do certain things.

 

Pretending like you can't have both is why I'm annoyed with most people who settle on "the chat box" and have no ambition for more. Let alone when I prove that its already been done, by other games...and acting like "emergent gameplay" is going to execute the high level feature of the game of thrones is annoying because the game of thrones has a ton of systems, and a ton of structure.

 

Ultimately I want them to announce a desire to create the weighted dice, and a goal for what the numbers will turn out to be.

 

My anxiety for that to happen sooner then later is because there are so many ambition-less people going "chat box nuff said'. That so many people are in a space to go "yes, that could be cool" or are in a space that lets them freely dream up potential, and they settle on "the chat box" shows how boring and ultimately unsatisfactory normal people are. Do you think reality is exciting? Do you think day to day the grind at work is interesting? Thats what you get when you let people loose. Ultimately they'll find the most efficient system and make it about the work, and not the fun. The most efficient way to get to the cheese is not the most fun.

Edited by Zomnivore

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My day to day work is interesting and fun.

 

For some people, finding the most efficient way to the cheese is hugely fun, and a system which chooses artificial complexity over organic simplicity at the expense of efficiency is the opposite of fun.

 

If the purpose of this thread was to get an answer to the question in the title, you have that answer. By continuing to post about the supposed needs for systems to enable the things players are spontaneously going to do anyway, you put the lie to your "you're in the wrong for not being on point" stance. It's incredibly hypocritical to maintain that your diatribes are relevant but direct responses to those diatribes are off topic.

 

Have you ever played Shadowbane, Eve, Darkfall, or other sandbox PVP games? The politics in those games are intriguing and complex. You don't need mechanical systems to incent scheming; a game world with a prize and more than two players in it who are able to talk to each other will generate endless political gameplay as a simple result of human nature.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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I think the biggest problem with your approach is that you are acting like something is wrong, something is missing, something is bad.  People disagree with that and they have a right to say so.

 

If what you really want to talk about are ideas that you think are cool, skip the part where you insist that "emergent gameplay" is meaningless, skip dwelling on your disappointment with the devs, skip questioning how the devs can justify their claims, and skip insulting the boring and unsatisfactory normal people who reply to you.

 

That stuff is derailing your thread.


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I'm pretty sure they made it abundantly clear that combat was primary, and that they are trying to find a successful system to build a game with. There is no Crowfall without combat, and their trying to tackle that, as well as all the material aspects of the game, sprites, terrain, art, to start the system.

 

They also already have a deep history in Sandbox games, so their not as worried about developing an intriguing social system, their primary fear is that their combat simulation won't be adequate to fill the PvP and adventures their game requires.

 

So, raising the subject and discussing options for kingdom manipulation is fine, expecting them to spend time speculating with you is dumb.

 

This is the combat production phase, all your input should be about how things relate to or operate in combat. You sound like a wife complaining about her husbands disinterest in wall colors while the husband is nailing stud walls together and planning for electrical wiring. If it ain't about plumbing, then shut up, there's nothing about the paint color that needs to be determined now.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Zomnivore, trying to follow this. I haven't  played the games you describe; I'm basically a role-player, but I've played some throne wars in my day.  

 

Are you saying you want the ultimate 'Throne War,' the 'King' to be determined mechanically on a board that totes up PvPs won and resources gathered, seized, etc?

 

And the win condition is the guy with the most is the top guy?

 

How does that promote intrigue?  How do you propose to quantify wheeling and dealing and somebody changing sides?  I just don't see how that type of thing is measurable.

 

Let's say I'm a master swordsmith for Guild X and I'm making swords for the next Guild War and somebody from the other side offers me a huge bribe to build in a potential flaw....I make the bad swords, take the money and run for the border.

 

Who gets the points for that?  Me, for throwing the battle and finessing the getaway, or the guy who came up with the idea of offering the bribe?

 

At the end of the day, I think the telling aspect would be the end result of the skull-duggery, and that's why I think the folks who are talking about chat have a great point.  Thrones are won by political chicanery, and back room deals and large armies with superior weapons and great intelligence networks.  And a lot of talking.

 

I'm not saying that the method you describe, as I understand it, isn't workable and that this type of thing isn't possible, but it reminds me of sitting in a meeting describing what we needed and the programmers sit back and look at each other and say....."Oooookay, that's gonna take a lot of development...."

 

Maybe something of that nature is already in the works, but they're still working out how it works and they don't want to toss out something half baked that might not be the final product.  Heck, even the avatars descriptions say 'subject to change' at the bottom of the screen.

 

This group is extremely detail oriented.  Let them figure out exactly what happens when I parry in quarte before they make a stab at what happens when I assassinate the king and try to seize the throne.  It's probably in the works somewhere at ACE.

 

(by the way, my job is a blast.  It's almost a shame to take the money)

Edited by carol9000

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I don't think combat is the most important thing.  I think combat is simply the foundation for the real game.

 

Once you get past having acceptable combat, that you can enjoy long term, you still need walls, and a roof...sure...but an empty house is boring as poorly made socks, and you leave. Whether or not it has a solid foundation or not.

 

If people are the interesting thing about your game, you've got nothing tying people down to your product other then their time investment and guess what, a new game can never beat an older game on time investment.

 

You're never going to get anywhere by chasing the same styles of game that people have loved played, and already gotten bored of.

Edited by Zomnivore

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Once you get past having acceptable combat, that you can enjoy long term, you still need walls, and a roof...sure...but an empty house is boring as poorly made socks, and you leave. Whether or not it has a solid foundation or not.

Have the dev's talked about the Game of Thrones part of the game?

 

Not really, it's too soon. They're working mostly on the structure of the game atm. 

 

But if they don't talk about it now, it won't get the attention it needs to work properly.

 

Actually, if they don't pay attention to the structure of the game now nothing will work properly in the game at all.  Give it time and they'll work on it when it pops up in the project queue.

 

But there are folks that are dismissing the need for clear GoT like structures to make the intrigue and politics really work.

 

Yep.  There are also folks that want the same type of setup that you do.  No one here on the boards really has a say about what the devs decide to do for their GoT scenario implementation but if you want to impact them at all then make specific, detailed, constructive posts about the setup you'd like and then add to that when you have new ideas about it.  Other than that, debating folks about the crucial need that you see for the structure that you want won't really go anywhere on this topic.  It's been debated, there are a number threads about it, so focus on creating detailed structures with great ideas. 

 

But ...

 

Focus on getting your ideas across to the devs by presenting them as clearly and as detailed as you can.  Once that is done let it go.  There's nothing that will be done on this GoT front until it's time has come in the project queue and that's a ways away  IMO.  You can spend your time debating with folks that are not going to share your idea or you can use your brain to flesh out your ideas and present them clearly.  One wastes your time and the other puts your ideas in a light where the devs can see them and take them into consideration.  

 

Pick your battles wisely.

 

Edited by oridi

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The Chronicles of Crowfall           The Free Lands of Azure            RIP Doc Gonzo.

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I don't think combat is the most important thing.  I think combat is simply the foundation for the real game.

 

 

We're in agreement there.  But to take your house-building analogy a step further, if they don't bake the bricks, the house will crumble in the first rain-storm.  

 

I guess what I want to say is that they are not that far along in development yet.  And there's probably a team at ACE who's looking at that part of the 'big picture' but they're doing the first things first.

 

I really hope it turns out to be more.  Because the concept of a big arena where we all just keep fighting each other time after time doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun to me, if there isn't a point to it ....if you can't get anywhere doing it.  But that's not to say there isn't a solution, but just that we don't know it yet.

 

I also agree with oridi that if you've got some ideas you ought to spell them out. With a game of this complexity, I think we need ways to quantify success and failure in measurable degrees other than straight combat superiority.

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I really hope it turns out to be more.  Because the concept of a big arena where we all just keep fighting each other time after time doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun to me, if there isn't a point to it ....if you can't get anywhere doing it.  But that's not to say there isn't a solution, but just that we don't know it yet.

 

 

Many people do want this actually.

I backed the game mainly because of the Dying Worlds. The idea that I could spent 6 months in an mmo, and then reset the entire map and start over was something that no one had done before.

It wont be an arena, trust me. The maps will be huge and there will be a lot to do in said campaigns.

 

ACE have said several times that they don't want the Campaigns to be a Battleground, but more mmo worlds that reset themselves when you meet certain criteria.

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The answer to the specific question "Have the devs talked at all about fulfilling the throne war intrigue vision?" is "No."


(づ ˘ ³˘)づ

Hug it Out

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Not sure what Game of Thrones your read/watched, but I certainly don't remember any systemic tools or leaderboards needed to help along the politics, drama and warfare. Pretty sure we will have chat and the ability to kill others... sounds good enough to me.

Fair enough, but then what separates CF from any other PvP game with a chatbox if that's all that is needed for a Throne War Simulator?  ACE is trying to differentiate CF and you are saying it will be just like every other game.


Luke I am your Uncle... Bob.  What, my sister Padmè never mentioned me?

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Fair enough, but then what separates CF from any other PvP game with a chatbox if that's all that is needed for a Throne War Simulator?  ACE is trying to differentiate CF and you are saying it will be just like every other game.

Not saying that at all. Also, pretty sure you have the answers you need to this. If you really need me to answer I can...

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