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valor

Reply to MMORPG.com: The Active Passive Training Bottleneck

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I won't fault someone for not reading my whole post, but are you disagreeing with my conclusions being drawn in my response to Concern #3?

 

 

I do agree that we should start delineating between the term skill (stat points improving the overall strength of your character in specific ways) and ability (The actual abilities that your character uses to perform actions in game), but CF's FAQ reads that way, which adds an extra layer of confusion.  

I read the whole thing.  Why would you assume differently?

 

I disagree with what you stated in the way the combo system will work, but that's just because I saw what ThomasB said in a different light.  I think it'll be exactly like some of the other's have described; hit button 1 to swing your sword left, hit it again to swing back to the right, and hit it a third time to swing overhead.  Not hit button 1 to swing your sword, then buttons 2, 3, 4 will change to new abilities.

 

I also disagree with the amount of items that will be available for active/passive training, but that was about it.

 

I agree with everything else for the most part.

 

Some of the things that the article author wrote his post are clearly wrong though, and the correct information can be found in the FAQ.  IE:  The 50/50 rule, but Primal already corrected that.  The information regarding discipline swapping can be found; which you stated and also correctly stated it's not clearly defined if you lose the progress or not.  I am pretty sure though they clarified in either a video or a thread, but I do not recall where, and can't find it.  I remember it being though that you lose the abilities + progress, but because I can't find it...well yea.


[@--(o.O)@]

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IMO the reviewing author put too much stock in Crowfall being an MMO. It's closer to a MOBA. It's a MMOBA. The kind of character development he seemed to be looking for exists mostly in full MMO's or single player games. FOTM is a given in Crowfall. Let's hope the gap between the FOTM and the rest is never that large.


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Let's hope the gap between the FOTM and the rest is never that large.

I'm not sure FOTM will apply since they are not going for full class balance.  There may be ideal builds for different situations, but I doubt you'll see 1000 rangers running together because it's the latest and greatest.


[@--(o.O)@]

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I read the whole thing.  Why would you assume differently?

 

I disagree with what you stated in the way the combo system will work, but that's just because I saw what ThomasB said in a different light.  I think it'll be exactly like some of the other's have described; hit button 1 to swing your sword left, hit it again to swing back to the right, and hit it a third time to swing overhead.  Not hit button 1 to swing your sword, then buttons 2, 3, 4 will change to new abilities.

 

I also disagree with the amount of items that will be available for active/passive training, but that was about it.

 

I agree with everything else for the most part.

 

Some of the things that the article author wrote his post are clearly wrong though, and the correct information can be found in the FAQ.  IE:  The 50/50 rule, but Primal already corrected that.  The information regarding discipline swapping can be found; which you stated and also correctly stated it's not clearly defined if you lose the progress or not.  I am pretty sure though they clarified in either a video or a thread, but I do not recall where, and can't find it.  I remember it being though that you lose the abilities + progress, but because I can't find it...well yea.

Pretty sure in that video they made with Thomas and Tully, he said in fact the ability changes. Meaning, first hit is Fireball rank I, hit 2 is Fireball rank II, hit 3 is Fireball rank III. Also the FAQ actually says the action bar icon and ability changes...

 

Q: Can you tell us a little more about the “combo model”?

 

Think of it as follows: each combat power that has a different combat power as a prerequisite. 

In Crowfall there are many powers that are chained: they are essentially "hidden" from the player until the prerequisite power is used.

 

For example let’s look at the Knight's Onslaught power series. 

 

The player never sees Onslaught II and Onslaught III on their power bar until the point that they can be activated. To be eligible to activate Onslaught II the player must first perform Onslaught I. The player is only eligible to use Onslaught II for a brief period of time -- and if (and only if) they do so, can they now use Onslaught III.  

 

As the power combo chain goes deeper, the damage and effects of that series increases. In many cases there are unique effects on the final power in a combo chain.

 

Animators really love combos as well, because each subsequent power in the combo chain can have increasingly badass animations -- and it looks seamless, because you know exactly what state the character will be in at the end of each combo move/beginning of the next.  

 

In a lot of MMOs, the character has to go back to a "neutral" state between each move and as a result the animations don't flow together seamlessly... instead they look really disjointed.

 

http://crowfall.com/#/news/combat-chat

Edited by pang

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Pretty sure in that video they made with Thomas and Tully, he said in fact the ability changes. Meaning, first hit is Fireball rank I, hit 2 is Fireball rank II, hit 3 is Fireball rank III. Also the FAQ actually says the action bar icon changes...

 

So more or less exactly what I was saying?  I said swing sword left, right, and overhead.  But that wasn't my point.  My point was it won't be Fireball I opens up Meteor Shower 2 which opens up Hell on Earth 3.  A great example right now might be the way Witcher 3 combos work, or some of the auto attack actions for SMITE characters.


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So more or less exactly what I was saying?  I said swing sword left, right, and overhead.  But that wasn't my point.  My point was it won't be Fireball I opens up Meteor Shower 2 which opens up Hell on Earth 3.  A great example right now might be the way Witcher 3 combos work, or some of the auto attack actions for SMITE characters.

It sounds like it'll be a lot deeper than just left swing, right swing, was my point.

 

It says it adds new effects with each combo chain, so while the name might stay the same it could very well add things like an AoE meteor shower or ground based AoE and DoTs for example.

Edited by pang

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So more or less exactly what I was saying?  I said swing sword left, right, and overhead.  But that wasn't my point.  My point was it won't be Fireball I opens up Meteor Shower 2 which opens up Hell on Earth 3.  A great example right now might be the way Witcher 3 combos work, or some of the auto attack actions for SMITE characters.

I left my thoughts incomplete.  Let me explain how I think this system will work.

 

Base Abilities

1. Sword Attack Rank 1 - 2 - 3

2. Shield attack 1 - 2 -3

 

Promotion Class Abilities 1 - 2 -3

3. PBAoE attack 1 - 2 -3

4. Knock back 1 - 2 -3

 

Discipline Runes

5. Thow Sword Attack 1 - 2 -3

6. Lunge Attack 1 - 2 -3

(ALSO, opens up new versions of combos for skills 1-4 such as adding magical damage or adding blocking ect)

 

 

 

Players will get to pick to actively level any active ability but have to choose a specific rank to level passively.  So, you might pick Knock back 2 because of it's affects and Lunge 1 because of how often you use it.

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As a general comment, the Journalism on MMORPG is poor at best. I have a degree in Journalism, but you don't need one to be able to spot this fact.

 

This largely springs from the editor not paying any of his writers any money (at least this was the case, when I was asked to write for MMORPG in the past).

 

This results in these columns, where people hide uninformed opinions behind pretty heavily edited words. Reading these articles tends to be fairly frustrating, because they're so non-objective and generally naive.

 

The entire nature of this article, being critical of a system that hasn't even been fully designed yet, is pretty bloody stupid. It's like writing a review of a hotel while it's still being built.

Edited by xaine

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Key points of the thread so far.

 

1. We need to see how speculative this article is and the kind of damage that speculation can cause (see Fox News and other media outlets).

 

2. Skills and abilities are obviously different, but people get confused. They also muck up Friendly Fire and Free-for-all though, maybe we just let the plebs be confused.

 

3. Toxo... well... just nevermind, he is a special poster!

 

Honestly, not sure what there is to debate here, the guy posts a lot of facts and then his pathetic brain begins to try and make sense of them. His ability to theorycraft is quite poor. Call him out on it in the comments on mmorpg.com or just leave it alone.

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All of this seems like jumping the gun, as per usual, we are pretty much all speculating right now. But I will bite.

 

The current progression system and ideas of "choice" are definitely worrisome to me, but we will see how it progresses. I think I would much rather see some way to "respec" outside of the campaign worlds. Say you could train a bunch of skills/abilities at all times, but only have a certain loadout equipped on your character. When entering a campaign, that loadout will be locked in.

 

I will definitely have a problem with deleting characters after spending real money (VIP time) training them up for months/years. Then again, that will depend on how the progression feels. If each character feels like EVE leveling up (AKA, you will never train everything), it will be a lot to throw away. If the characters progress fast enough that you feel like you can just thrown them away at any time, I doubt the game will hold my attention for very long.

 

I am not looking for a MOBA, if they want to make you care about your characters at all, they need to provide some ways to adapt them to how your play will change over time. There are way too many questions to answer, so I am just going to wait and see and give my feedback when the time comes.


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Key points of the thread so far.

1. We need to see how speculative this article is and the kind of damage that speculation can cause (see Fox News and other media outlets).

2. Skills and abilities are obviously different, but people get confused. They also muck up Friendly Fire and Free-for-all though, maybe we just let the plebs be confused.

3. Toxo... well... just nevermind, he is a special poster!

Honestly, not sure what there is to debate here, the guy posts a lot of facts and then his pathetic brain begins to try and make sense of them. His ability to theorycraft is quite poor. Call him out on it in the comments on mmorpg.com or just leave it alone.

 

 

lol @ comparing them to Fox News.


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Replied to this thread there early on (SoJhin). To recap the OP there did not come across as a person who even played Shadowbane and because of which had little understanding how archtypes and limits on skills actually both creates more templates and more complexity rather then less.

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I will definitely have a problem with deleting characters after spending real money (VIP time) training them up for months/years. Then again, that will depend on how the progression feels. If each character feels like EVE leveling up (AKA, you will never train everything), it will be a lot to throw away. If the characters progress fast enough that you feel like you can just thrown them away at any time, I doubt the game will hold my attention for very long.

I see people not deleting characters, but buying slots for more characters.  This adding to the business model of ACE allow players to cap skills relatively quickly and for more flexibility, play other characters.  If you max out your character slots, you just buy a few more.

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People are used to mmo's that require you to spend months or years leveling, questing, getting the best armor and weapons.  Just so that they will EVENTUALLY get to actually play the game.

 

As I understand it, CF will let you hit the ground running.  You log in, pick up a stick or find a rusted bent sword and start wacking people on the head.  People that join CF a year after it starts will still be able to be competitive.  Now! not after months of catching up.  

 

This is not what most people are used to.  Some people dont like things they are not used to.  Here in Texas, we have ranches that are counted in sections instead of acres.  Miles and miles of open range.  Yet you will find trails that are about a foot wide and 7 or 8 inches deep.  Cow trails.  Cows go from one place to another in single file, following each other.  Cows dont like change either.

 

So let ACE blaze a new trail. Eventually the cows will discover it.  Then the mmorpg.com crowd will crow about how they backed it all along.

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People are used to mmo's that require you to spend months or years leveling, questing, getting the best armor and weapons. Just so that they will EVENTUALLY get to actually play the game.

 

As I understand it, CF will let you hit the ground running. You log in, pick up a stick or find a rusted bent sword and start wacking people on the head. People that join CF a year after it starts will still be able to be competitive. Now! not after months of catching up.

 

This is not what most people are used to. Some people dont like things they are not used to. Here in Texas, we have ranches that are counted in sections instead of acres. Miles and miles of open range. Yet you will find trails that are about a foot wide and 7 or 8 inches deep. Cow trails. Cows go from one place to another in single file, following each other. Cows dont like change either.

 

So let ACE blaze a new trail. Eventually the cows will discover it. Then the mmorpg.com crowd will crow about how they backed it all along.

A very Caw-ky response and I agree that this is new but I love the unforgiving factor of building your character. To me it seems like there is just Soo much room to build that you won't be bottle necked Edited by lakez

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Miles and miles of open range.  Yet you will find trails that are about a foot wide and 7 or 8 inches deep.  Cow trails.  Cows go from one place to another in single file, following each other.  Cows dont like change either.

 

 

 

I agree with your post, but what the custard is this lol

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People are used to mmo's that require you to spend months or years leveling, questing, getting the best armor and weapons.  Just so that they will EVENTUALLY get to actually play the game.

 

As I understand it, CF will let you hit the ground running.  You log in, pick up a stick or find a rusted bent sword and start wacking people on the head.  People that join CF a year after it starts will still be able to be competitive.  Now! not after months of catching up.  

 

This is not what most people are used to.  Some people dont like things they are not used to.  Here in Texas, we have ranches that are counted in sections instead of acres.  Miles and miles of open range.  Yet you will find trails that are about a foot wide and 7 or 8 inches deep.  Cow trails.  Cows go from one place to another in single file, following each other.  Cows dont like change either.

 

So let ACE blaze a new trail. Eventually the cows will discover it.  Then the mmorpg.com crowd will crow about how they backed it all along.

I get it, but this is a double edged sword, is all I am saying. It is human nature to grow somewhat attached to things, and is a reason we are driven to do much of what we do in every day life. Friends, family, work, school, etc., all of this is part of who you are and something you will interact with. Characters in a video game are another extension of this. I have played plenty of games where I never really "got into the game" enough to continue playing. With no investment into the avatar I am playing, what is the point of playing at all? If I am left with a bunch of arbitrary choices in the game that I am stuck with, what choice am I really making? For these choices to be meaningful, you need to be able to experience many of them fully before locking in on something. Which is why many games have ways to respec a character. There are ways to prevent people "gaming" the system, with simply time locks, or trial periods for an advanced class.

 

Allowing people to invest time, energy and money into the game is what is going to keep them playing it. If everything you do can simply be thrown away or re-rolled, I think it is going to be a problem. Again, I will see how it "feels" (the most important part) and come back later with feedback. Blazing a new trail is not a bed of roses. It is going to be rocky and things are going to most likely need modification.


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Has that MMORPG guy even looked at this website properly, nice post Valor as always. The worst part is people will read his post and don´t give crowfall a look them self but they won´t read this one.


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Honestly the people who use MMORPG.com as a determining factor as to whether or not they plan on playing the game? Those are the exact people I don't want playing this game LOL.

Edited by scree

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