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Fifty shades of greyboxing - Official discussion thread

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<snip>

 

This is just an observation, folks, so don't be too harsh in criticism. Discussion however is welcome (including disagreement).

 

To their credit, it's just the Keep that they're showing us :) There are still Estates, Forts, Castles, Fortresses, Citadels and Palaces. There very well could be bastions and towers in the future (fingers crossed!) and this is just how the Keep works. I'd imagine more of a Fortress having more fortifications than a Keep, but since it's so early it's unlikely that this Keep is set in metaphorical stone. I look forward to seeing if they put towers in or not, but if they don't I really hope they put them in one or more of the other designs!


Can we have a Bard? If not as an Archetype or Promotion, then maybe a Discipline?


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To their credit, it's just the Keep that they're showing us :) There are still Estates, Forts, Castles, Fortresses, Citadels and Palaces. There very well could be bastions and towers in the future (fingers crossed!) and this is just how the Keep works. I'd imagine more of a Fortress having more fortifications than a Keep, but since it's so early it's unlikely that this Keep is set in metaphorical stone. I look forward to seeing if they put towers in or not, but if they don't I really hope they put them in one or more of the other designs!

 

is there something I could put rapunzel in?  I'd love to do a Mario Bro's event where I place females in towers then tell people to go save the princess!


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I wonder how long and how much time and effort is needed to rank up keeps and other structures? Seems like it would be a while.

it would take a while.

Edited by Mox

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I wonder how long and how much time and effort is needed to rank up keeps and other structures? Seems like it would be a while.

 

Pretty easy to guess based on the campaign length, with 1,3 or maybe 6 month campaigns, you'd expect seasons to be as short as a week or a month, 

 

Buildings may go up as soon as you get the materials to build them, that's uncertain, but the actual construction may be days. All speculation of course, but you can look at different qualities and do some basic deductions.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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I love this update showing some tidbits of Crowfall universe as it's being developed. The Knight moving around the stronghold looks cool, very fluid!

 

Exciting to know that some epic battles will eventually take place in this kind of environment. Alpha is coming!  :)

Edited by courant101

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I love this update showing some tidbits of Crowfall universe as it's being developed. The Knight moving around the stronghold looks cool, very fluid!

 

Exciting to know that some epic battles will eventually take place in this kind of environment. Alpha is coming!  :)

 

yw, it'll be interesting for sure.  ^_^


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All to often in RTW it was a better strat to abandon the walls sometimes and focus on a more effective choke point INSIDE the castle(the streets usually). Don't think all the action HAS to happen outside.

I agree 100%, especially if the players can add a wall around the keep portion (fancy hunting lodge building) the defenders can retreat if need be to a last stand position/fall back line or position. I wish the CF developers would have added walls around the keep portion of the fort instead of wings one one side or both.


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As the greyboxing stands, moving defenders across the top of the wall exposes them to attacker fire repeatedly as they move from block unit to block unit across the wall top. This is a minor point I suppose and the present design could be there for the 'fun game' factor with which I have absolutely no problem. I would rather have fun than be realistically enclosed. However since the 'realistic' design for the defenders is better it may well be needed because of the potential for 'voxel destruction' thru artillery and magic. Considering the time and resources (and lives) it would take to repair or improve a keep then taking it by an attacker too easily would tend to force more players into a simple mobile forces and no effort to try and build or repair any fortification.

 

JTC's Design Rules #47: Funism > Realism

 

You're right -- but actual keep defenders didn't have to wrestle with target combatants while using mouselook and a third person camera.  In playing the game, having a small wall was far more detrimental to the defenders then helpful; it provides minimal protection but was really bad about blocking line of sight for the defenders to target players on the ground.  

 

We needed a way for defenders to be able to get out a little bit beyond the wall, and these little 'jetty's' (I'm using the term that we use for oceans, since there isn't really any corresponding structure in castles that I am aware of) seems to work nicely. 

 

Todd


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I agree 100%, especially if the players can add a wall around the keep portion (fancy hunting lodge building) the defenders can retreat if need be to a last stand position/fall back line or position. I wish the CF developers would have added walls around the keep portion of the fort instead of wings one one side or both.

 

As I said, the Castle will be constructed with concentric walls, so you can "fall back" if the outer ring falls.

 

Todd

ACE

 


J Todd Coleman

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We needed a way for defenders to be able to get out a little bit beyond the wall, and these little 'jetty's' (I'm using the term that we use for oceans, since there isn't really any corresponding structure in castles that I am aware of) seems to work nicely.

 

The star forts Psyentific posted about solve this problem in an elegant, interesting, and historically educational manner.


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We needed a way for defenders to be able to get out a little bit beyond the wall, and these little 'jetty's' (I'm using the term that we use for oceans, since there isn't really any corresponding structure in castles that I am aware of) seems to work nicely. 

 

That was actually a historical problem that lead to one of the more revolutionary changes in fortress design. I've already posted at length about it here as well as here, thanks Jihan.

Diagram:

 

5zhtEVn.png

 

As a quick summary, the solution to the 'jetty' problem, of the defenders being unable to fire on some attackers close to the walls, was solved by elongating the towers into a point. The problem with the jetties is that, thanks to the voxel-destruction system, I can just chuck a fireball or a giant hammer at it and now it's not a problem anymore. In addition, thanks to the character-collision system, there would probably only be room for one or two defenders per jetty. At best, it's a supplement to a proper solution, at worst it's a deathtrap.

 

The historical solution was to modify the towers, rather than the walls; by lengthening and triangularizing the towers their rearward coverage increased, making it easier to fire on attackers near the walls. They also gained the ability to fire onto each other's base, which meant that there were no longer 'dead zones' where the fortifications could obscure the attackers from oncoming fire.

 

As an added bonus, star forts are visually distinct; bloody everyone has castles, but I've only seen star forts a handful of times. If these wind up being Crowfall's forts, they'll be instantly recognizable and visually distinct, on top of being eminently practical.

 

Historical Examples:

 

fort-bourtange-groningen-netherlands.jpg

 

 

eLJs1Bt.jpg

 

 

kt30evw.jpg

 

Edited by Psyentific

Hardcore gamer & tabletop enthusiast. Enjoys roleplaying, pretending to be stupid, and one-sided fun.

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JTC's Design Rules #47: Funism > Realism

 

You're right -- but actual keep defenders didn't have to wrestle with target combatants while using mouselook and a third person camera.  In playing the game, having a small wall was far more detrimental to the defenders then helpful; it provides minimal protection but was really bad about blocking line of sight for the defenders to target players on the ground.  

 

We needed a way for defenders to be able to get out a little bit beyond the wall, and these little 'jetty's' (I'm using the term that we use for oceans, since there isn't really any corresponding structure in castles that I am aware of) seems to work nicely. 

 

Todd

I believe they would be properly called Salients, which are projections on battlements used to cover salient angles.

 

Azeron, star forts were invented in Europe before the flintlock pistol.

Edited by BurgundytheRed

Honestly, you are the type of person that is much to competitive, has zero compassion for other people and think you are better than everyone else. You likely love to troll people on a day to day bases to get others angry and laugh about it. You make playing any online game unfun for everyone else.  -Kuroaka

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JTC's Design Rules #47: Funism > Realism

 

You're right -- but actual keep defenders didn't have to wrestle with target combatants while using mouselook and a third person camera.  In playing the game, having a small wall was far more detrimental to the defenders then helpful; it provides minimal protection but was really bad about blocking line of sight for the defenders to target players on the ground.  

 

We needed a way for defenders to be able to get out a little bit beyond the wall, and these little 'jetty's' (I'm using the term that we use for oceans, since there isn't really any corresponding structure in castles that I am aware of) seems to work nicely. 

 

Todd

 

I loved the little 'jetties' but I did have one suggestion: if you move the small piece of wall forward to the front edge of the jetty then the defender isn't horribly exposed when on the jetty. They lose the easy forward line of sight (LoS) but they keep the side LoS and are way less vulnerable. The loss of the easy forward LoS could even add interesting play since then full LoS on a jetty would require a defender on each neighbouring jetty so they could get LoS on their neighbours front edge as well as their own side edges.

 

Food for thought.

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JTC's Design Rules #47: Funism > Realism

 

You're right -- but actual keep defenders didn't have to wrestle with target combatants while using mouselook and a third person camera.  In playing the game, having a small wall was far more detrimental to the defenders then helpful; it provides minimal protection but was really bad about blocking line of sight for the defenders to target players on the ground.  

 

We needed a way for defenders to be able to get out a little bit beyond the wall, and these little 'jetty's' (I'm using the term that we use for oceans, since there isn't really any corresponding structure in castles that I am aware of) seems to work nicely. 

 

Todd

 

Thanks for the clarifications, good point being able to hit players on the ground. Your "jetty's' are Bastion terrace's or A bartizan or Echaugette (But jetty's is quicker and easier to type) Sans walls and roof so we can hit ground targets. I'm glad you guy's are taking play-ability seriously and not always listening to us nit pickers.

 

640px-Tour_de_Belem_detail_1_082006.JPG

 

Warprose, on 07 Jun 2015 - 9:56 PM, said:snapback.png

 

I agree 100%, especially if the players can add a wall around the keep portion (fancy hunting lodge building) the defenders can retreat if need be to a last stand position/fall back line or position. I wish the CF developers would have added walls around the keep portion of the fort instead of wings one one side or both.

As I said, the Castle will be constructed with concentric walls, so you can "fall back" if the outer ring falls.

 

Todd

ACE

 

OMG..if I knew you would respond to my post I would have invested more thought into the post and included pictures...lol, no, really the art of the various forts, keeps, castles etc appears very different from more of less typical castle designs, thus requiring a different defense stratagem.

 

mottebailey.gifSimple fort.  krak.gif Much more complicated Castle, but both have "inner walls" fall backs.

 

 

fort-small-parcel-empty.jpg

 

Simple Fort. I don't see a real fall back position here, other than the hunting lodge.

 

keep-large-parcel-empty.jpg

 

 

Large Keep. Again if attacked in the middle section, the hunting lodge is the fall back position unless the defenders retreat to the side wings.


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