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primal

RIP The Crowdfunder

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It’s been a few months since Crowfall’s kickstarter has ended, and since we’ve had a recent post from ACE on this subject, I would like to discuss ACE’s shift from crowdfunding to Investment-seeking. Don your tinfoil hats.

The state of the community has changed a lot since the first few weeks we /fondly/ remember. It’s been gradual and it started long before turning it backer-only, or snuffing out the toxicity. Some people like the changes, some don’t. The core of what I want to get out of this discussion is an answer to this question; Have the changes to the forum been done to foster a thriving community, or was it done to become more appealing to major investors?

These forums had an insanely active community in the beginning for being the type of game CF is. I guess it could be considered the wild-west, but out of all that conflict and people debating and flaming sparked conversation. Forum ‘fights’ were not just about each other’s guilds or whatever, but about what was thought about the game design and theory crafting. It was thriving, especially for being piecemealed information up to the KS reveal and targeting the communities JTodd and GW knew they could get on board…from UO,SB, and (yes, even w101). Niche communities they know have been salivating over a homage to old HC PVP games. Now there are maybe 100 [active?] posters out of 15k+ backers. That’s no bueno. I’ve seen crowdfunded games with much worse premises captivate a greater community. Crowdfunding require a crowd, and a lot of people look at activity before buying into a game. I could see the most appealing game pitch in the world, but if I look at the community and see low activity, that raises red flags.

An environment that facilitates political discussions is a necessity for a PVP game, but it’s a minor detail. I think what we have is a lack of understanding of the core community’s roots. It’s sad, because there is so much potential in this game and crowd. The hype train was going at light-speed and the KS campaign far exceeded what many of us were expecting, they couldn’t even keep up with stretch goals at one point. Around two months ago the community shifted gears, a new CM was hired, mods re-evaluated, and the vision for what these forums should be changed. Was this just potential cleanup to make it look better from an outside perspective? Was this hypetrain tossed for a million dollars in angel investors? A million dollars, compared to the community potential. I’m not a business man, and I’m not going to sit here and armchair CEO, but it seemed to me like they had funding to complete everything they told us they could, and now they’re going after investors to hire more developers to get the product in our hands faster. So get it in our hands faster to build hype, but stifle the community that runs on the hype it builds. ACE had this community riled up, and if that community could have been left to continue to build, cultivate, and bring in new blood by word of mouth, I think the potential for the players buying in would have smashed that million or so out of the park.

Making these forums less appealing to the core of your community, the hardcore crowd and the w101-esque crowd, by alienating them both by telling one “This isn’t the lawless forums you want it to be anymore” while also telling the other “This game is not for you, it won’t appeal to everyone and we’re okay with that!” to tame the forums down has led to where it is today. This would be like Star Citizen snuffing out their Wing Commander fans. The formula was obviously working to be in the top-20 most crowdfunded game, so why the change? This activity might be normal for other games in prealpha, but not in any successful crowdfunded game community I’ve been in. This is why I think that the crowdfunding mentality is gone here, and has moved onto a different mindset. It feels like it’s been planned all along. They got what they needed from hype training the old communities, and now it’s off to a different strategy.

I remember debating this earlier, and someone said that one of the reasons being because major guild leaders aren’t on the forums. My answer to that is, how can I be a GL and tell my guild to jump in and get into the information and involve themselves in the community, when at the same time I have to explain they have to pay GW a door fee just to participate and see if they like the game or not. Will this game change because of the shift in community? Maybe it will, maybe it won’t. But I think that if you realize your community now consists of mostly softcores, because the hardcores consider the forums a turn off, you then cater to the only customers you have left.



With that wall-of-text being said, I’m going to end this by quoting something I posted a few months ago;

Some people feel like ACE crusaders coming in here looking at the micro problem, when we're looking at the macro implications. Losing doc was terrible and what caused this discussion, yes. But you few are blind if you don't see this as a change in tide. All you EVE, Wow, whatever players don't understand game politics at all. EVE was tame hogwash. We go from Tully to a EVE CM with what seems like no understanding of this type of community and slams doc for an obvious political attack against QFT.

This is a rivalry that caused this, not docs posting. Pann/whoever got had by a scrub rivalry from over a decade ago and they're laughing their asses off right now. But more than having a CM or new rules that doesn't understand the roots of their community, the way this forum and game is governed from here on out has changed. This won't be Shadowbane or even UO or those nostalgic rivalries you guys remember having no matter how much they advertise it as such at this point. Welcome to the land of eggshells.

When you guys defending ACE notice a change when we give up on this, I want you too look back at the initial postings of what this game was supposed to be...and remember what it could of been. I slept on it, and I feel like my predictions are right. Call me toxic or not at this point.


☆ We are in a positive posting drought, so just post. Be the change you want the forums to be. Go wild. Just follow your positive posting star. ☆
☆:*´¨`*:.•.¸¸.•´¯`•.♥.•´¯`•.¸¸.•..:*´¨`*:.☆

(¯`’•.¸*♫♪♥(✿◠‿◠)♥♫♪*¸.•’´¯) Member of the Pro-ACE Club (¯`’•.¸*♫♪♥(✿◠‿◠)♥♫♪*¸.•’´¯)

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Not sure this will survive a lock

 

And by that account, not sure it's worth posting any real thoughts in it.

 

I will stick to posting on the ever popular EK threads


 

This game looks like a larger scale version of marvel heroes so far with forts.  - nephiral marts 7 2015

 

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Impossible for me to comment without bringing up moderation practices. It'll get locked down before it even gets started. So, for the sake of not getting this thread locked and to step on some tiny epeens -- I'm out.

Pretty much says it all ^^^.   The egg shell syndrome.    

 

", I want you too look back at the initial postings of what this game was supposed to be...and remember what it could of been"

 

f9nbMS7.jpg

 

THIS is what brought me here.   Play2Crush.   Seems a long time ago and a completely different game and forum.


Maybe it not about the happy ending. Maybe it's about the story.

RIP Doc Gonzo "to anyone...speak your mind...defend your position...be prepared for an Argument and enjoy the process of the discussion...that's all part of any good Forum experience"

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Pretty much says it all ^^^.   The egg shell syndrome.    

 

", I want you too look back at the initial postings of what this game was supposed to be...and remember what it could of been"

 

f9nbMS7.jpg

 

THIS is what brought me here.   Play2Crush.   Seems a long time ago and a completely different game and forum.

 

Are you suggesting that the "forum game" is what was being advertised here? (Just curious.)

 

Edit: This is a genuine question. I would like to learn more about what your expectations were, forum wise.

Edited by arawulf

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All games go through cycles of hype and boredom during development.  You are hyped when you are getting bombarded with information, and you are less hyped when you are getting no information or a very consistent rate of minor information.  In a few months when they start talking about pre-alpha tests and actually getting ready to open the doors to some of the crowdfunders things will pick up again, and once players are in the game and streaming there will be plenty for all to talk about. 

 

On top of that maybe it doesn't have to be one reason or the other for them cleaning up the forums, maybe it was beneficial for many many reasons. 

 

You may have your views on how they would best serve loyal fans or certain communities from other games and what not, and that's fine but I think they are doing a good job so far personally. 

 

I'm a shadowbane player, from early on in shadowbane, I see nothing wrong with what ACE has done and think their decisions have actually been quite intuitive. 

 

I think the problem here is you always get the same group of people, who seem to feel like they are ACE's "real" fans and that other people don't count as much trying to push their ideals on what the forum should be.  Sharing your opinions is fine, but making a post every few days about the same thing over and over again seems a bit silly. 

 

ACE has not betrayed their shadowbane fans, they have not betrayed wiz101 fans, or any other fans, they haven't betrayed anyone, they've simply stuck to what they see fit for their own vision, all  the while knowing their game would not be for everyone.  That means even some wiz101 or shadowbane fans will like it, and some will not. 

 

Edit:  Also as far as the forum activity... Look at games like landmark and EQN, arguably further ahead in development, lots of initial hype behind them, not currently a ton of forum activity. 

 

Understanding that Crowfall is still david and not goliath, it should be no surprise that their forums aren't the most active pre-pre-alpha... there's a lot of time between now and release, and the forums will almost certainly pick up at a dramatic rate once there's more for the public to see.

 

 

 

Pretty much says it all ^^^.   The egg shell syndrome.    

 

", I want you too look back at the initial postings of what this game was supposed to be...and remember what it could of been"

 

f9nbMS7.jpg

 

THIS is what brought me here.   Play2Crush.   Seems a long time ago and a completely different game and forum.

 

Nothing they've announced about how the game will work contradicts any of those ideas. 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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And by that account, not sure it's worth posting any real thoughts in it.

 

I think this is a pretty valid topic to discuss regarding the community, especially if you disagree with me.


☆ We are in a positive posting drought, so just post. Be the change you want the forums to be. Go wild. Just follow your positive posting star. ☆
☆:*´¨`*:.•.¸¸.•´¯`•.♥.•´¯`•.¸¸.•..:*´¨`*:.☆

(¯`’•.¸*♫♪♥(✿◠‿◠)♥♫♪*¸.•’´¯) Member of the Pro-ACE Club (¯`’•.¸*♫♪♥(✿◠‿◠)♥♫♪*¸.•’´¯)

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I think they betrayed the Wiz 101 fans, simply because they're Wiz 101 players (RIP Blaze Duskdreamer). As soon as you made any kind of stance on looting or PvP, they picked up their deck and dived back into the spiral.

 

I DO think these forums have been prettyied up for the investors, who may or may not have voiced an opinion about the "toxicity" of the forums. And regardless of how much money you make, I know a cute fluffy kitten when i smell one.

 

Do I believe it's the death of crowdfunding? No I don't. Do I agree with going backer only? No I don't. People in the MMO world spend a lot of time sitting on the fence. They've put their money where their mouth is before and they got burned. Vaporware became even more prominent when kickstarter gained popularity. Between crowdfunding and Early Access, the MMO world is full of traps. So the majority of MMO players sit and wait.

 

While they're sitting on the fences, they hear of this "hardcore PvP game" whose forums give out warning points for petty stuff. Now, they may be like Sheen/VN and have broken in knee pads, so they're used to having their ears pulled. But I know when the forums went backer only, there were quite a few forums that went "told ya so", "glad I dodged that bullet", etc.

 

More like a flock of smeagles running around trying to protect "my precious". You can sit there and say "o-m-g gais, the forums isn't the game". What's also not a game is hiding behind obscure pieces of the CoC to target dissenting opinions. Oh right, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all? It's promoting a culture of yes men, and yes men = WoW clones.

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Are you suggesting that the "forum game" is what was being advertised here? (Just curious.)

 

Edit: This is a genuine question. I would like to learn more about what your expectations were, forum wise.

I think, from being here from Day 1, it was portrayed as a  complete package.  Not sure how many times we, the ones that stood by ACE in those early days were told " the game starts here in the forums".  Hell, even CT said it in a way only he could.  

 

Posted 28 January 2015 - 07:39 AM

I haven't read through the 8 pages of this thread, but it is a similar conversation being had in a few others. Things I want to point out (that I am simply repeating here again): 1. A difference of opinion of what this game is or isn't does not equate to a personal attack or should be considered as being hostile 2. Forum banter makes for great fuel for political payback 3. What anyone else says, thinks, suggests, etc. is only speculation, unless and until, an official ArtCraft employee states otherwise 4. The best way to disagree with someone who simply refuses to understand your point of view is to not reply back to them

 

Things we do know, as stated by previous communications from the devs. There will be PvP in this game, which if it includes land and resources conquering, will be extremely brutal for anyone who does not have any experience with that type of game. Politics start today, so start brushing up on your forum skills and start to find friends willing to fight, because you will need them. There will be commerce, so there is going to be a place for those who enjoy crafting and not being soldiers all the time. They are going to integrate these two communities in ways that are unknown to any of us at this point.

 

From experience, I can also tell you that nothing said in these forums will be as heartbreaking and frustrating as losing your town, city, property, clan (whatever type of land conquering game this turns out to be) the first time. Nothing.

 

I look forward to playing with and against all of you. Friendships made during strife are usually long-lasting, so get ready to invest some emotions into this. If done right, this will be the best virtual experience any of us has ever had. Cheers!

Edited by conspiracy theorist, 28 January 2015 - 07:41 AM.


Maybe it not about the happy ending. Maybe it's about the story.

RIP Doc Gonzo "to anyone...speak your mind...defend your position...be prepared for an Argument and enjoy the process of the discussion...that's all part of any good Forum experience"

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and I think the hype cycle and a lack of content only applies to a certain few. I'm a tr0ll. Wear it custard proudly. But check my posting frequency. Check my thread creation. I'm obviously not bored enough to run around here and cause havoc. I'll stick to the same posting behavior I had before. Sure, there are others that are socksposting and hammer down. But I've seen some real boredom come out from the other side of the fence. Now that's either due to the dog and pony show for investors, stupidity, or just being bored.

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I think the problem here is you always get the same group of people, who seem to feel like they are ACE's "real" fans and that other people don't count as much trying to push their ideals on what the forum should be.

I agree with you that community participation will ebb and flow with the development cycle, but when you have 100 people posting out of 15k, it's time to reevaluate your strategies. That is what the main point of my post is, maybe the community is no longer the strategy, and it is now more focused on appeal to investors now. I have been a part of several KS games that the hype did not stop after KS ended, even for the years leading up to delivering something playable. Yes, the community would rehash some of the same old theorycrafting, but it continued to build and bring in new blood. They went after the old-school HC communities, and they know what baggage that brought with them, they should own it...not change after what they had was working...if crowdfunding was indeed still their business focus.

 

As far as the quote above, I'd like to reiterate there aren't many active posters here. It IS the same few groups of people, and maybe on both our sides of the fence, we're the only ones left that still continue to participate regardless of the changes. You might vehemently disagree with everything we say, but without this back and forth banter there would be almost no activity, or new ideas for the devs to latch onto.


☆ We are in a positive posting drought, so just post. Be the change you want the forums to be. Go wild. Just follow your positive posting star. ☆
☆:*´¨`*:.•.¸¸.•´¯`•.♥.•´¯`•.¸¸.•..:*´¨`*:.☆

(¯`’•.¸*♫♪♥(✿◠‿◠)♥♫♪*¸.•’´¯) Member of the Pro-ACE Club (¯`’•.¸*♫♪♥(✿◠‿◠)♥♫♪*¸.•’´¯)

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I think this is a pretty valid topic to discuss regarding the community, especially if you disagree with me.

Sure.

 

I said my piece ob how we as the niche pvp crowd are ruining it for ourselves.

Pretty sure you were there.

 

But I think we already passed the line with CF, so I find it hard to see a point.

 

As I said elsewhere, we are too busy fighting each other and trying to get the other side banned or cast out, to really cone together and back up around a game made for us.

 

I don't think ACE is straying, I don't think the forum have changed to make it look better.

I do think we are acting like children, before we should.

Meaning, there will be plenty of time for backstabbing and politics later. It is just not the right time now, at this early stage.

 

I do think, that as long as we keep this up, the only people that will be left, is the EK fans and the misguided pve mmo players.

I'm the end, everyone would be unhappy about that.


 

This game looks like a larger scale version of marvel heroes so far with forts.  - nephiral marts 7 2015

 

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Thedoctor got me thinking about how intrinsically tied a game and it's forum are earlier today. Does an MMO require a forum experience? I think that no, an MMO doesn't. Most theme park MMO's would be fine without an official forum at all. However, an MMO that is as reliant on positive and negative player interactions on a broader scale than just an individual here and there does require a centralized location to help fuel conflict, alliances, etc.. This is even more true when you consider that guilds will be spread out over the various campaigns. In their current state these forums would fulfill the necessary requirements, but they would not be sufficient.

 

I agree with the ideas about target audience.

 

I know some of the drop off can be attributed to the changes you've laid out, but as much is probably just people paying their fee and moving on, playing whatever.

 

In terms of the game itself, I haven't seen anything that makes me think that gameplay will be anything other than what we were told, to be fair there hasn't been a ton for awhile. This last update gave us some promising tidbits, we'll see what comes tomorrow. However if the environment doesn't evolve to accommodate conflict among peers without fear of falling into a trap, it will be a less fulfilling game imo. Does that change have to happen right now? Probably not. But if it hasn't happened by the middle of beta then I would have concerns.


 

Er, what's "edging"?

 

 

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All games go through cycles of hype and boredom during development.  You are hyped when you are getting bombarded with information, and you are less hyped when you are getting no information or a very consistent rate of minor information.  In a few months when they start talking about pre-alpha tests and actually getting ready to open the doors to some of the crowdfunders things will pick up again, and once players are in the game and streaming there will be plenty for all to talk about. 

 

On top of that maybe it doesn't have to be one reason or the other for them cleaning up the forums, maybe it was beneficial for many many reasons. 

 

You may have your views on how they would best serve loyal fans or certain communities from other games and what not, and that's fine but I think they are doing a good job so far personally. 

 

I'm a shadowbane player, from early on in shadowbane, I see nothing wrong with what ACE has done and think their decisions have actually been quite intuitive. 

 

I think the problem here is you always get the same group of people, who seem to feel like they are ACE's "real" fans and that other people don't count as much trying to push their ideals on what the forum should be.  Sharing your opinions is fine, but making a post every few days about the same thing over and over again seems a bit silly. 

 

ACE has not betrayed their shadowbane fans, they have not betrayed wiz101 fans, or any other fans, they haven't betrayed anyone, they've simply stuck to what they see fit for their own vision, all  the while knowing their game would not be for everyone.  That means even some wiz101 or shadowbane fans will like it, and some will not. 

 

Edit:  Also as far as the forum activity... Look at games like landmark and EQN, arguably further ahead in development, lots of initial hype behind them, not currently a ton of forum activity. 

 

Understanding that Crowfall is still david and not goliath, it should be no surprise that their forums aren't the most active pre-pre-alpha... there's a lot of time between now and release, and the forums will almost certainly pick up at a dramatic rate once there's more for the public to see.

 

 

 

 

Nothing they've announced about how the game will work contradicts any of those ideas. 

 

so what's next Master VikingNail? In your vast forums experience, are they done? What's the next step towards (i'll just edit myself here)-ism? They good? Or more drugs need to be planted on homeless people?

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