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primal

RIP The Crowdfunder

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You don't need to commend someone for suggesting an idea you disagree with, but you don't need to belittle them either. I don't understand the problem?

 

 

 

Well we'll just have to disagree there, because at least in the rulesets i'll be playing, it would be a survival game... you are going to lose everything on you if you die, and one of the goals is to progress enough to where you have shelter,protection,storage, to weather the losses you take when you die. It may have a lot more features built around it to add to the gameplay, but it is at its core built on the same principle as survival pvp games... aka trying to survive against the threat of other players or suffering major setbacks.

 

Full loot full loss was a feature of Ultima Online a PvP MMO that came out in 1998, the difference between a PvP oriented game and an"survival" game is the objectives even if sometimes the end result may be the same in dying and losing everything you own. In a game like crowfall the objectives will be to battle for control points, be it resources, export areas, defensible positions... In a survival game the "objective" is to survive... Even though death and loot is expected in both the end objectives for the games are different. Edited by wargasmo

"He's like Batman except without the moral compass" ~Juror during first innocent verdict 

 

Ghost's of War, PvP gaming community founded 2002

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You don't need to commend someone for suggesting an idea you disagree with, but you don't need to belittle them either.  I don't understand the problem?

 

A young boy walks up to the stove where all the burners are smoking hot. The boy reaches out to touch the burner and a woman smacks down his hand and says ," That was stupid, dont do that again or you will burn your hand & then I will send you to your room". He never goes to the stove again.

 

A different boy walks up to a similar stove and reaches out to touch it. A woman than pulls him away and says, "Now there, don't do that. Why dont you play with your blocks instead". So he does. Later that day he comes back to the stove and reaches out to touch it, with no woman there to save him he touches it and burns his hand.

 

MESSAGE:

 

It is more beneficial to be blunt & honest than kind & misleading. If it's stupid it is. Who cares about your emotions? Your feelings don't change the fact that it's stupid.


You're hilarious dude, you deserve awards for your degree of wit and intelligence, you truly do.

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Full loot full loss was a feature of Ultima Online a PvP MMO, the difference between a PvP oriented game and an"survival" game is the objectives even if sometimes the end result may be the same in dying and losing everything you own. In a game like crowfall the objectives will be to battle for control points, be it resources, export areas, defensible positions... In a survival game the "objective" is to survive... Even though death and loot is expected in both the end objectives for the games are different.

In the newer survival games base building and territorial control has become a large part of the games.  For resources and defensible positions.  I remember building a giant base in Rust in a certain area specifically because it was hard to siege and had tons of resources and irradiated animals nearby to farm.  

 

I won't deny that mmorpgs have more in depth systems... but at their very core they strive to do the same things.  Just that MMORPGs have the potential to do them with a bit more depth and meaning behind it. 

 

Edit:  Anyway enough about that... but my point is that you don't need forums to foster the most hardcore pvp environments... and people can agree or disagree but there are already some modern examples of such things.

 

 

 

A young boy walks up to the stove where all the burners are smoking hot. The boy reaches out to touch the burner and a woman smacks down his hand and says ," That was stupid, dont do that again or you will burn your hand & then I will send you to your room". He never goes to the stove again.

 

A different boy walks up to a similar stove and reaches out to touch it. A woman than pulls him away and says, "Now there, don't do that. Why dont you play with your blocks instead". So he does. Later that day he comes back to the stove and reaches out to touch it, with no woman there to save him he touches it and burns his hand.

 

MESSAGE:

 

It is more beneficial to be blunt & honest than kind & misleading. If it's stupid it is. Who cares about your emotions? Your feelings don't change the fact that it's stupid.

Uhhh lol... sorry but someone suggesting an idea you don't agree with is not like burning your hand on a stove.  Also your example was poor, the second example makes no sense, why would the woman not tell the boy about the dangers of touching the stove, just in a less abusive way? 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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You can get inside someones head just fine by crushing or harassing (not insulting) them on the battlefield. And if you consider my guild a joke even before the game has started, my advice is: don't underestimate anyone. My guild thread is a good example to bring up though. It's full of disrespectful behavior towards me and my guild. And that thread is just one of many others. Those threads are exactly what chases people away, not the rules that ACE has enforced on these forums. It baffles me you guys don't see that.

 

 

Prime example, this thread was littered with "disrespectful behavior" and what is meant by disrespect?

 

Well, the guild copied another guild's exact outline structure wise.

The guild essentially copy pasted the other guilds website.

The guild appears to have another entities emblem, which is actually a copyright infringement.

And to top it off, it has a goofy name.

SO what happened? People called him on it, said it was stupid.

 

Why? From life experience we know that "copy cat" brands guilds dont succeed in MMO life. But it's not seen as constructive criticism though it APPEARS his guild is doomed to fail, he just gets butt hurt and makes an uneducated reply.

(mind you this is coming from an unbiased third party)

 

Why should I let you be the driving force of the game I seek? Why should your voice matter above the rest?

Edited by knossos

You're hilarious dude, you deserve awards for your degree of wit and intelligence, you truly do.

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Well but that was kind of my point viking your background seems to come from games that while similar may not have the same community forums... Like I said earlier coming from JTodds Shadowbane while small scale fights would happen quickly and sporadically almost every large scale war had ties to the forums... The forums were the PR/spin campaign to go hand and hand with the ground war going on on game... And it was important! If for whatever reason popular opinion went against you, you could find more and more guilds allying up with whoever you were fighting... So while you may not see how forums factor into the game at large based on your experiences trust me that some of us have had the exact opposite experience ... Like cireolle said earlier... Kingdoms have been crushed into dust because of forum shouting.


"He's like Batman except without the moral compass" ~Juror during first innocent verdict 

 

Ghost's of War, PvP gaming community founded 2002

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 05:45 PM

ASB(after SB) I played many many games, searching and seeking the ambiance of what I once had.  I would hear or read of a game, hit their forums to see what the game was like, then never play it.   I changed my m.o. and just d/l random games and played.  Then I would hit the forums.....and lose interest in the game.

Finally reached the point where I just played various games and never even knew if there were forums connected to them.

 

SB and the UBI forums went hand in hand.  Yes, the forums were hardcore and abrasive.  But they were fun.  Almost as much fun as the game itself, certainly they were entertaining.

 

I understand what ACE is trying to do with these forums.  I hold no grudge against them for trying to attain their goals here.  But their actions are removing what little 'entertainment' there was here. Hopefully, the game will not reflect the forum.  And hopefully, once the game is up, the flavor of the forums will change to reflect the game.  

 

 

Tl;dr   This is supposed to be a bloody, ravenous, free for all, gank fest of a game.  The forums are tea and crumpets.

 

 

 

 

copied from another thread.  Saw no reason to add anything more.

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Well but that was kind of my point viking your background seems to come from games that while similar may not have the same community forums... Like I said earlier coming from JTodds Shadowbane while small scale fights would happen quickly and sporadically almost every large scale war had ties to the forums... The forums were the PR/spin campaign to go hand and hand with the ground war going on on game... And it was important! If for whatever reason popular opinion went against you, you could find more and more guilds allying up with whoever you were fighting... So while you may not see how forums factor into the game at large based on your experiences trust me that some of us have had the exact opposite experience ... Like cireolle said earlier... Kingdoms have been crushed into dust because of forum shouting.

I played shadowbane though, actively participated on the forums in the early years of the game... I know exactly what forums bring to the table... and while we often have a sense of nostalgia for the flamewars, and the vindication when you beat someone in game after going at it with them on the forums... none of that is truly necessary to actually playing the game... hell some hardliners might even believe that none of the politics should be decided out of game, as it takes away the kind of experiences you might have negotiating such things in game. 

 

All the big wars I was a part of in SB are a chicken or egg argument... did the forums start it, did some in game transgression start it...

 

There's nothing preventing you from creating alliances and enemies in game... you don't need a forum to do that, and even if it did give some sorta inherent benefit... it certainly doesn't have to be an official forum. 

 

Edit:  To be honest I think this is just another one of those "this is how we used to do it" type things where people have a hard time adjusting to the more modern standards of behavior and playing games.

 

I also think it's a bit silly in reality because once the game opens up to large numbers in testing and eventual release... the people who miss the ways of old are going to be vastly outnumbered by the new age gamers that may never have even heard of games like shadowbane or UO or daoc or ac or eq. 

 

For all we know twitter might be where the best guilds do their politicing. 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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While I agree that all this is still in the realm of "we just don't know" I think that's what everyone was upset about. As the pioneers to the game and the forum they had the chance to shape and mold what the forumbane became. If you look back over the months it had already started to become self policing in that bad ideas were shouted down.


"He's like Batman except without the moral compass" ~Juror during first innocent verdict 

 

Ghost's of War, PvP gaming community founded 2002

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While I agree that all this is still in the realm of "we just don't know" I think that's what everyone was upset about. As the pioneers to the game and the forum they had the chance to shape and mold what the forumbane became. If you look back over the months it had already started to become self policing in that bad ideas were shouted down.

Perhaps a reasonable solution would be for them to wait until they've really got the framework of the game down usually in something like beta, and then they can start seeing who the best players are and those players can give them feedback on whether a political forum would be helpful and necessary. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I couldn't care less for forumfall thriving or not. Spent my money on the game concept, not on forumites. If it were me to decide I would close down the forums completely and reduce everyone to mere consumers of a bi-weekly newsletter until ACE could come around with a playablw alpha. Then I'd allow only those with access to the tests to participate in a small set of forums posting-wise (read-only for the public). Would have kept it that way until half a year from target release date and THEN I would have opened the forums for everyone until release - whereas I'd have closed it for posting for any non-backer/preorder account (read-only for them again).

 

Crowfall is crowdFUNDED. Not crowdSOURCED.

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Well, the guild copied another guild's exact outline structure wise.

The guild essentially copy pasted the other guilds website.

The guild appears to have another entities emblem, which is actually a copyright infringement.

And to top it off, it has a goofy name.

SO what happened? People called him on it, said it was stupid.

 

No, I didn't copy anything and like I said I used Scree's guild website as an inspiration. This was meant as a compliment. I build the site myself with Webflow, while Scree used an Wordpress template. Not that there is something wrong with that. But my site does look more different from that template than his does. So who's copying something now?

What other sites emblem? The argument was you thought it looks like the Curse logo. Using a flame (that does look totally different btw.) does not not make it a copy. No copyright infringement here.

That you don't like the name, that is fine. I don't care if you like it or not.

 

So, what happened? You accused me of copying someone else's work, while this is not even true. To make things worse, you now do it all over again!

 

Why? From life experience we know that "copy cat" brands guilds dont succeed in MMO life. But it's not seen as constructive criticism though it APPEARS his guild is doomed to fail, he just gets butt hurt and makes an uneducated reply.

(mind you this is coming from an unbiased third party)

 

Why should I let you be the driving force of the game I seek? Why should your voice matter above the rest?

Now we already failed? We didn't even start yet. The game is not even playable and because of that have not opened recruitment yet. The thread was meant to plant the flag so to speak. You are right, not the best welcome for a new guild in the community, you can say it was pretty hostile. That was exactly my point. The behavior shown could easily chase people away. And yes, I was a bit butt hurt in the beginning, I worked hard on that site (believe it or not). But I got over it.

 

I don't pretend to be the driving force of the game. Where do you get this stuff? My voice is just one of many. And yes, your reply has nothing to do with the topic at hand, another example how some people constantly derail threads with (personal) attacks and off-topic replies. I'm done discussing, made my points, not use to repeat them over and over again. Good luck with your crusade.


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No, I didn't copy anything and like I said I used Scree's guild website as an inspiration. This was meant as a compliment. I build the site myself with Webflow, while Scree used an Wordpress template. Not that there is something wrong with that. But my site does look more different from that template than his does. So who's copying something now?

What other sites emblem? The argument was you thought it looks like the Curse logo. Using a flame (that does look totally different btw.) does not not make it a copy. No copyright infringement here.

That you don't like the name, that is fine. I don't care if you like it or not.

 

So, what happened? You accused me of copying someone else's work, while this is not even true. To make things worse, you now do it all over again!

 

Now we already failed? We didn't even start yet. The game is not even playable and because of that have not opened recruitment yet. The thread was meant to plant the flag so to speak. You are right, not the best welcome for a new guild in the community, you can say it was pretty hostile. That was exactly my point. The behavior shown could easily chase people away. And yes, I was a bit butt hurt in the beginning, I worked hard on that site (believe it or not). But I got over it.

 

I don't pretend to be the driving force of the game. Where do you get this stuff? My voice is just one of many. And yes, your reply has nothing to do with the topic at hand, another example how some people constantly derail threads with (personal) attacks and off-topic replies. I'm done discussing, made my points, not use to repeat them over and over again. Good luck with your crusade.

 

 

Wooh there pegasus, calm down. Though what I said was true I don't mean to attack you, I used you as an example.

 

Next time read a little before you try to comment ok?

 

Now back to the topic at hand. Originally, ACE said that he didnt want to make this like ShadowBanes forums or even Pirate101 forums but a place where we could co-mingle and embrace with one common goal, overall success of the game. Put what is seen time and time again are the active "hardcore" or "abrasive" being constantly rebuked & shunned for these forums and in turn taking away our voice.

 

I Angier and wish we would in fact shut these forums down until at least alpha tests & just give use updates. It would put us, the players, on even ground for once. It's better than constantly being denied the chance to make a difference simply because of whom you innately are as an individual.


You're hilarious dude, you deserve awards for your degree of wit and intelligence, you truly do.

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wow, I am late to this party 0o   *bow's down in shame*

 

I find it interesting that in a game with 15k backers, theres only about 20-30 people active in the forum.

I've seen more active guildforums than this, which is why I think ACE might have gone the wrong route when it comes to growing its community.

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wow, I am late to this party 0o   *bow's down in shame*

 

I find it interesting that in a game with 15k backers, theres only about 20-30 people active in the forum.

I've seen more active guildforums than this, which is why I think ACE might have gone the wrong route when it comes to growing its community.

It's because there's really nothing to talk about for most people. The game essentially doesn't even exist yet. It's like this with the majority of games where people are let in on early game development.


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The core of what I want to get out of this discussion is an answer to this question; Have the changes to the forum been done to foster a thriving community, or was it done to become more appealing to major investors?

 

 

My answer is: Both.

 

I would love to see an MMO community where the trash talk stays in the game and the forums are used to commend your fellow players.  Respect.  Everyone can see how big of an internet tough guy you are by the gear you wear and the skills you show in the game.

 

It's really not any different than playing a game of basketball.  Play hard on the court, run over the other guy, but when the game's over shake hands and go have a beer and some wings.

 

A friendly, respectful community would help to attract more players.  More players means more people to fight in-game.  People will read the stories of your massive achievements and word-of-mouth will let people know how amazingly awesome it is to PvP in the game.

 

A bunch of mean (political) words on the forums just don't hold a lot of weight.

 

Use the forums as a tool to garner interest in the game and attract people.  Use the game to show how political you are.


 

Sorry you turned into a two-bit carebear whose feelings get hurt over forum banter.

 

 

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Have the changes to the forum been done to foster a thriving community, or was it done to become more appealing to major investors?

 

If anything, the reduction in activity would turn off investors. If I'm investing money into a game, the more rabid the fanbase the better. 

 

The reason there is less activity is mostly because KS is over and a lot of people are just waiting for testing to start. ACE keeps giving us new information, but it's not to the level that we had leading up to and during the KS.

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I have a unique perspective on this topic as a former SB Moderator.

 

There are some distinct differences in these forums currently and how people "remember" the SB forums.  I was going to wayback the SB forums CoC to show how its actually much more specific and stricter.  We banned people all the time, we had multiple posters on IP bans across a number of accounts and IP ranges.  We had to deal with 3am Sunday porn blasts, DDoS attacks, and all sorts of things.  It was awful.

 

This forum has some very basic admin tools that didn't exist in 2003-2009.  I wish we had it back then.  We can issue and automatically track warning points, see posting history of users,  track name changes, have users REPORT posts, things we couldn't do on the SB forums. These tools aren't making the moderators monsters (at least not since ... nevermind) they are holding posters accountable.  Personal attacks weren't allowed on the SB forums, people just got away with more craposts because of the poor tools, limited staff, and lack of accountability since forum accounts weren't linked to game accounts.

 

ACE doesn't want these forums to be like that.  I don't want these forums to be like that.  YOU don't want these forums to be like that.

 

What was great about the SB community was the level of detail in player created guides, the amazing discussions on theory crafting new builds and spec groups, how to optimize stats for every class/disc, and the politics.  The community at its heart was very close and helpful.  We also absolutely loved the political "game" on the forums.  Nations rose and fell based off of words we could type and the opinions we could foster of how people played the game.  You could attack their defensive strategies, their WoO choices to avoid fights, their love for pixels over PvP.

 

None of these things currently exist on the CF forums and it isn't because of a "moderation strategy" from ACE.  Its because we don't have a game to play.  We don't have alliances to argue, bane strategies to make fun of, WoOs to complain about.  We don't have anything to politic.  We only have people and ideas to "attack" and most posters aren't savvy enough to focus on the ideas and get in trouble for attacking people.

 

I volunteered to be a mod to help recreate the depth of the SB political forums.  This is what I want because it will be extremely important for the success of the game.  Mod bias 100% exists, but what people aren't considering is it exists in your favor.  I don't want people to be banned, I don't want to lock or close threads, I don't want to give warning points.  I don't want "Professional" paid moderators for a game like this because they won't understand context or intent and don't understand the community.  The unfortunate thing is the constant *rabble rabble* against the mods has pushed ACE to go in the direction of paid moderators when the game launches.

 

You are shooting yourselves in the foot.  YOU are actively making the forum situation worse.  YOU are going to force ACE into making decisions that are pushing the direction away from the goal we want: an engaged and political community in a bad ass PvP game.  We warned, closed threads, deleted posts, and IP banned people on the SB forums much more frequently then these forums.  The difference there is you could create a new account and be posting again in minutes.  These forums hold your accountable.  This isn't a negative thing.

 

The opinion that ACE wants to keep these forums clean for $$$ is laughable. They want to keep them useful.  Todd and Gordon don't log in the Suggestion Box thinking "oh poorly made socks, what kind of game are we making... oh look unicorn mounts! BINGO!"  They and their team are using it as a sounding board to get feedback on their decisions.  We have the opportunity to help guide and shape their decisions, but the design and direction of the game has been very clearly communicated.

 

tl;dr

 

Lighten up Francis.


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"Agelmar is King of the Hypocrites and Ruler of the Kingdom of Hypocrytia"

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"Neglecting" don't be ridiculous, they are giving us weekly updates (often multiple times a week), they make videos, they respond to some threads etc etc.

Not sure why we keep having to see these same threads every other day. its always the same, "waah they changed to forums sections, waah they deleted my poorly made sockspost, its no longer a PvP game!!" How they decide to organize the forums to better get feedback has nothing to do with the type of game being made. The game is still the same, so unless you can provide proof that the actual GAME has changed at all no point in continuing to spam the forums with off topic posts about moderation and how they organize their forums.

 

Lol at these and every single person that failed to read the OP, and still want to tack on their 0.02$. You're about as 'toxic' as you claim we are. How about you stick to the topic presented. I know it's a long OP to read through, but you can do it. I believe in you.

 

 

If the mods feel like this topic is going the wrong route, maybe it's time to clean up the banter, instead of letting it fall into the same hole of turning into "Toxic Posters vs ACE Forum Warrios XIV"

Edited by primal

☆ We are in a positive posting drought, so just post. Be the change you want the forums to be. Go wild. Just follow your positive posting star. ☆
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Ok, I've not read all the responses here, but I've liked reading some of the differing opinions.

 

I agree that getting into political prejudices 2+ years from game release is a little unrealistic. I also agree that forum activity was always expected to go into a huge decline while waiting for Alpha, maybe even closer to Beta before we actually start to see the forum start to jump again.

 

There is one thing about me that very few of you know. I was an active advocate from day 1 of the CF forum to see that this forum was made more palatable. That very first SB v Carebears thread (now deleted) was a pretty wild ride even for me. Weeks later we were still learning to coexist. Then, we all started to blend more as the ACE info started to flow. KS heralded the real hype train. 

 

There is one thing though that does bother me now ... it's the ever increasing tightening of the forum and it's community. I like to see a forum being used for open discussion sure, and I'm not adverse to seeing some humor either. In fact, in a game that has ffa PvP sometimes a sense of humor is most certainly required and indeed is refreshing, particularly if you want to relax from the game itself and just read the forum.

 

Finding mutually acceptable ground will never be easy. Someone will always be offended even for the slightest remark. It just happens and nothing will ever stop someone, somewhere, somehow having hurt feelings.

 

However, it has been my experience that the PvP genre of games do need to be more relaxed than your usual mmo's, not only for in-game chat but also for the forum.

In actual fact, I find the PvP forums are entitled to have a very lively, buoyant character because if they don't ... they lose all the flavor.

 

I've been out of the PvP genre of games for 4+ years now and I certainly hope that the PvP community has not become like so many of the PvE forums I've been looking at. Too many people taking themselves far far too seriously, in a somewhat tame environment.

 

ACE needs to bear in mind that this game and it's community voice/forum will have no personality if it tries to cater for everyone. Particularly when it was stated that the game may not be for everyone.

 

I understand the need for investors for ongoing funding, but I have faith that Todd and GW will convince investors the same as they did with us for the KS. The forum will not convince investors one way or the other.

 

I'm not here to take sides with anyone in regard to forum moderation. I just wanted to share my experience and pov.


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I am going to compare us to CU because I think it's fairly obvious. CU had less new information for almost 2 years. CU had very little of the actual game to show publicly for almost 2 years. CU has had a very heavily moderated forum for more than 2 years, any kind of forumfall gets shut down real fast. CU forum is not open to the public. The CU community does not explode with drama because things are going slow. CU has not had open streaming of its testing phases. Despite all this, CU has had no where near Star Citizen funding, no one has obviously, but its funding has been steady getting them many stretch goals. There are many more things I could add to this comparison that because of the nda I simply cannot say.

 

Why the difference? Is it even fair to compare with less than 3 months passing since our kickstarter ended? Especially when CF will be having over a year plus of public hype generated in the same time frame from streaming the actual game that CU never had. The actual testing of CU didn't begin till 9 months after the kickstarter ended, our streaming will have started by then. People really need to think on a much longer time scale with these crowdfunding games

 

There is one thing CU has done right that I would like to see us adopt and I have been suggesting this since our kickstarter was going. They stream what they do. They stream their offices, they stream themselves working, they do public Q&As, they live stream their updates. You get to know them, they get to know "you". You feel more involved as a community. It feels more of a personal investment not in money but in emotion.

 

The idea that our crowdfunding is slowing or is somehow in jeopardy because of moderation on this forum is just very difficult to take seriously. Please forgive me.

Edited by oberon

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