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Roxfall

Reversible choices, or 'respecs'

  

71 members have voted

  1. 1. Should there be irreversible choices when creating or advancing your character?

    • No, never. Go reroll an alt, you wimp.
      31
    • Only at character creation.
      8
    • Only during character advancement.
      16
    • Respec everything at any time.
      6
    • I don't know what we're yelling about!
      2
    • Agree with you, pay something to respec when you die.
      8


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For your consideration, this problem came up in a recent game, Shadowrun Chronicles.

 

I love that game! This is its only weakness.

 

During character creation, and during advancement, you make some irreversible choices (race, background, skill tree path), and you have to lock them in before you try them. This is an awkward situation because on one hand, hey, once an orc, always an orc, you can't suddenly "evolve" into a dwarf, that'd be silly. On the other hand, problematic design forces you to make a decision before you have all the information you need to make it. 

 

Here's two squirming bags. One is a cat, the other is a hedgehog. Which one do you want? I dunno, let's try a cat. Oh, the cat is useless and terrible for my build because I get crit bonuses from spiky things. Crap.

 

So in Shadowrun Chronicles you have two choices when you make an irreversible choice: wait for a patch when they change things enough to grant everyone a respec, or delete the character and start over. If you have an empty slot, you could also roll an alt. That's three choices.

 

Still, not an ideal situation because in order to make intelligent choices, one needs to try them all. There doesn't have to be the one "right" choice, also known as flavor of the month, in before the nerfs, etc. But there need to be choices that cater to different builds or playstyles.

 

With me so far? You're still reading this wall of text? Awesome!

 

I have a suggestion. Could we maybe get an optional all-inclusive respec on death, with payment of some kind? Not necessarily microtransactions, but in-game currency? That way we don't lock anyone in a build they hate for life, but also make the choices you make have a non-zero weight.


Greatswords for Frostweavers 2015! For great justice! And swords.

P.S. I like swords.

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I went with "you wimp."

 

I played a horribly gimped character in Asheron's Call for many months before I sucked it up and rerolled.  And that game had a very slow grind.  It was uphill both ways, in snow, if you will.

 

If want everyone else to suffer as I did.  Builds character.


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During character creation, and during advancement, you make some irreversible choices (race, background, skill tree path), and you have to lock them in before you try them. This is an awkward situation because on one hand, hey, once an orc, always an orc, you can't suddenly "evolve" into a dwarf, that'd be silly.

Really, why not, though? You can suddenly go from being an unarmed master to a tactical sniper specialist, but you can't change race?

 

On the other hand, problematic design forces you to make a decision before you have all the information you need to make it.

This is very true, though. But, honestly, it just means that the game should give you enough info to make the decision beforehand. Like, ideally, it just shows you a little film snippet/preview of the ability being used, or the difference between not-having that ability, and having it (if it's some kind of passive "all your attacks within melee range do this now"). Then, the only reason to justify reversible decisions would simply be "I just change my mind because I do, and I want to never have to stick with anything ever, in case I just happen to change my mind."

 

Not to say that I don't think respec fits into ANY game. It fits a game like Borderlands or Diablo. But, those games are basically all about build exploration and sheer gameplay (fighting, smiting, looting, leveling up, etc.). Games that aren't as focused solely on the state of your character's progression and build just don't really benefit as much from things like respeccing.

 

I think Crowfall has a pretty good compromise. There are certain things you can't change, but you can change your disciplines out pretty much whenever you want. That, and if I'm not mistaken, you'll have like a total skillpoint cap, essentially, so that if you have 60 skills at your disposal with any given build, you can only max 30 of them (for example), or only get to 75% in 45 of them, etc. So, I would think that you could choose to sacrifice your skill progress in one skill to free up skill points to start training in another skill if you want. You couldn't choose to make available another skill magically (except via disciplines), but you could still "try out" options that were not a part of your build at first.


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You choose your class (which locks in your race) and you also get to choose options for your character that boost one thing, and can choose options that give you negatives so you can give more positives somewhere else...for sake of this let us call these innate talents. You only get to choose these at character creations, you can revise them when you move from the base class to the prestige class, after locking in your prestige you are locked in. You cannot change your class and cannot alter the innate talents of your character ever again.

 

This is part of gameplay design.

 

Lephys explained our skills pretty damn well going from what they have mentioned.


"Lawful Good does not always mean Lawful Nice."

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I think some choices should be permanent.  

maybe a respect potion can drop off of certain mobs like rune drops. make it a commodity ppl have to fight over n sell  ;)


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So in Shadowrun Chronicles you have two choices when you make an irreversible choice: wait for a patch when they change things enough to grant everyone a respec, or delete the character and start over. If you have an empty slot, you could also roll an alt. That's three choices.

 

Note the bolded part.

 

You always have a choice.  Buying respecs dives too close to the pay-for-advantage side of the pool, imo.


 

Er, what's "edging"?

 

 

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Another vote for reroll you wimp.

 

If you don't like the character you've built, make a new one. If you've been playing the character for months before you decided you wanted a change, then obviously he's not so bad that you deserve a free highly trained character of a different class for your suffering. And if you haven't been playing him for months, then you're not losing much by rerolling. So either way, start a new character and be happy.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

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The only thing I would consider being "respeccable" is the promotion/prestige class choice. But, even then, as long as you get lots of info up-front, there's no problem. It's when you get super vague info that it's a problem.

 

"Executioner -- Specializes in close-quarters melee attacks that do really cool bleedy stuff!"

 

"Ooooh, I'll try that guy!" *finds out it's not nearly as shnazzy as it sounded to you*

 

"Well CRAP!"

 

If it tells you all the stat difference, and perhaps shows you previews of the abilities you gain, etc., then you should be able to pick the one you want and stick with that. It's a bit more minor, but, as with class choice, promotions should have meaningful specialty roles they bring to the table, and allowing the ability to just switch to a different one when you feel like negates the demand for people who focused on that one promotion to begin with.


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I think Crowfall has a pretty good compromise. There are certain things you can't change, but you can change your disciplines out pretty much whenever you want. That, and if I'm not mistaken, you'll have like a total skillpoint cap, essentially, so that if you have 60 skills at your disposal with any given build, you can only max 30 of them (for example), or only get to 75% in 45 of them, etc. So, I would think that you could choose to sacrifice your skill progress in one skill to free up skill points to start training in another skill if you want. You couldn't choose to make available another skill magically (except via disciplines), but you could still "try out" options that were not a part of your build at first.

I don't see that anywhere. Advantages and disadvantages have a cap and they say each skill has a max level based in advantages and disadvantages, disciplines, and promotion. Did they say something about that in a video?

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Wasn't an option I liked or how the game will likely be. In the FAQ they mention some things might be able to respec but some choices will be permanent.

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The devs have never said anything that even hinted at a total skill cap other than the sum of the individual skill caps.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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IMO, Crowfall should stick to Risk vs. Reward and Hard Choices.  You should only be able to change your character during creation.  Any respec after creation should only be with Disciplines.  

 

FotM chasers are going to have the biggest problem with no respec options.  Let them cry.

 

Characters should be built toward fulfilling a particular role (e.g. crafting, melee DPS, front-line tank, support, scout, etc...) and any advancement made, should be toward that role.  Even a character biography that players can type up should be available for other players to read.

 

There is no leveling and the passive-skill training should be minor advancements that require quite a bit of time before achieving any significant reward for passive specialization.  So, replacing a fairly new character (within the first few months) wouldn't have a significant loss, like replacing a 6+ month character.

 

No passive-skill training limits.  If I choose to have 1 character ability passively training for 2 years, that character should be highly specialized in that particular ability.  They'll naturally be weaker in other non-trained abilities.  Players with older characters should have a slight edge vs. newer created characters in a particular ability. 

 

No character slot limits (even if players have to purchase additional slots from the store).

 

To prevent abuse, restrict the # of characters per account that can be in active CWs.  For example, if I had 12 characters, I could only have 2 characters in separate CWs at any given time.  So, I'd need to select a specific character out of my 12 to enter a CW and that's the role I'm playing in there.

 

tl;dr: Remove needless restrictions and allow players to have a character sandbox with hard and focused roles.


> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

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tl;dr: Remove needless restrictions and allow players to have a character sandbox with hard and focused roles.

That ending to your post is hilarious. You're spending your first half of your post talking about how there needs to be strict restrictions and then you end your post with the exact opposite.


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I mean character creation is really just a no-brainer, it's a place to choose what to put in and take out and fiddle around so..

 

I went with no respec instead because in a campaign, choices matter and I would rather not deal with a metagame where people will try to adjust to their own favor.

Like trying to bend the environment to their whim easy without consequences and somewhat exploit their way through.

 

It should be the other way around, people choose their own strategy and tactics and attack when its the right time or withdraw. With your own particular build, you basically create a unique situation and footprint for yourself and no one can actually tell you what to do or do it this way, because it'll always be your way of doing things due to your inherent stats and they'd be idiots to think otherwise.

 

You cannot possibly expect to be able to do everything at once just because you feel like it. That's what leads to boredom. Having your own niche build that you stick with, you will tend to have to come up with your own creative solution in every situation possible, some of which you will have to choose to retreat from. It shapes up to overall tactics otherwise you have people running around respeccing then just coming at anyone at any direction.

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I'd be fine with a free respec once you gain your promotion class, so you can make a more informed decision once you know what you're doing, but not after that. I want my choices to matter, being able to respec devalues those choices.

 

The main danger I see of respecing in CF is cookie cutter flavor of the month builds, which is the fate that befell guild wars 1 once they allowed people to respec freely.

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I'd be fine with a free respec once you gain your promotion class, so you can make a more informed decision once you know what you're doing, but not after that. I want my choices to matter, being able to respec devalues those choices.

 

The main danger I see of respecing in CF is cookie cutter flavor of the month builds, which is the fate that befell guild wars 1 once they allowed people to respec freely.

But you unlock your promotion class by getting to a certain skill level.

 

It'd be like saying, you need to raise your sword skill to 100 to unlock the samurai promotion class which allows you to further raise your sword skill to 125.  But wait...you get to respec, so instead of putting your 100 skill points back; half of them go into bows and the other half into daggers?

 

It just doesn't make sense.


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That ending to your post is hilarious. You're spending your first half of your post talking about how there needs to be strict restrictions and then you end your post with the exact opposite.

 

lol, true.  Just a matter of perspective I suppose, which is why I stated "needless restrictions"... referring to limit caps.  I still advocate that you should live with your character advancement choices.  Do diligent research and choose wisely.  If not, kill your character and start over.  It's not like you have a level grind from 1 to 80 before you can participate.


> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

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