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Jah

Misgivings about Eternal Kigdoms

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i can honestly sympathize with the OP on this. my first reaction was exactly the same. why create an area that distracts from the whole point of the game? the most in your face part about it all is how important is that everyone understand that EKs have NO affect on the campaigns. so... like... wtf?

 

i did some more research and realized, right or wrong, the devs want to provide more than a simple moba. since the campaign worlds will die, go away, never to return, the eternal kingdoms provide context for the characters' progression, adding an mmo aspect to the moba style play. but more importantly, imo, provide an environment for politics within the community to play out beyond the game board. in this respect, they (EKs) become an essential aspect of the health of the game, budding a robust community. 

 

to illustrate, your alliances, rivalries, and feuds now spill out of the game board where simple helping/killing each other is the entire experience of the game. in the EKs your connections are tested, proved, built, ruined, etc etc. we play these games, those of us who are competitive, to dominate. your dominance is just a name on an impersonal leaderboard with just the campaigns, but with EKs your dominance impacts the community, drawing some together, others apart, etc. 

Edited by muhl

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I feel people are failing to comprehend just how long a month-long campaign really is, much less a year-long campaign.

 

Any sense of timescale for a gaming cycle you're bringing into this topic from other games is totally inappropriate.


I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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I'm inclined to think like Muhl on this one. The EK is one, small bastion of permenance in a constantly changing world. From what I've seen, only preperatory gameplay will happen there so I don't see how this would drive people away from the campaigns. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in order to get the resources for EK projects, doesn't one need to secure those resources in the non-permanent world?

 

I can understand why, thematically, you'd want to exclude safe zones altogether. But if I've learned anything from my voyages into game design, a game that bent towards hardcore play will not be able to attract nor retain a large enough audience to support it. Even (I keep bringing this game up :mellow: ) Dark Souls has safe zones, and the whole tagline of that game is about being hardcore.

In any case, I really don't think these EK's are going to hurt the dramatic tension of the game at all, or whatever this Play to Crush thing is.

 

EDIT: I do think, however, that this is an important thread to have, and I'm glad this discussion exists. All of these design choices should be questioned.

Edited by Alford

I will be the best Forgemaster

I will make battle spades

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I feel people are failing to comprehend just how long a month-long campaign really is, much less a year-long campaign.

 

Any sense of timescale for a gaming cycle you're bringing into this topic from other games is totally inappropriate.

That does seem to be an element of reference missing from much of this discussion. Glad you pointed that out. I read some people comparing this setup to MOBA matches. As an avid League player, I would love if it mimicked League's ability to retain my attention (Several weeks of my life in total game time have been lovingly spent in that game... as well as a few hundred dollars... no regrets). However​, the reason this game caught my attention is because these campaigns are days long affairs that effect the next days long affairs. Now it's important that nothing gives anyone too large of an upperhand at the start of a War, but it would be a shame to have nothing that signified just how involved you've been as a player in the many battles of (the game's) History.

 

Would not want a trophy signifying that you were involved in the first year long campaign? I see these EK's as a way of setting your player story in stone. I think they should be viewed as a way to chronicle your conquests, alliances, and moments of triumph.

 

Even if it's in the form of some dingy stone building in the middle of the ether.

Edited by Alford

I will be the best Forgemaster

I will make battle spades

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I agree with a few points that are made here. If the devs wanted to, they could make a game completely out of the dying worlds, no EK's but the EK's provide a lot of things that I think people are missing. The campaigns are going to die, never to come back. Where will trade happen? Where will people meet, get together and politic? You can't simply ask people to support a game that is driven by a player based economy and ask them to continuously reset and establish themselves. It only makes sense from an economic standpoint to have some place of permanence where trade can be done, rest can be found, and time away from PvP can be had. Personally, I think the Eternal Kingdom's will play an important role in the game, but a not a necessary one. There are those with no ambitions to build in their kingdom or in that of another's which is fine. Some only want to PvP in the dregs, and everyone else is a carebear. Let them think that, but I think that this game has much more to offer than just the PvP. I like to think that the political and economic game are going to play a huge role in the outcome and results of the dying worlds, and the EK's are where those alliances and rivalries can/will be formed.

 

Also, +100 internet points if the spelling can be fixed in the title. xD

Edited by Zim

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"Sharp alone, deadly together."

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I feel people are failing to comprehend just how long a month-long campaign really is, much less a year-long campaign.

 

Any sense of timescale for a gaming cycle you're bringing into this topic from other games is totally inappropriate.

 

ESO had a lot of people bail on it early, imo, largely due to the fact that they only offered 3 month campaigns for the first 7 months of the game.


   Elder Scrolls Online - Templar/Nightblade Mains      Guild Wars 2 - Necromancer/Thief Mains    http://www.twitch.tv/sommazzatore

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ESO had a lot of people bail on it early, imo, largely due to the fact that they only offered 3 month campaigns for the first 7 months of the game.

I'd agree. The thing about ESO is that the time of the campaigns are really a non issue at this point. There is no real consequence either way for winning or losing. I find myself when I lead groups in Cyrodiil looking at it as a "session" in time, something that resets when I come back the next day. There's no real concern for winning or losing. In Crowfall however, it would seem that actions on a day to day basis build towards an imminent end, making choices matter, and the consequences are felt when you lose. ESO would have been perfectly fine had they brought more consequence in to the campaigns, but I honestly don't know how they could with their PvP structure.

 

Don't get me wrong I love (hate) the game and play it, but they definitely had/have some room for improvement and growth.


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"Sharp alone, deadly together."

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While I get the point (somewhere to build something permanent), I do not especially like the idea of escaping all conflict in your happy-happy-fun-plot.  My worry is that you'll end up with people feeling confined or less willing to explore the actual campaign worlds, which could be bad since other players are, essentially, the content of the game.   Won't really know until we actually see the implementation, though.   The pros probably outweigh the cons.  

 

Thematically is makes a level of sense, if all of the Gods want to be king, then we are their Lords/Knights/etc... and have assets befitting the role.

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While I get the point (somewhere to build something permanent), I do not especially like the idea of escaping all conflict in your happy-happy-fun-plot.  My worry is that you'll end up with people feeling confined or less willing to explore the actual campaign worlds, which could be bad since other players are, essentially, the content of the game.   Won't really know until we actually see the implementation, though.   The pros probably outweigh the cons.  

 

Thematically is makes a level of sense, if all of the Gods want to be king, then we are their Lords/Knights/etc... and have assets befitting the role.

 

 

Just my perspective but I think their first pass clearly tries to address that and balance it.  Almost all the hardcore games I know still have a safe zone. This is because high level players ganking noobs is not a great design mechanic just about everyone agrees.

 

But camping the safe zone forever is also not a good mechanic either.

 

So putting the resources out in the CW and keeping the EK sterile seems to address that.  At least some people need to go out and get the resources.  The more people who go the better chance of success.  Then we can always go to the EK to craft or even relax.  But as all equipment degrades and we have looting there should in theory always be a reason for people to go back out into the CW.

 

Obviously this all needs to be balanced but having a CW world for hardcore PvPers and having an EK for crafters seems to me to be a good idea to get a larger population of players with greater diversity and honestly the bigger and more diverse player base we have the healthy the game will be.

 

Am I off here?


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Just my perspective but I think their first pass clearly tries to address that and balance it.  Almost all the hardcore games I know still have a safe zone. This is because high level players ganking noobs is not a great design mechanic just about everyone agrees.

 

But camping the safe zone forever is also not a good mechanic either.

 

So putting the resources out in the CW and keeping the EK sterile seems to address that.  At least some people need to go out and get the resources.  The more people who go the better chance of success.  Then we can always go to the EK to craft or even relax.  But as all equipment degrades and we have looting there should in theory always be a reason for people to go back out into the CW.

 

Obviously this all needs to be balanced but having a CW world for hardcore PvPers and having an EK for crafters seems to me to be a good idea to get a larger population of players with greater diversity and honestly the bigger and more diverse player base we have the healthy the game will be.

 

Am I off here?

No, I don't think you're off.  Hopefully the strategy works.  I have experienced situations in various games where people just sit in safe zones all day and never actually *do* anything, though.  I just hope that doesn't become a issue - because keeping the population up in less... lenient games can be hard.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there 3 active (passive) buffs that an avatar can carry into the CW's that are derived from relics or artifacts housed within their EK.  And if you have a ton of buffs to choose from, you can be strategic about what 3 buffs work best for a particular avatar and a particular CW ruleset.  I have not seen much discussion on this mechanic that seemingly involves the EK?  

 

I absolutely love PVP, but I also love the 'vision', the lore, and the context this game has been selling us.  The EK seemingly makes sense as a necessary 'evil' in showcasing an individual's accomplishments (as a servant of the gods, and as something more permanent), as well as, a groups accomplishments, and still have some form of worth towards campaigning, the virtual economy, and social politics as well.  It might be a bit bland without EK's, in my opinion.  

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There has to be some place you can show off your loot:)  And a place to trade.  And sometimes just a place to BS and have a beer.

Agreed. I feel like it's a good idea to have some permanence in a game where the worlds die after a couple months.

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Yeah, I don't really get the angst over the EKs. Even if you have no interest in building up your EK, it's still nice to have somewhere to hang out between campaigns. The highly competitive people who want to live in the CWs and never bother with the EKs will still want the bonuses from artifacts and relics, no matter how little they affect the CWs, so they will most likely have a guild EK that they can contribute to. 

 

EKs can also be used as a testing/training ground. Maybe you have done some theorycrafting and want to test some stuff based on that. It's much safer and easier to do that in your EK rather than the CW. Or maybe your guild wants to devise tactics on how to defend and/or attack a keep. Having a keep in your EK makes that a lot easier.

 

And, lets face it, people like to show off. If your guild is winning CWs, how else are you going to show it off other than by building up your EK? Sure, there may be leader boards and for some that may be enough, but having a huge EK that everyone visits brings a different level of status.

 

Finally, taking all of that away, there's still the fact that nearly everything that will be made for the EKs will also be used in the CWs, so it's not like they are wasting development time on something that only half the people care about. They will have the same parcels, the same buildings, the same monsters. The extra stuff that the EKs will require shouldn't take much development time, as it's mostly UI stuff.

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Yeah, I don't really get the angst over the EKs. Even if you have no interest in building up your EK, it's still nice to have somewhere to hang out between campaigns. The highly competitive people who want to live in the CWs and never bother with the EKs will still want the bonuses from artifacts and relics, no matter how little they affect the CWs, so they will most likely have a guild EK that they can contribute to. 

 

EKs can also be used as a testing/training ground. Maybe you have done some theorycrafting and want to test some stuff based on that. It's much safer and easier to do that in your EK rather than the CW. Or maybe your guild wants to devise tactics on how to defend and/or attack a keep. Having a keep in your EK makes that a lot easier.

 

And, lets face it, people like to show off. If your guild is winning CWs, how else are you going to show it off other than by building up your EK? Sure, there may be leader boards and for some that may be enough, but having a huge EK that everyone visits brings a different level of status.

 

Finally, taking all of that away, there's still the fact that nearly everything that will be made for the EKs will also be used in the CWs, so it's not like they are wasting development time on something that only half the people care about. They will have the same parcels, the same buildings, the same monsters. The extra stuff that the EKs will require shouldn't take much development time, as it's mostly UI stuff.

 

Well said.


9e58b2ae2f9ac9f2904b5d4c33b609bb92d1a174


"Sharp alone, deadly together."

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Yeah, I don't really get the angst over the EKs. Even if you have no interest in building up your EK, it's still nice to have somewhere to hang out between campaigns. The highly competitive people who want to live in the CWs and never bother with the EKs will still want the bonuses from artifacts and relics, no matter how little they affect the CWs, so they will most likely have a guild EK that they can contribute to. 

 

EKs can also be used as a testing/training ground. Maybe you have done some theorycrafting and want to test some stuff based on that. It's much safer and easier to do that in your EK rather than the CW. Or maybe your guild wants to devise tactics on how to defend and/or attack a keep. Having a keep in your EK makes that a lot easier.

 

And, lets face it, people like to show off. If your guild is winning CWs, how else are you going to show it off other than by building up your EK? Sure, there may be leader boards and for some that may be enough, but having a huge EK that everyone visits brings a different level of status.

 

Finally, taking all of that away, there's still the fact that nearly everything that will be made for the EKs will also be used in the CWs, so it's not like they are wasting development time on something that only half the people care about. They will have the same parcels, the same buildings, the same monsters. The extra stuff that the EKs will require shouldn't take much development time, as it's mostly UI stuff.

 

Wish more looked at this so practically :) !!


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What role do these worlds play in the grand scheme of things, the eternal War of the Gods?
 
What are your misgivings about Eternal Kingdoms?

 

 

The short version is: EK are the main selling point for the portion of the playerbase who'd rather craft, build, customize and socialize 90% of their game time and for those who do some PvP but also like to visualize their wealth every now and then. This is also the main income source for ACE through vanity items after people have purchased the game. The remainder of the playerbase will be locked in The Dregs / Shadow 99% of their game time, where EK will only be utilized for socketing "Buffs" between campaigns. Some of these players will also have alts who'll switch between EK and short God's Reachs campaigns, if there is nothing to kill at that moment.

 

/thread

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Yeah... EKs are a place to show off and house trophies for buffs.  They will spend about 0... zero... extra development time on this and it will make a large portion of the player base very happy.

 

Why this is not a win win is beyond me...


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