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Jah

Misgivings about Eternal Kigdoms

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EKs are a needed part of what will hopefully make CF work.  My constant irritation with them is people keep trying to MAKE the EKs the game.  OMG lets have sieges there, we need PvE there, can we PvP there?  We need resource nodes in the EKs!

 

Any function or feature in the EK that removes people from the CW will negatively impact Crowfall.  To create the best parts of Shadowbane and Ultima Online and find the balance of the risk/reward and find the sweet spot that creates the emergent gameplay EVERYONE will *have* to participate in the CWs in some way.


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"Agelmar is King of the Hypocrites and Ruler of the Kingdom of Hypocrytia"

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Yes yes, we get it.

You are the top 1%, better than the people that think they are better than the people that likes the eks.

 

You're the main dog, smarter than anyone with a different opinion, knows everything there is to know about any part of gaming.

 

You are without faults, follow the right religion and everyone should shape up and get on the level.

 

 

You got a whole lot more out of his post than I did.   :lol:  Not sure I read that much into it.


 

Sorry you turned into a two-bit carebear whose feelings get hurt over forum banter.

 

 

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EKs are a needed part of what will hopefully make CF work.  My constant irritation with them is people keep trying to MAKE the EKs the game.  OMG lets have sieges there, we need PvE there, can we PvP there?  We need resource nodes in the EKs!

 

Any function or feature in the EK that removes people from the CW will negatively impact Crowfall.  To create the best parts of Shadowbane and Ultima Online and find the balance of the risk/reward and find the sweet spot that creates the emergent gameplay EVERYONE will *have* to participate in the CWs in some way.

Quoted for much truth.

 

Its either that people want to try to make EKs into something they are not intended to or just can't accept what their purpose is. Lobby, housing, market place, social hubs. That's pretty much it. EKs are also what you want to make of them, don't have interest in any of that stuff then great for you because you've still got the CWs which is the main game. You like those things then great as well because you'll have that plus the CWs which are the main game.

 

Stop over thinking it, stop trying to fit square pegs in round holes and take it or leave it for what it is.

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If you don't like this thread, then...

 

... dont hit the like button. right. B)

 

besides this, my posting had nothing to do with liking or disliking this thread. i agree with you, that topics with unresolved tension should find a way into the forum. though i personally prefer discussions more than monologues. but hey, its your thread.

 

i just answered a question you made. if you insinst on solely selling the dark side of the cookie... maybe dont ask questions next time.

 

 

 

My constant irritation with them is people keep trying to MAKE the EKs the game.  OMG lets have sieges there, we need PvE there, can we PvP there?  We need resource nodes in the EKs!

 

I dont see this.

 

ACE is doing a great job in showing us what they already got. As they, as every game, have to make the biggest early progress in creating the enviroment-tools and as their enviroment tools are very near to those we well get for the EK's, it is completely OK, that we will get many information about this very early. At least more than about other things at this developement state.

 

You cant blame players to give ideas about what they see. We are bound to do that through the whole development process. And because of above reasons we actually know the most about EK's. (Well, you can. But it wont do any good).

 

Besides, i generally dont think, that reducing (or holding back) possibilities ist the best way. Even if some people might be afraid that "if" this would be it "might" not be "100%"  the game i think would be the best. And surprisingly often this can be read between the lines. But most times fear is a bad advisor.

 

If expanding possibilities wont hinder the development process, there should be no reason to take a nearer look at them. And as we dont know what will, we should go on with giving ideas and STOP stopping others to speak them out or discuss them.

At least we should understand that there will allways be more ideas about those things we actually see. And that this doesnt mean, that people want to change the game vision.

 

It is ACE's vision. It's their decision. Lets just work together and give as much ideas as we can. Their is no reason to fight (yet :P ).

Edited by Dr. Kraahk

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...

 

It is ACE's vision. It's their decision. Lets just work together and give as much ideas as we can. Their is no reason to fight (yet :P ).

 

"Its ACE's vision" says it all pretty much. Reason why people might get frustrated is we keep seeing these ideas that go against that vision and people getting all defensive when that fact is pointed out. So yes they can suggest all the crazy ideas they want and it also works both ways with the rest of us being able to say that sorry you're idea just doesn't fit with the vision of the game.

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It is ACE's vision. It's their decision. Lets just work together and give as much ideas as we can. Their is no reason to fight (yet :P ).

 

There is a reason we don't have our pitchforks out right now, we are only voicing a concern.

I can only speak for myself, but my main concern with the EK right now is that ACE will find incentives to keep people in the EK by giving players bonuses and other features that will influence the CW's.

I backed the game mainly because it had an interesting PvP element in the Dying Worlds. The notion that you start all over again after 6-7 months was the driving force for me.

 

All companies want money, and with ACE looking for outside investors, they will want a return on their investments. I am afraid that ACE will focus too much on the store and the EK and tie CW as a secondary to get a quick cash grab from the players.

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they are a company, they have to earn money. best way to do this is with the eternal kingdoms. just like with the cartell packs in swtor. many people want this or that mount or clothpiece, no big balancing influence, good money source.

 

even better. because if you buy your fluffy mountain citadel, you will have to earn resources to pay the maintenance to prevent them from crumbling down. so you will have to go to the campaign world or provide goods or services for those who do.

 

but if this is your wish, then i am fine if they try to earn their money primarily in the campaign worlds.  :rolleyes:

 

but have you given a thought to the possibility, that if focussing on the EK's wont cost more money or former work in the campaign worlds, people might possibly much more tend to stay in the EK's instead of going to the CW's?

 

i understand your fears, i respect them (so far) and it is a good thing to speak them out (btw as much as speaking those ideas out). i personally just dont believe in them and so i speak this out too, if you dont mind.

 

it is completely normal (and most times wanted) that a player accompanied alpha process will lead to many, many suggestions. some of them will be repeated many times. the influence those suggestion really have is usually quite small.

 

developers (especially ours) have a pretty good idea of what they want. i havent participated in any alpha yet, where the devs havent said again and again something like:

"we just wanted thank you again for your many suggestions. be sure we read them all. we just cant reply to all of them and most are really good ideas and they might be fun. but we just dont have the money or the time or technical possibilities or they simple doesnt fit to our vision, to integrate them into our game. nevertheless, please go on with your suggestions, to help us make the best game we can."

 

they are no childs. it isnt their first rodeo. this team is very experienced, competent and determined. they will do it right. and yes, they will change things and they will try to earn money. but thats the way it is.

 

i just think it would do no harm, to evolve a community climate, where suggestions, open communication and free feedbacks are welcome and fear is no driving force. only problem would be: it would be our own job to reach this. ;)

 

tl;dr: dont worry, be happy.

Edited by Dr. Kraahk

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Good post there Dr. :)

 

Thing is ...............too many people have experienced Devs listening to the sound of coins clinging and HAVE made changes to games because they wanted to rake in the most profit possible.   Vision is great but is sometimes unsustainable without enough money rolling in.

 

Most of posting here in this thread understand the "economics"  all too well.  

 

The "don't worry, be happy" tagline would be like burying your head in the sand, js


Maybe it not about the happy ending. Maybe it's about the story.

RIP Doc Gonzo "to anyone...speak your mind...defend your position...be prepared for an Argument and enjoy the process of the discussion...that's all part of any good Forum experience"

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not really. i am well aware of this problems. i have seen and experienced them enough, too. really more than enough. ;) as surely many of us.

 

i dont say: lets forget everything and be virgin gamers again.

i dont say: lets hush up, never talk about problems and do as if we would believe every single word without thinking and questioning.

 

i do say: they are independent (yes, up to now, but at least they said this is very important to them) and on a mission. that is a good base. best i have seen for a long time.

i do say: try to give a little bit faith. question things and think yourselve, yes. but dont unleash your fears on other players who are interested in this game (btw. having additional ideas doesnt mean they dont love and want to have the vision).

 

what do you think would help more?

 

fighting for ground within the community, helping to split it, upsetting ourselves anyday, making trouble and in the end saying with it that we dont trust ACE?

or contributing in a way that will foster and in the end show a community to ACE, they just have to love and couldnt ever have the heart to dissappoint? js

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not really. i am well aware of this problems. i have seen and experienced them enough, too. really more than enough. ;) as surely many of us.

 

i dont say: lets forget everything and be virgin gamers again.

i dont say: lets hush up, never talk about problems and do as if we would believe every single word without thinking and questioning.

 

i do say: they are independent (yes, up to now, but at least they said this is very important to them) and on a mission. that is a good base. best i have seen for a long time.

i do say: try to give a little bit faith. question things and think yourselve, yes. but dont unleash your fears on other players who are interested in this game (btw. having additional ideas doesnt mean they dont love and want to have the vision).

 

what do you think would help more?

 

fighting for ground within the community, helping to split it, upsetting ourselves anyday, making trouble and in the end saying with it that we dont trust ACE?

or contributing in a way that will foster and in the end show a community to ACE, they just have to love and couldnt ever have the heart to dissappoint? js

I get what you are saying, I do.   But when has it started to be speaking your mind is "causing trouble"?   Keeping things to yourself is not productive, imo.  I believe in "community" as much as the next person.  But to say voicing your opinion even when it is  negative one "scares" people away?  I guess it would matter where you are coming from and where you are wanting to see the community go.  As it has been said many times before, a bunch of "yes men" splits the community as well,  Maybe even more so.  This is the very first thread I have seen voicing concerns about the EK yet there have been many in support of it.   THAT in itself should tell you something.  

Edited by ellie

Maybe it not about the happy ending. Maybe it's about the story.

RIP Doc Gonzo "to anyone...speak your mind...defend your position...be prepared for an Argument and enjoy the process of the discussion...that's all part of any good Forum experience"

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I just want the game that was advertised in the Kickstarter.. The one where the EK was not the main part of the game, that you could play the game without ever having to play with the EK.

 

So far they seem to uphold this vision, but a lot of us fear they will tie additional bonuses inside the EK to the CW. Right now we only have artifacts and relics, but there's nothing stopping ACE from making additional incentives for people to stay in the EK and spend more money in the fluffstore.

 

That is my own personal opinion, and its the same I have had since they started focusing a lot on EK stuff and store sales etc.

Edited by zinnie

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So far they seem to uphold this vision, but a lot of us fear they will tie additional bonuses inside the EK to the CW.

 

While I consider myself one of the more jaded gamers out there, I think the fears expressed here specifically, and more generally in the thread, are unfounded.

 

After reading and watching everything about these guys for the past 15 years, after experiencing their careers from a players perspective, and after they have basically put it all on the line to fulfill their dream, their vision, their game.....

You still think a bunch of carebear/WoW zombies on the forums are really going to detract from these guys creating a MMOPVP Masterpiece?

I mean, guys who say "the games not unbalanced, your a bad player" dont seem very worried if the wow/minecraft crowd gets what they want or not.

 

As for the cash grab, money isn't the issue, atleast until they are super successful and the greed monster raises its ugly head and hopefully that doesnt happen until atleast 3 years after release  :P

But seriously they have the funding to make the game right now.  They are only getting more money to speed up production, not because they dont have the budget to make it to release, as such, there is currently NO incentive for them to change what they have said they are going to do.

 

Think about it from a PR perspective, if they turned our PvP dream into a PvE/Fluffy mess, the entire kickstarter group would burn them in effigy on the internet for decades to come. ;)

Edited by MadLoota

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I dont really get the point of the discussion. From my point of view PvP is also just a (big) part of the game.

 

I quote the fronte page "Crowfall is a new type of online experience. We call it a Throne War Simulator, and it's a mix of a Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game (MMORPG) and a large scale strategic simulator of a fantasy world."

 

So the EKs are also a game mechanic. And as much as i´ve read about them, its pretty interesting. Having your vendors there, have land on other Kingdoms or lease parts of your own Kingdom to others. I really like the idea of this.

 

When i read your premises and your conclusio, we won´t need EK, because it should just be a PvP or with your words 'Play to Crush' but where´s the strategy there. With the EK you can build a huge economic network, that´s an own game for itself. That is what took my interest.

 

I really can imagine, that there are players who just do PvP and dont care for EK at all, but there will also be players who build up an economic system, craft and supply the goods for the PvPers. So that´s where it gets interessting for me.

 

Maybe people have to live with the fact, that it isnt just a hardcore PvP MMO but also a strategy game, as it is mentioned in the game description a hundred times.


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I dont really get the point of the discussion. From my point of view PvP is also just a (big) part of the game.

 

I quote the fronte page "Crowfall is a new type of online experience. We call it a Throne War Simulator, and it's a mix of a Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game (MMORPG) and a large scale strategic simulator of a fantasy world."

 

So the EKs are also a game mechanic. And as much as i´ve read about them, its pretty interesting. Having your vendors there, have land on other Kingdoms or lease parts of your own Kingdom to others. I really like the idea of this.

 

When i read your premises and your conclusio, we won´t need EK, because it should just be a PvP or with your words 'Play to Crush' but where´s the strategy there. With the EK you can build a huge economic network, that´s an own game for itself. That is what took my interest.

 

I really can imagine, that there are players who just do PvP and dont care for EK at all, but there will also be players who build up an economic system, craft and supply the goods for the PvPers. So that´s where it gets interessting for me.

 

Maybe people have to live with the fact, that it isnt just a hardcore PvP MMO but also a strategy game, as it is mentioned in the game description a hundred times.

 

I'm not getting your contrast between "Play to Crush" and "strategy".  Why would there be no strategy without safezone EKs?  That doesn't make any sense.  In fact, by putting some of the game inside a safezone you remove some of the strategy from the game.

 

Same with economics.  You can have a rich economic game without safezone EKs.  They are not required for players to build an economic system.

 

For me, strategy, economics, crafting, supply, et cetera-- all those things become even more compelling when they are done inside the Play to Crush sandbox, not outside it.  I'd prefer to build cities in places where I have to defend them.  Owning things has more meaning for me when there is the threat of losing those things.  Fortifications are more meaningful when they are there for defensive purposes, not simply decorations.

 

PvP isn't as limited a thing as you seem to think.  It is not the act of killing alone. It can involve many things you seem to think are separate from it.


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I'm not getting your contrast between "Play to Crush" and "strategy".  Why would there be no strategy without safezone EKs?  That doesn't make any sense.  In fact, by putting some of the game inside a safezone you remove some of the strategy from the game.

 

Same with economics.  You can have a rich economic game without safezone EKs.  They are not required for players to build an economic system.

 

For me, strategy, economics, crafting, supply, et cetera-- all those things become even more compelling when they are done inside the Play to Crush sandbox, not outside it.  I'd prefer to build cities in places where I have to defend them.  Owning things has more meaning for me when there is the threat of losing those things.  Fortifications are more meaningful when they are there for defensive purposes, not simply decorations.

 

PvP isn't as limited a thing as you seem to think.  It is not the act of killing alone. It can involve many things you seem to think are separate from it.

 

The moment i pressed "post" I recognized the meaning, its like you say, I get the point


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I want to build a beautiful pink castle. With a fantastic garden full of dingleberries and roses. Shame on you all for wanting to take that from me. I also want to shop my little bank account dry. I don't want to have to worry about the evil Zinnie (old profile pic- not the new one) killing me while i'm skipping along in my dingleberry garden.

 

I see the EK's as a way to attract a larger crowd. There are tons of people who play to for different reasons than your or I. I fully intend to do some crafting in my fluffy pink castle. With that said,I agree, if they start adding too much crap to the eternal kingdoms it will compromise the main reason I participated in the Kickstarter. I still don't understand how they are going to fit in the Eternal Kingdoms without messing with the Campaign worlds- while at the same time making them somehow meaningful.

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I still don't understand how they are going to fit in the Eternal Kingdoms without messing with the Campaign worlds- while at the same time making them somehow meaningful.

 

I also dont know how this will work, since you are not allowed to bring something to the campaings. An explanation would be, that you are crafting in EKs for cosmetic reasons (to get your shiny kingdom) whereas in the campaign, and remember their durations could be months, you have to set up some kind of economy to supply the PvP players. But that would mean, with the embargo, which transfers the items directly to the EK, that the items you win in the campaign are meaningless, because you cant bring them with you to the next campaign. Idk i guess there´s not enough information out there.

 

But i guess EKs are more like player housing instances, but not just having one generation in the house, but also your daughter, your mother and your grandmother.


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I also dont know how this will work, since you are not allowed to bring something to the campaings. An explanation would be, that you are crafting in EKs for cosmetic reasons (to get your shiny kingdom) whereas in the campaign, and remember their durations could be months, you have to set up some kind of economy to supply the PvP players. But that would mean, with the embargo, which transfers the items directly to the EK, that the items you win in the campaign are meaningless, because you cant bring them with you to the next campaign. Idk i guess there´s not enough information out there.

 

But i guess EKs are more like player housing instances, but not just having one generation in the house, but also your daughter, your mother and your grandmother.

 

 

But you can.

All CW's have certain Import rules. In some instances you can't bring anything, but in other CW's you are able to take stuff with you from the EK.  Gear, resources, materials etc.

 

The EK is nothing more than a personal housing area where you can invite friends. It does not matter much to the real game.

Edited by zinnie

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