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Jah

Misgivings about Eternal Kigdoms

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So, there are 4 bands that are PvP centric. OW PVP sandbox, and 1 band the eternal kingdoms that is persistent.  I would say then 80% sandbox.   And as everyone else says, the EK can be played alone, it is a complete game loop  but lacks the resources etc needed to be fully developed.  

 

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These player-owned and player-managed kingdoms are the only permanent (non-time limited) Worlds. They are complete, functional Worlds - but lack resource factories (such as quarries, mines and mills) and produce only common reagents. Players rule these Home Worlds as Monarchs and can grant land and titles to other players in exchange for oaths of fealty. Levy taxes, enforce trade restrictions, and set the PvP rules within your domain.

 

So, where as the CW can be played alone w.o one ever visiting the EK, in order for the EK to be fully functional  things will be needed from the CW's.  

No safe zones in 80% of the game  20% of the game a stand alone safe zone.

ThomasB, on 21 Mar 2015 - 4:55 PM, said:snapback.png

I think I've said this in both of the video interviews Gordon and I have done. We are planning for the only time you can bring equipment into a Campaign is when you join if that ruleset allows it. Using the same character in both a campaign and EK would involve a logout in the campaign and selection from login to the EK you wanted to go to. 

So, a log out of the Campaign is needed and a log in to the EK.   How is that different from logging out in any other game?  You can not be both places at once.  And at some point there may be a cut off when you can't go back to the Campaign.  


Maybe it not about the happy ending. Maybe it's about the story.

RIP Doc Gonzo "to anyone...speak your mind...defend your position...be prepared for an Argument and enjoy the process of the discussion...that's all part of any good Forum experience"

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Actually, the fact resources for maintaining EK's can be traded as I just realized thus allowing people to avoid CW's altogether. It won't matter what mechanics are implemented in EK's. Whatever portion of the game's community hides out in their EK's will do so regardless.

 

Ok lets go over this point by point. IF say there was someone who wanted to hide out in their EK all day first off so what, who are you to dictate their play experience? Secondly your point is they never have to go to the CW's because they can trade for resources... But what would they trade with? We already know that EK's give no specialty resources so what would they have that everyone else wouldnt have in their own EK? And again who cares? Some people are builders in real life and some people are in the military. Why does it surprise you that its like that with people's interests in gaming its not our place to dictate "fun" to someone else, unless you want to upgrade my Ruby to Emerald for me then you can tell me how to play.

 

Edit: So thinking more on it I guess the possibility exists for people to buy EK buildings like the forts or keep for real cash and trade it for in game resources, and to this I say, YES! ... Your saying the way he wants to play this game is to pay me what amounts to RL cash to kill people in the CW and bring them back rocks so they can make their EK pretty? Sounds good to me.

Edited by wargasmo

"He's like Batman except without the moral compass" ~Juror during first innocent verdict 

 

Ghost's of War, PvP gaming community founded 2002

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Ok lets go over this point by point. IF say there was someone who wanted to hide out in their EK all day first off so what, who are you to dictate their play experience? Secondly your point is they never have to go to the CW's because they can trade for resources... But what would they trade with? We already know that EK's give no specialty resources so what would they have that everyone else wouldnt have in their own EK? And again who cares? Some people are builders in real life and some people are in the military. Why does it surprise you that its like that with people's interests in gaming its not our place to dictate "fun" to someone else, unless you want to upgrade my Ruby to Emerald for me then you can tell me how to play.

 

Edit: So thinking more on it I guess the possibility exists for people to buy EK buildings like the forts or keep for real cash and trade it for in game resources, and to this I say, YES! ... Your saying the way he wants to play this game is to pay me what amounts to RL cash to kill people in the CW and bring them back rocks so they can make their EK pretty? Sounds good to me.

I think you've targeted me as one who is against the EK's and those who want to partake mainly in the building up of a guild Kingdom. That is not the case. I am actually in favor of it as I firmly believe having as many features in an MMO is what allows it to stay healthy. There's a reason I can only stand playing FPS games for so long, because for the most part, they only offer one feature and that is to kill your enemy. There's no farming, fishing, crafting, exploring or trading in an FPS game. I can only do so much headshot before I become bored with that style of gameplay. There are currently only 2 games that I've played that had a plethora of in-game features. The first would be Star Wars Galaxies and the second would be ArcheAge. Both of those games in my opinion offered so much variety to the players that you could literally spend hours upon hours playing and never get bored.

 

I know for a fact, my guild will have people focused mainly on crafting and building up the guild Kingdom and participating in CW's when they can. This is what my guild is best known for. Allowing our members to do whatever it is they want to do that is fun and engaging for them. The fact those members have a place to hangout and not have to constantly look over their shoulder will help maintain at least some of the PvE enthusiasts. Do I think Crowfall needs more PvE content? Well, honestly, that isn't the focus of Crowfall. If ACE added more PvE content then the CW's would become nothing more than large battlegrounds. The CW's were designed as the portion of the game where resources are gained. So what would any PvE content offer with that in mind? The best thing I could think of is maybe having achievements available for the EK's. Maybe add something like fishing that could be used as a social mechanic to help pass the time away from the wars. My guild was always good at creating non-game designed events, such as horse or boat races or getting naked and jumping from high places hopefully landing in some water.

 

I love Crowfall as it is and hope it remains focused on CW's, but an occasional bone being thrown to the EK crowd shouldn't hurt the game either.

 

EDIT: To make one further note on how to make the game somewhat more engaging for the PvE crowd. I will use another game that I loved playing for many years called Dark Age of Camelot. With that game in mind, there was a specific game design that allowed a faction to enter a specific dungeon only if they owned a majority of the keeps and towers in the frontier. So perhaps something similar could be designed where if your guild, since I highly doubt making a solo dungeon would be a good idea, would gain a portal access to a dungeon for a limited time. The difficulty of the dungeon would determine the reward perhaps. The guild could have, let's say a week long access to the dungeon. The rewards could be a buff that would carry over into the campaign worlds. However, the more I think about it, the less I like it, because I don't think mixing PvE and PvP is ever a good idea. So maybe the reward could be something else entirely that doesn't affect the CW's at all.

Edited by rhoklaw

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I don't think we are arguing about definitions. I'm pretty sure we all know the definition of what an open world PvP sandbox game is. The fact EK's are part of the Crowfall game as being an option of gameplay does not fit that definition. An open world PvP sandbox does not have any instances, nor would it have safezones, anywhere, period. I did not argue the point that CW's are an open world PvP experience, but Crowfall overall is not an open world PvP sandbox. If that is me arguing against many, than I truly feel sorry for the many.

Definitions will be argued as long as one side keeps using wrong ones as well as inaccurate descriptions of how the game will work.

 

EKs are not instances, lets get that out of the way first. In order to get to your EK you have to logout of the game and log back in. They are full fledged persistent server worlds. Can read others post above that mention that as well. Within the CWs there is no safezones to hide, no instances to load in to. Its Open World PvP. 

 

I think the real issue is that CF is going a bit out of the box with its mechanics but we are still trying to use old outdated terms and definitions to describe it. Need to take Crowfall on its own merits and I think you'll be better able to understand the game once you do that.

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I do understand what you are saying.  Everyone has something to do that they personally like the best.  However, just the very concept of giveng EVERYONE something to do, to play the way they want to play CF, seems, at least in some ways, to go against the way the game was originally portrayed.  What happened to "niche"?  What happened to "not for everyone?"  What happened to "Eagles don't flock?".  What happened to the idea of "Risk vs Reward?".

 

No one is denying the purpose of the EK's and the potential for them to make mad money for ACE.  The game has to be sustainable for longevity.  It just seems  that by their very existence and the fact they are a "complete" game loop unto themselves no matter how stunted, they are totally contrary to what the game was portrayed to be.  They and all the revenue they bring might have been accepted more easily if the game had been portrayed right from day 1 as being a game created for EVERYONE.  

 

Not saying this is bad or good, it is what it is, now.  


Maybe it not about the happy ending. Maybe it's about the story.

RIP Doc Gonzo "to anyone...speak your mind...defend your position...be prepared for an Argument and enjoy the process of the discussion...that's all part of any good Forum experience"

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Well, I don't really think gaming companies create "niche" games on purpose. They are more or less the byproduct of choices. When developers get an idea in their head and focus on it, sure, it could end up being a "niche" game. However, why would you deny your game additional features that might benefit it simply because those features don't fall directly in line with the original vision? I mean we aren't talking about game breaking or immersion breaking ideas. Anything added to the EK really wouldn't have any impact on the CW's as far as I'm concerned. As I stated earlier, that players will do whatever they want, regardless of what the game offers them. If the game doesn't offer them what they want, they simply won't play. So creating a robust system with multiple features adds something that might interest more than just PvP players. Honestly, games like SWG, DAoC and ArcheAge were probably some of the best PvP games I played. Were they pure PvP games? Nope, but I'm pretty certain they reached a point of popularity far greater than games that were focused solely on PvP. Then again, I like Crowfall the way it is and I personally don't care either way if it stays the same or if some additional PvE features are added. I just know having more players, regardless of their interests, makes a game more healthy which usually equates to a longer lifespan.

Edited by rhoklaw

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I do understand what you are saying.  Everyone has something to do that they personally like the best.  However, just the very concept of giveng EVERYONE something to do, to play the way they want to play CF, seems, at least in some ways, to go against the way the game was originally portrayed.  What happened to "niche"?  What happened to "not for everyone?"  What happened to "Eagles don't flock?".  What happened to the idea of "Risk vs Reward?".

 

No one is denying the purpose of the EK's and the potential for them to make mad money for ACE.  The game has to be sustainable for longevity.  It just seems  that by their very existence and the fact they are a "complete" game loop unto themselves no matter how stunted, they are totally contrary to what the game was portrayed to be.  They and all the revenue they bring might have been accepted more easily if the game had been portrayed right from day 1 as being a game created for EVERYONE.  

 

Not saying this is bad or good, it is what it is, now.  

I'm honestly very confused by this statement. Pretty sure I'm here just as much as you and I don't get this impression from the EK at all.  From day one its been advertised as a secondary support system to the main game of the CWs. Trophy room, lobby, guild hall, market place, social area etc. I haven't read or recalled a single bit of info that has countered that.

 

The fact that Todd clearly stated that while you may be able to only live in the EK it will be very hard to do so because you'll need to be fed resources from the CWs. I don't see how that is a complete game loop at all. Especially seeing as how the game is again still the CWs.

 

If the game was indeed being created for everyone like you claim then pretty sure the EKs would be some kind of PvE themepark land as an opposite to the PvP sandbox that the CWs are. But nope that's not happening, The vision is still the same and am honestly baffled by how one can think otherwise.

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However, why would you deny your game additional features that might benefit it simply because those features don't fall directly in line with the original vision?

 

For the same reason they aren't building a game that is also banking software: cost-benefit analysis. Their expertise is in writing games, and their vision is to make a game that is focused on PvP. Whether or not it seems to you that it wouldn't take much extra time to build PvE features in the EKs is irrelevant: it takes a non-zero amount of extra time, which does not directly promote their core value proposition. Thus, there may or may not be an interesting conversation to be had about what time is worth spending on what features after they achieve the core value proposition, but right now, while they're still chasing that, your "additional features" are out of scope, and expending time and resources on them would be terrible project management.


I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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I will say that all your crafters and builders will be bored out of their skulls waiting for the first campaigns to finish...

 

Just sitting around for a month to a year to build up the guild leaders EK sounds mighty boring. Waiting for all those resources, I would hope they enter the campaign worlds to help earn them... otherwise they might not see much of any resources to build with.

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Well, I don't really think gaming companies create "niche" games on purpose.

 

"Crowfall will never be a mass-market title. Our players aren't followers. Eagles don't flock."

 

ACE is very deliberately creating a niche game.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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And Tully March 23rd

 

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game. I'm starting to think people just don't listen to me   :("


Maybe it not about the happy ending. Maybe it's about the story.

RIP Doc Gonzo "to anyone...speak your mind...defend your position...be prepared for an Argument and enjoy the process of the discussion...that's all part of any good Forum experience"

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And Tully March 23rd

 

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game. I'm starting to think people just don't listen to me   :("

So how will progression raiding work?


nAd1VPD.png

"Agelmar is King of the Hypocrites and Ruler of the Kingdom of Hypocrytia"

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I get the argument about limited development resources. 

 

I don't get the argument about

 



If you implement a bunch of things into the EKs there is a good chance a large portion of the playing population will stay in the EKs and not in the CWs.

 

 

It seems to assume that the players are stuck with playing Crowfall, so ACE better not make the EKs fun, because then we'll have fewer players in the CWs.  In particular, it seems to assume that

[a] some players will not find the CWs to be very fun, and

those players will "stay in the EKs and not in the CWs".

 

But people who aren't having much fun in the CWs will have choices other than playing in the EK.  In particular, one obvious choice will be playing a different game altogether.  In other words, the audience is not captive.  Consequently, I would not recommend making the EKs boring just to try to force people into CWs.

 

MB

 

PS. Of course, [a] is simply false -- the CWs will rock! B)

 

edit: remove auto shades; add "one obvious choice" and shades.

Edited by MBLiberty



"and a couple of the Kickstarter packages were just crazy good"




oj57UME.gif


Note: Eye candy presented with thanks to the Crow(s) who granted permission for me to include their badge(s) in this tasty exhibit.

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I get the argument about limited development resources. 

 

I don't get the argument about

 

 

It seems to assume that the players are stuck with playing Crowfall, so ACE better not make the EKs fun, because then we'll have fewer players in the CWs.  In particular, it seems to assume that

[a] some players will not find the CWs to be very fun, and

those players will "stay in the EKs and not in the CWs".

 

But people who aren't having much fun in the CWs will have choices other than playing in the EK.  In particular, will be playing a different game altogether.  In other words, the audience is not captive.  Consequently, I would not recommend making the EKs boring just to try to force people into CWs.

 

MB

 

PS. Of course, [a] is simply false -- the CWs will rock!

 

edit: remove auto shades

LOL!   There is a portion of this community that will play this game re of it being fun or not because of loyalty to a certain Dev :)   They are the portion that will more thn likely utilize the EK's mostly if not exclusively and in  fact, those are the ones that will need entisement to at least try the campaigns.  Hence the rarer resources in the CW.  You would be surprised how long some can stay perfectly happy decorating, chatting and playing tag and occasionally killing a few monsters.   I have seen it ;)  I too believe that the campaign worlds will be awesome but to some the "other" part of this community is the "part" that isn't fun.  And that part will be playing the campaigns.  


Maybe it not about the happy ending. Maybe it's about the story.

RIP Doc Gonzo "to anyone...speak your mind...defend your position...be prepared for an Argument and enjoy the process of the discussion...that's all part of any good Forum experience"

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I guess the point I always go back to with the whole "EK's are against the original vision" thing is, how is a permanent small campaign world with controllable pvp ruleset against the vision? Yes Im sure some vendor cities will be safe zones, but do you think most will? I think most become guild training and sparring grounds. Places where allied guilds can have mock battles and practice specs and tactics. But again at the end of the day you really have no say in how others play the game, and the EK's were pretty obviously in ACE's vision as it was one of the first and most detailed info drops during the KS... Hell we got more info on the EK's then we did on basic combat and thats the foundation of the game.


"He's like Batman except without the moral compass" ~Juror during first innocent verdict 

 

Ghost's of War, PvP gaming community founded 2002

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GW explained his logic and number crunching demographic tendencies in the trammell thread. I hope j Todd has trained shield smash.

I wonder if GW has said anything in the SWG forum about what happens when you ignore the community. Maybe something about a giant riot of players outside a certain spaceport crashing the server? It's all good though and I'm sure we don't need to analyze or crunch numbers to know Crowfall will do very well upon release. So long as I don't see anyone running around in a tuxedo, wedding dress or beach clothes, I'll be happy.

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So long as I don't see anyone running around in a tuxedo, wedding dress or beach clothes, I'll be happy.

 

Ohai, I'd like you to meet my monocle:

eve-monocle-riot-intro.jpg


I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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What I hate about EK's

 

I very much hate the moniker 'Eternal Kingdom' it has caused complete cognitive dissonance on the forums since day one.

 

A Kingdom by definition is a politically organized community or major territorial unit, a realm or region in which something is dominant, an area or sphere in which one holds a preeminent position.

 

Kingdoms are for building, holding, and fighting over. And having Kingdoms outside the realm of  PvP and on a safe shard is not congruent with with its definition.

 

If Crowfall needs an Eternal Swap Meet or Eternal Walmart, which I believe they do, then call it The Eternal Elysium. And cash shop the hell out of it with haircuts, costumes, and accessories. And if players want to sit around prettying up their private Kingdom that's fine with me, I got mats to sell, as I will never develop my private Kingdom beyond the minimum.

 

But if the Devs are going to allow players to Militarize private Eternal Elysiums then maybe they should think about a campaign world where players can import their entire Kingdom into the campaign world to fight other Kingdoms. You can bring in whatever you have built in your private shard, but whatever gets destroyed in the campaign you have to rebuild. Just make the risk worth the reward to get participation.

 

And yes some fat mouthed braggarts will never put their Kingdoms at risk and sit around and talk poo-poo on the forums all day long, and then try to Merc into your campaign to break your stuff, but so what, kill dey ass, at least it's PvP.

 

Just one humble mans opinion.

 

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