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Roxfall

What I learned from playing Tera

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What I've learned from posts like these:

 

Tera's early game strikes again, turning everyone off to the idea of animation lock, when it's an incredibly intuitive and fun system compared to GCD or Wildstar's ice skating.  No one bothers going far enough to at least play the first dungeon or encounter your first BAM (the basilisks were horribly overnerfed IMO though) to actually get a real feel of what the game is like.  Inexperience means no one realizes practically every ability can be canceled one way or another or is designed to flow into another ability.  Everyone who tries Tera gives it five miserable minutes because its low levels are atrocious and they're immediately against the idea of action combat when Tera has the best non-tab target combat system of any MMO in existence I'm aware of today.  It really should be held up as a standard.  It's just a shame you don't get a real feel of it until level 20 and then the true experience until level cap (or at least level 60).

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Visually, artistically telegraphs have no problems.

 

If the problem is that they don't look cool enough, that is 100% solvable. If the problem is that you don't like looking at the ground when you're playing with really cool 3d models and characters you want to focus on...

 

That's not a problem.

 

Those don't affect the concept in any significant way, It'd be easier for me to literally voice how that would be fine, but for now just trust that art people can solve that kind of problem 100% and it just becomes a theme/vision/production cost thing for the system.

 

IMO. the problem with them clogging up the screen can also be mitigated, or might be a misunderstanding of a different problem that already exists within the combat system.

 

Basically you could do it like True Vision (stealth/detection system in LoL) within an area they appear...for an easy slap-chop answer.

 

Thats just off the top of my nog, there are more solutions out there for a myriad of the problems out there for telegraphs, its just a matter of if you want to solve em.

 

****
 

Er.

 

***

So anyhow I like the idea of position locking moves to change the tone of action combat into a slower paced more tactical positioning game, but I understand from a feel perspective that if they don't sell that experience you're not going to like it if you're wanting mobility and twitch action combat.

 

*****

also yes the Crowfall devs also mentioned tera's early game sucking*...and I've read elsewhere that it sucks, so maybe you don't honestly have a clear perspective on what that design represents.

 

 

*not verbatim

Edited by Zomnivore

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I'm playing a Warrior in Tera, think a rogue with dual swords.  Some of the actions are fluid, however, there are times where I have to wait for the animation to stop before I can do a different ability.  I don't follow the built in combo system because I don't like it. There are some I do use but most I don't.

 

My Zerker has taken damage because it has to wait for the animation before the block sticks. These are some of the problems I have with Tera. When I hit block, I expect it to stop any animation and block.


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Camaraderie ~ Loyalty ~ Honor ~ Maturity ~ Integrity ~ Duty

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My Zerker has taken damage because it has to wait for the animation before the block sticks. These are some of the problems I have with Tera. When I hit block, I expect it to stop any animation and block.

 

You could argue that knowing when you can and can't get away with using certain abilities is part of the skill of the game. On the other hand, back when I played, the answer to "when can you use cyclone" was "haha, never", so there's that side too.

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The combat in TERA takes some time getting used to, yes. Especially the animation locks, which I'm still torn about. Even though I played TERA first back in 2009 in the western FGT (Focus Group Test) and plenty during beta up and till release. I actually have no real opinions regarding animation locks, I guess I don't mind them.. but I kind of do at the same time. I like there being consequences behind actions, forcing the player to think, plan and not just spam. However, I also like when the combat feels fluid, fun and fast-paced.

I wonder if there is a way where you can design a sort of hybrid system. Perhaps animations locks could be only used by very heavy, finisher-type of attacks? In an attempt to bring the "best" of two worlds, having the combat being tactical and you have to commit to heavy attacks, while still allowing the player to move at least somewhat during combat. Who knows, I know I don't, I'm not a gameplay designer and I will not pretend to be.

Its an interesting topic though, thats for sure. I'm very curious as to how combat in Crowfall will turn out!

Edited by Lorgarn

"Grateful Dead, rock's longest, strangest trip."
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queing skills is another thing they need to consider.  We need the ability to que skills.  While skills are qued, There should only be specific skills that will break that que.  A dodge or block should break the que.  An interrupt skill should break the que.  What i don't want is other skills to break the que.  Lag and connection plays to much of an role and makes the game twitchy without a skill que system.

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Animation locks can be pretty newb if they are used to slow the pace of the game down.  If crowfall slows their game down too much they aren't going to have a lot of skilled gamers interested in it. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I'm playing a Warrior in Tera, think a rogue with dual swords.  Some of the actions are fluid, however, there are times where I have to wait for the animation to stop before I can do a different ability.  I don't follow the built in combo system because I don't like it. There are some I do use but most I don't.

 

My Zerker has taken damage because it has to wait for the animation before the block sticks. These are some of the problems I have with Tera. When I hit block, I expect it to stop any animation and block.

It's a matter of learning what can be broken by what, what makes what attack faster, and when breaks (especially block cancels for lancer/zerk) can be used to end an animation early.  I badly want there to be animation locking.  There's plenty they could do to tweak it compared to Tera to improve flow, but if you're going to be a skill based aim based combat system you need animation locking otherwise we get Wildstar ice skating and the wet noodle effect like in ESO where every attack feels like a child swinging an empty paper towel roll.

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You also have to understand the need for said animationlock.

Tera has been praised for having a flashy type combat, well animated and looks flawless when done right.. But you have to lock a character into an animation for this to actually work.

 

In other actionbased mmos like GW2, the combat is more simplistic when you look at the animations, why? Because they want you to move around more, so to be able to do that the animations are simple but effective.

 

So it all depends on how you want the game to look. Do you want flashy well done animations that looks incredible, or do you want simple, effective and short animations that makes the combat flow better.

I would go with gameplay every time.

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Ice skating can turn off players just like animation locking, with the popularity of Dark Souls, Bloodbourne and Monster Hunter, it's clear that some people enjoy the gameplay and challenge.

 

I think there should be archetypes and abilities with forced movement or un locked movement as a variation in character design, but these abilities and archetypes can be measured out disadvantages suitable to such an advantage.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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I won't mind "controllable" animations, but there needs to be some level of lock or restriction.  Chivalry for example allows you to treat the mouse as your "hips" when swinging weapons, so while your momentum slows as your body is forced to balance going from forward movement to a thrust or overhead or slash, you can still turn into a target to strike them if you'd have missed.  This could would with a tighter lock the deeper into a combo you go and for the harder hitting or more powerful or more riskier skills.  All I know is what little I've watched of Darkfall (even though I've not played) was so chaotic and spastic and impossible to follow, and what little I played of Wildstar was a button mash of disco floor ice rinks, that when I think of Tera, even clunky as feck vanilla launch berserkers, the style and execution of combat via animation lock feels like a vastly superior system.

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Forced movement would be animation locks with movements built in, so you could attempt to choose or alter combos and actions which involve a desired movement.

 

I also think something like Centaur and hopefully other Archetypes fighting from horseback should be able to move and attack as their passing or fire projectiles while moving. it may lock them in a direction, but it's not Cavalry if they stop. As a counter effect, the damage dealt by and received when in motion could increase so it pretty much benefits both the rider and the footman, meaning a powerful single hit attack or a charged attack would cause a great deal of damage to whichever one lands effectively, the mobility advantage would mostly lie in the ability to decide whether to engage.

 

Some actions could also offer some mobility, even if it is slow and limited, like a Stalker pacing in any direction slowly while drawing and firing, as long as it's slow enough that it doesn't move players outside of a strike and makes no meaningful impact on kiting, it's not really a problem, the ability to or actions which allow movement can diversify your action choices and even archetype variation, Where a Ranger and Stalker may both be archers, if the Stalker can move somewhat while firing as a generalization, it makes two archetypes which are similar in general more unique.

 

I'm expecting Fae and Guineaceans to be pretty fragile yet agile by nature, perhaps with less direct move speed than a Centaur, but more evasiveness in the responsiveness of their evasive maneuvers.

 

The main thing is that there are dozens of ways to program actions, and they should all be used in various ways and combinations to allow each archetype to distinguish their advantages and disadvantages, and make the gameplay diversity more compelling,


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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High heel prejudice has already been addressed... It should not break immersion.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kc17H68IKMs

 

It does. It is the whole reason I didn't play Tera to begin with. That's how immersion breaking it is.

I only played Tera that one weekend to make sure I understand the combat model.

High heels absolutely ruined the world of Tera for me.

 

Most importantly, high heels ruined Tera for my -wallet-. There is no greater way they could ruin a game for me.

 

This video is funny. But even as you watch the dancers, they do a lot of motion with their upper bodies and their hips, and most of the motions are ankle-locked straight down. There's no argument that stiletto heels are not restrictive in terms of motion possible in them. These heels also make you less stable, and you need that stability when you're getting bull rushed.

 

Here's an interpetive dance video. Please note that the dancers have a wider range of motion in their ankles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96JTJitRt74

 

Here's a basic fencing video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8IdfA5fXJs

 

You do a basic lunge in your stilletto heels, you're either on your ass or have an instant broken ankle.


Greatswords for Frostweavers 2015! For great justice! And swords.

P.S. I like swords.

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On the subject of animation locks, they affect melee characters more than ranged characters. It's harder for a melee toon with short range to complete a "locked" animation and still land a hit on a moving target than for a ranged toon with a longer range to do the same.

 

Ironically, most toons in League of Legends are animation locked.

 

But the attack animations are super cartoonishly fast, which makes them okay.


Greatswords for Frostweavers 2015! For great justice! And swords.

P.S. I like swords.

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