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Gilgamer

Concurrent Stretch Goals

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Disclaimer: This is about stretch goals and crowd-funding in general not necessarily applied to ACE or CF, though I would certainly like to see the conversation go there.

 

Stretch Goals and Crowd Funding go hand-in-hand, but I have yet to see a developer give players/backers a real choice by letting them choose which stretch goals to fund and in what order.  Developers do sometimes let players suggest stretch goals, and maybe they do poll their backers to see which stretch goal will come next, but once the next stretch goal is announced you usually only have one choice.

 

As it stands now, most let you choose to either fund the current stretch goal... or not.  The current stretch goal might be well conceived, well intended, and might even be of interest to some players, but if it doesn't excite you, then you have the choice to contribute anyways, in hopes the next stretch goal will be more aligned with your play style, but then you may not have the funds to also contribute to that stretch goal when it comes along.  Obviously if you want the game to arrive sooner rather than later (and who doesn't) you may choose to contribute more even if the current stretch goal isn't something that excites you, but what if the stretch goal isn't something that isn't going to make the game ship faster or conversely might make it ship later? 

 

Has anyone seen a game or other crowd-funded project that runs multiple concurrent stretch goals so you have a choice as to where your developer dollars go?  One possible soluting is being able to choose among multiple stretch goal options, even if they were only divided into categories with only one goal per category.

 

This is all purely hypothetical using CF as an example, and not necessarily Stretch Goals I am advocating for.

 

Stretch Goals:

 

Art - 60K - Additional combat animations for more weapon types per archetype.  This involves hiring another animator/rigger. 

 

Features - 300K - Naval Combat.  This involves hiring two additional artists, an additional animator, and a programmer.

 

Quality of Life - 50K - 4k UI and Controller Support.  This involves....

 

General/Overhead -  The Sky's the Limit - This is for people happy with the current scope of the game who just want it done faster.  This money is used at the developer's discretion to hire added personnel or outsource as needed to speed production. 

 

A backer could choose which goal their money goes towards and each Goal could have a window that expires if certain milestones aren't met, so that goals with insufficient interest would be replaced, and the monies re-allocated elsewhere.  Backers could then discuss the pros/cons of each goal, or advocate for specific goals of interest to themselves.  I understand that there are things that should trump others, and you don't want to put the proverbial cart before the horse, but when a game addition is not "core" and is discretional it would be nice to have more input.  Maybe it's a horrible idea, hopefully you'll sound off on it either way. 


Luke I am your Uncle... Bob.  What, my sister Padmè never mentioned me?

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This would be dangerous for a company to approach as it gives a lot of leverage to the community to continue pushing certain features while others that NEED attention aren't getting them due to money contributions.

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No back seat stretch goaling. Their priority goes beyond what someone would "like to have". Hiring a new artist may not sound very exciting to some people but only they know if they need it or not and only they know if its more important than anything else.

 

We certainly can talk about ideas for stretch goals, which we have been doing and maybe they'll like an idea.

 

Also if they let us start picking stretch goals the game should come out by 2030 :)

Edited by oberon

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Honestly I think a lot of this happens naturally and you don't need a direct "pick-a-goal" approach. Looking at a few stretch goals we have had so far, many have been player suggested. This allows the development team the opportunity to make reasonable decisions about stretch goals while still listening to the community. The direct path could lead to more complications.

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Something I would have appreciated a lot. There are many stretch goals that didn't really matter to me and other things I wish they would solicit.

 

Virtually all if the stretch goals in the kickstarter felt like stuff already planned for the game, and that's not so bad, while others represented features I cared about none at all, like VR support and European servers, let those interested contribute to those.

 

I wouldn't expect something as rich as a full naval system, simply because I want it to have a lot of depth, which sounds more like 1 mil than 300K. I would however have been elated to see aerial gameplay for fae and general interaction incorporated as it was expected by all the wing teasing.

 

We have a Minotaur which was a nice surprise, but with Fae getting its wings clipped, it feels like Riot games, where failed existing content is overlooked with new content. Nothing they do with Minotaur will be as unique and rich as flight and associated interactions on Fae.

 

Also, putting up multiple stretch goals even in sequence would help too. That way players can anticipate later goals even if they don't like the next one.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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I understand that the Developer's vision for the core game must come first, and I also understand feature creep and its effect.  That's why I suggested categorizing the Stretch Goals but only have one goal per category, and new Features would be a category, meaning just one new feature, and they would only be added as they were funded and hired for. 

 

Some people want a feature rich game, others are content with something more minimal, some people favor the eye-candy and support for the latest hardware and peripherals, while others just want the damn game yesterday.  This is the purest form of letting people vote with their wallets, and ultimately all the funds result in a better game overall, because the devs still have the ultimate say into what stretch goals populate each category, and how those things are implemented once funded.  I even included a catchall category for those that just want to speed up production by throwing money at the devs (if that's even possible), without expecting any new features or art in exchange.

Edited by Gilgamer

Luke I am your Uncle... Bob.  What, my sister Padmè never mentioned me?

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Lock down the features and do like SC does now, no more stretch goal feature promises.  They use the additional funds as needed, on what they need, or bank it for the future.


> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

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Lock down the features and do like SC does now, no more stretch goal feature promises.  They use the additional funds as needed, on what they need, or bank it for the future.

 

I actually like the way SC is doing things now.. No strech goals, just a letter once a month or so.

But then again, they had a huge problem with Strech-goal bloat where they had a years worth of dev time in those goals alone, that's why they stopped them.

 

Making up strechgoals to satisfy the fanbase can hurt the games vision as well.

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I think they could make some good money just adding more archetypes as stretch goals, but I don't know the logistics of creating an archetype and whether time is the most limiting factor in that regard. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I'm not convinced that stretch goals actually generate any significant amount of income over just marketing the core product that you already intend to make, and using those funds to make the game better in whatever way you think best at the time.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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New Archetypes multiply the complexity of the game, they should add them sparingly, and realize the ones already in the game first. There's literally no point to adding archetypes when you got wing teases like Fae who are being grounded u.u


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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well to me it would be nice to see other stretch goals with the bonus of "will be implemented after the release". 

 

I mean we are at the beginning of everything. (well we are some steps ahead already but in general). So I think they should add only features which they can certainly bring into the game while not interfering with the development process. 

 

And if they can't they should specifically say "Naval - Air - Vehicle - combat" - 500k - will be implemented after the release. Or adding " 2 new Archtypes shortly after the release", etc.

 

But in general I think that after the Banecircle Stretchgoal we should call it an incredible progress and let them develop the game. I mean maybe they come up with another stretchgoal feature in the development process.  


You get the wolves...lots of wolves...and sheep that wear armor and have developed an appetite for blood soaked grass - dubanka

Even insects smell good when roasted - a random confessor

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I think they could make some good money just adding more archetypes as stretch goals, but I don't know the logistics of creating an archetype and whether time is the most limiting factor in that regard. 

 

Definitely no!  IMO, they're releasing with too many as it is.  The amount of work required for every archetype is considerable and requires multiple people involved in various aspects of their creation and implementation.  If anything, they should have started with only 5 and added the others in post-release updates.


> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

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Definitely no!  IMO, they're releasing with too many as it is.  The amount of work required for every archetype is considerable and requires multiple people involved in various aspects of their creation and implementation.  If anything, they should have started with only 5 and added the others in post-release updates.

The whole reason for doing archetypes (race and class locked together) versus the traditional (choose your race then your class) was for ease of implementation. Fewer sets of armor, fewer animations, fewer assets in general.  With that being said it is still a lot of work but they obviously have the art pipeline to deliver or they wouldn't have promised them.  From a function standpoint they don't have a lot of the headaches other MMOs have as well, they aren't as focused on 1v1 balance or all DPS having the same damage output.  They also don't have to worry about gating ability behind levels and trying to plan out each character's advancement, because it's much more freeform than that.  Since we don't get the option to freely choose our race and class combination I am glad to see as many archetypes as they've announced and welcome more.


Luke I am your Uncle... Bob.  What, my sister Padmè never mentioned me?

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So I think they should add only features which they can certainly bring into the game while not interfering with the development process. 

 

But in general I think that after the Banecircle Stretchgoal we should call it an incredible progress and let them develop the game. I mean maybe they come up with another stretchgoal feature in the development process.  

I can certainly agree with this.  I think the scope of the game is good enough for release, as do most people that backed before seeing the first stretch goal.

 

There are stretch goals that don't increase the game's scope, and could possibly be developed in parallel with other systems without overly hindering development.

 

Things Like:

A Cinematic Trailer (worked on by artists outside the game art pipeline)

Authored Lore Fiction

Controller Support

4K Support

API Tools

Accessibility Settings (for colorblindness and audio impairment)

VOIP

 

Again, these aren't must have additions, but some might be willing to put money towards one or more of these items specifically if given the opportunity.

Edited by Gilgamer

Luke I am your Uncle... Bob.  What, my sister Padmè never mentioned me?

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Truthfully, I think the ONLY stretch goal I want from this point is to push for a faster development. A bigger team being hired would overall be better because instead of playing beta 1 by next summer, we can be playing launch by next August. Not saying this would happen, but I don't want to see Naval combat, oceans, biomes and other stuff that is unnecessary and just play the game. I'd rather play a working version of this game earlier that I was apart of helping create, than keep the December (arguably later) launch date with plans for about 6-10 other years of development on other features. Those who bought the VIP for 6 years, good for you, it is a great deal...if you play the game that long, which for an MMO has hardly been seen besides maybe literally WoW, Runescape and Wizard101 (maybe Everquest and a few others but I'm talking continual popularity, excluding you Shadowbane players, since again, continual popularity). All the ones I listed are titans of the MMO industry and usually did the impossible by eliminating competition. Reason why Wizard101 is still around, because it monopolized the "Family Friendly MMO" market. Fusion Fall, Toontown, Club Penguin (to an extent), Pirates of the Caribbean, Free Realms, all buckled while wizard stayed around. Same for WoW. Lots of clones of WoW out there but none come close to the popularity of Warcraft. I just say this since I am a Senior in high school now, I will be a Freshman in college when the game is released and I'd rather be playing a game with my guild earlier, so that I know they will be around, opposed to waiting until my sophomore year of college to realize, I'm playing alone, the game has the same age old guilds controlling campaigns and all I get to look forward to is boats because that's what the kickstarter backers wanted.

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