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Zerve

Rocket Jumps, Bunny Hopping, and other skilled movement

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With the recent information about physics and movement, I started to wonder what other implications this could mean. It's also pretty clear that the main player-base for Crowfall is a bit more mature. Likely, we have all played games like Quake or Tribes, in which skillful movement actually became a part of the game.

With Crowfall being fantasy oriented, obviously rocket jumps are out of the question. However, will similar mechanics be usable? With all the talk of emergent game play, I think this would be a great addition to the game. Give us abilities with multiple uses rather than just one dimensional ones.

For example, take a slow moving meteor ability. Sure, it does a lot of damage, but it's easy to dodge. Now let's say the caster could choose to hit himself with this ability, while jumping. This would launch him into some direction such as up a castle wall, or away from a melee assassin. He could even time this together with his teammates to launch some aerial surprise attack over a castle wall. (It's raining centaurs!)

Another idea would be a frostweaver who turns the ground to ice. Using this reduced friction environment, she can gracefully bunnyhop across this surface at an increasing speed. Again, this has multiple uses. Fast travel for solo, groups, or even a kind of skill advantage because likely the frostweaver player has more experience fighting on an ice environment.

Many older games had these "features" as bugs, but actually added so much to the gameplay the devs decided to keep them. Skiing in Tribes, rocket jumps in Quake and Unreal, bunny hopping and surfing in Half Life, and even the bug ridden k-style of GunZ online.

These features create a really high skill ceiling that can truly separate the good from the best. I think it might be worthwhile to look at this, because it can add a lot gameplay depth, build diversity, and make the game feel more visceral.
 

Below are some examples, from realistic nifty tricks, all the way to crazy over-the-top physics movement. In order from simple to more extreme examples:

 

WoW - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dtBz1Q4ZsQ - WoW Hunter: Jump Disengage. Using a defensive "leap-back" ability in numerous ways.

CS:GO - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQGUF1qhGBk - Small jumps to get to some hard-to-reach places. Utilizes bunny hopping / air acceleration.

UT99 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8dTYsacHx8 - Neat tricks and routes to move a flag around the map. Some including killing your character or just hefty self-damage in exchange for mobility.

Tribes: Ascend - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBBAYt3N2tI - Skiing in Tribes. Severely lowers player friction (think running on ice) paired with rockets. Momentum based movement

Gunz - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGe6N_jgs60 - K-Style. A series of animation cancels, air dashes, and resets, allowing players to essentially fly around the map.

Quake - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUCtMIjL-Z4 - Pretty crazy example, done by extremely skilled players, NOT REALISTIC GAMEPLAY, just something cool to show off the limitations (or lack thereof) of the engine.

 

What do you think? Do you think rocket jumps or bunny hopping has a place in Crowfall?

Edited by Zerve

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I am a big fan of those sorts of movements and spent considerable time reaching questionable levels of mastery in them when I was younger.

 

Nevertheless, I don't know if I really feel that they're appropriate for games that feature large scale combat nor large open worlds. Too much of a can of worms in a variety of ways.

 

That said I do hope movement is important! It's definitely one of the two most important elements of a good combat system.

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With the recent information about physics and movement, I started to wonder what other implications this could mean. It's also pretty clear that the main playerbase for Crowfall is a bit more mature. Likely, we have all played games like Quake or Tribes, in which skillful movement actually became a part of the game.

 

Actually most of the vocal playerbase right now are gamers that don't really have experience in those types of games.  They generally come from less mechanically focused games like shadowbane. 

 

With Crowfall being fantasy oriented, obviously rocket jumps are out of the question. However, will similar mechanics be usable? With all the talk of emergent gameplay, I think this would be a great addition to the game. Give us abilities with multiple uses rathar than just one dimentional ones.

 

Movement is the most important thing to pin down as you will be moving more than anything else you do and it is a huge part of combat as well.  What I believe they should do is have archetypes just completely varied on how fast they can move, how high they can jump, and general mobility. 

 

I also believe any truly player skill based game has very open movement system as it is a big part of skill and people that can't move well should not be protected from being disadvantaged because of it. 

 

For example, take a slow moving meteor ability. Sure, it does a lot of damage, but it's easy to dodge. Now let's say the caster could choose to hit himself with this ability, while jumping. This would launch him into some direction such as up a castle wall, or away from a melee assassin. He could even time this together with his teammates to launch some aerial surprise attack over a castle wall. (It's raining centaurs!)

 

Another idea would be a frostweaver who turns the ground to ice. Using this reduced friction environment, she can gracefully bunnyhop across this surface at an increasing speed. Again, this has multiple uses. Fast travel for solo, groups, or even a kind of skill advantave because likely the frostweaver player has more experience fighting on an ice environment.

 

Many older games had these "features" as bugs, but actually added so much to the gameplay the devs decided to keep them. Skiing in Tribes, rocket jumps in Quake and Unreal, bunny hopping and surfing in Half Life, and even the bug ridden k-style of GunZ online.

 

These features create a really high skill ceiling that can truly seperate the good from the best. I think it might be worthwile to look at this, because it can add a lot gameplay depth, build diversity, and make the game feel more visceral.

 

What do you think? Do you think rocket jumps or bunny hopping has a place in Crowfall?

 

I'd love mechanics like this... let's put the skill back in games... unfortunately a lot may disagree with you because most of them have never truly played a mechanically intensive game to any real level of proficiency. 

 

Posted on mobile. Sorry.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I don't mind if the physics are advanced enough to make unique interactions like sliding on ice or blast jumps, but I'd rather have more deliberate and punishing physics, like actually having flight on the Fae, with multiple flight obstacles, or Frostweaver freezing the ground, but it isn't smooth because the ground isn't smooth, it's just frozen, and trying to do anything but scoot across ice results in you collapsing and falling on your @ss, not sliding freely between jumps.

 

Hopefully there is enough physics so you can't bunny hop, since your body has to restore stability after you land, you can't jump 5 feet into the air, come down 5 feet, than jump right away, your mass is still moving downward and your body gradually catches it, you don't stop going down the second your feet hit the ground, if your falling fast enough, damage, if you get hit will making huge jumps or trying to stick difficult falls, injury.

 

I'm not going to go into all I know about jumping, falling and sliding, but I will say that I'd rather they graduated the physics to behave more like limitations rather than gimmicks. So that Confessor drops a meteor behind him to give him a boost, he flies 3 times as far as any jump, takes almost as much damage from the fall as he did from the launch, and lands on his chest, effectively killing himself and CCing himself, The Assassin looks at him like he's crazy, because he doesn't have any moves that could 100% to 5% him and knock him down, than lobs a dagger at him while he's getting up for the free kill.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Modified the original post to include these examples for those who may not be familiar with the mentioned games. Edits can be seen here:

 

*Begin Edits*
 

WoW - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dtBz1Q4ZsQ - WoW Hunter: Jump Disengage. Using a defensive "leap-back" ability in numerous ways.

CS:GO - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQGUF1qhGBk - Small jumps to get to some hard-to-reach places. Utilizes bunny hopping / air acceleration.

UT99 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8dTYsacHx8 - Neat tricks and routes to move a flag around the map. Some including killing your character or just hefty self-damage in exchange for mobility.

Tribes: Ascend - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBBAYt3N2tI - Skiing in Tribes. Severely lowers player friction (think running on ice) paired with rockets. Momentum based movement

Gunz - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGe6N_jgs60 - K-Style. A series of animation cancels, air dashes, and resets, allowing players to essentially fly around the map.

Quake - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUCtMIjL-Z4 - Pretty crazy example, done by extremely skilled players, NOT REALISTIC GAMEPLAY, just something cool to show off the limitations (or lack thereof) of the engine.

 

*End Edits*

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Skill based movment? Yes please!

Importance being given to clever positioning? Yes! 

Performing manouvers in a bigger group, possibly taking advantage of terrain? Dear me, yes! 

 

 

ADD inducing frantic bunnyhopping? Gods no! 

 

 

One thing that always put me off by PvP in some games, is the manic hopping about of players: Most of the time it's not really needed and really detracts from any immersion. 

 

Yes, I remember Quake and Unreal Tournament, that was great fun. But I do not think that form of combat has any place here in CF.

Thing about those games, is they are high-octane, fast paced, twitch-based action games: And this style suits them.

 

Having played Tera, I believe I would prefer a much slower, abeit deliberate and tactical form of combat: Have the chance to feel the weight behind your attacks and give some room for strategic planning.

Personally, to me that sounds way more interesting.

 

I'even be fine with it if they took away the ability to jump altogether.

 

As always,

 

Just my 2c, 


~Strategy is the art of making use of time and space.
I'm less concerned about the latter than the former: Space we can recover, lost time never.

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I'm hoping there's a level of fatigue with combat and movement in general. That would kill off any of the ridiculous movement from games like Quake.

 

You can have emergent gameplay without the silliness of rocket-jumping.

Edited by bairloch

I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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As someone who played DFO, Gunz, and Tribes I will say the bunny-hopping, k-style, and skating were either my top most hated feature or second most hated feature in all three of those games. (With DFO bunny-hopping was only 2nd to the ridiculous grind.)

 

These kinds of "skilled" movement only detract from more engaging things such as aiming attacks, ability selection, and more fluid dodging systems. 

 

I really hope we will see agile characters diving out of the way of fireballs and other very skill based active dodges that are that are fluid and natural. I do not hope that complex forms of unnatural/glitchy feeling movement become the most skill intensive portion of the game. That would be horrible.

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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One of the most fluid tactile mmo movement systems out there.  The pvp ladder used to be extremely fun but that's another discussion.  The movement is fluid, percise and well done.

 

example:

 

Spectate view:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAtCztr66Jo

 

Pov Melee:

https://youtu.be/dkFPcjtjw-c?t=950

 

Pov Ranged:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEkSM90eXfA

Edited by facerip

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I'm sure people will find all kinds of ways to slingshot each other around and abuse the physics. Especially with all the archetypes having different masses and run speeds etc.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing what crazy thing people do.

 

Relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qEwBi1NyBI

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One of the most fluid tactile mmo movement systems out there.  The pvp ladder used to be extremely fun but that's another discussion.  The movement is fluid, percise and well done.

 

example:

 

Spectate view:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAtCztr66Jo

 

Pov Melee:

https://youtu.be/dkFPcjtjw-c?t=950

 

Pov Ranged:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEkSM90eXfA

 

Aside from the fact I do not care for the artstyle and it's a tad too flashy for my tastes, that is actually well done: It has speed, is fluid, yet movement still looks delibirate and attacks look like it would feel they have weight behind them.

 

Though, as these are 1v1 duels, one has to wonder if this would work in a mass setting; say, a 50v50 or a 100v100+ siege.

 

Character animations look good though. 


~Strategy is the art of making use of time and space.
I'm less concerned about the latter than the former: Space we can recover, lost time never.

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One of the most fluid tactile mmo movement systems out there.  The pvp ladder used to be extremely fun but that's another discussion.  The movement is fluid, percise and well done.

 

example:

 

Spectate view:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAtCztr66Jo

 

Pov Melee:

https://youtu.be/dkFPcjtjw-c?t=950

 

Pov Ranged:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEkSM90eXfA

Dragon Nest is great... takes tremendous skill... maybe a bit too much for most suds. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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ofc we want a higher skillceiling in the game, it makes for a much better game in the end when the difference between a good and bad players relies rather on skill than gear you spent 300 hours grinding for.

 

Also makes it a lot easier to gank noobs that does not know the combat that well.

 

I got no problem with this suggestion. 

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Yea, I am thinking ACE will go with whatever is FUN for the greatest number of players.   Would not be conducive to good business to hit the high and low point of a bell curve when the most $$$ comes from the middle of it.  Will some be disappointed?   I am sure they will be.  They can play for a few months and move on, like they have done in other games only to tell the tale in some other game down the road how they were the best and the game sucked.   The rest of the population will stick around and have fun and support the game.  Funny thing about those middle of the bell curve players, they are really loyal.   


Maybe it not about the happy ending. Maybe it's about the story.

RIP Doc Gonzo "to anyone...speak your mind...defend your position...be prepared for an Argument and enjoy the process of the discussion...that's all part of any good Forum experience"

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The best part about modern gaming is that the middle of the curve is just significantly more skillful than it was  in a lot of the older mmos.  So if ACE goes easy to learn hard to master and caters to the middle to top end instead of worrying about the low end (no one caters to the really bad players) then they will be in good shape. 

 

I'm sure some people would rather have a game that doesn't require as much skilled movement, they'd probably prefer a click to move game with less than 100k players where they can hold their own vs other not-very-competitive players, but I think crowfall will appeal to a much more modern crowd.  Which is probably why they've done things like picking action combat.  


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I absolutely agree.   I do think ACE will go with the "easy to learn, hard to master" theory, considering all the backgrounds some are coming from.  Heck, I bet there are those that aren't even sure that the game will be PvP yet.  


Maybe it not about the happy ending. Maybe it's about the story.

RIP Doc Gonzo "to anyone...speak your mind...defend your position...be prepared for an Argument and enjoy the process of the discussion...that's all part of any good Forum experience"

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I agree ellie...

 

It's apparent that they need to move away from simplistic movement, as can be seen in the likes of EQ and WoW. The low skill-cieling of these games is not what they should go for.

 

I personally don't even mind skating, strafe- or circle jumping.

But many here are heavily against any form of bunny-hopping, but here's hoping. :D

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I agree ellie...

 

It's apparent that they need to move away from simplistic movement, as can be seen in the likes of EQ and WoW. The low skill-cieling of these games is not what they should go for.

 

I personally don't even mind skating, strafe- or circle jumping.

But many here are heavily against any form of bunny-hopping, but here's hoping. :D

I think people who are generally against freed up movement are people that have bad aim. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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The best would be the strafing/wall jumping in Gunz combined with the combo system in Blade & Souls.. It would create some insane 1v1's and the skill to pull it off would be pretty high if not pro level. B&S already has a 1v1 competitive tournament every year in korea, and the esport side of that game is pretty big (link)

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