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savage

Please No Potions or Consumables

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No, the problem is you haven't seen this 100 times before, so you don't know how this works. You're envisioning me bartering with some gnome wearing an apron in Olde English. In reality, I'm farming 10,000 Emu Eggs for the guild crafter, praying at the Shrine of Mira 10x a day, praying to Mecca 5x a day, finding the old man's dog 10x a day, and farming 3 hours in the unobtainium mines to inundate the guild's afk macroing crafter to leverage these slight benefits that won't decide anything into a cumulative 60 percent advantage that absolutely will decide every fight, making it a mandatory OCD simulation.

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No, the problem is you haven't seen this 100 times before, so you don't know how this works. You're envisioning me bartering with some gnome wearing an apron in Olde English. In reality, I'm farming 10,000 Emu Eggs for the guild crafter, praying at the Shrine of Mira 10x a day, praying to Mecca 5x a day, finding the old man's dog 10x a day, and farming 3 hours in the unobtainium mines to inundate the guild's afk macroing crafter to leverage these slight benefits that won't decide anything into a cumulative 60 percent advantage that absolutely will decide every fight, making it a mandatory OCD simulation.

 

and you think I exaggerate... 

 

Based on feedback from the ACE team, there will be Alchemy and potions in CF.  If that's going to be a dealbreaker for you, I'm sure you can find competitive enjoyment in another game without potions.

 

There's really not much more for us to debate here.


> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

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Sorry, but Crowfall is still an RPG... more than it is a mortal kombat type of game.  I don't remember any RPG I ever played, or any fantasy based story, that didn't involve Alchemy and potions.

 

The "competitive gaming" and "esports" affecting game design decisions has made a negative impact in the gaming industry as a whole.  They shouldn't dictate game design decisions.  Competitive gameplay should be about how well players play the given game design, not the other way around.

 

Nyt, you stated you've never played a rpg where there are no potions so I will state a couple that you can check if you are interested; Mass Effect and Eve Online.

 

It seems like the main points being made are: Hexen: it has very low entertainment value and takes a long time to do in MMORPGs for something that is mandatory to do in order to be on par with others who play the game. Nyt: it's a staple of RPGs and staying true to the formula is what makes games good.

Edited by Holyvigil

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and you think I exaggerate... 

 

Based on feedback from the ACE team, there will be Alchemy and potions in CF.  If that's going to be a dealbreaker for you, I'm sure you can find competitive enjoyment in another game without potions.

 

There's really not much more for us to debate here.

 

 

 

Regarding the binary existence or nonexistence of potions and alchemy, I don't care. Unlike you, I'm not arguing the objective value of a mechanic I personally like or dislike based on subjective reasons. I have a problem with consumables (you restrict this to alchemy and pots for some reason) when getting them becomes a process/grind/RMT, and guess what, it usually is, unless consumables are not very effective, or don't stack. To be fair, this is really just a sub-argument for the more vs less downtime between fun, and the reason consumables (and by incidental extension your coveted potions and alchemy) are on the firing range for this one is because they have historically been HUGE offenders for the grind/RMT problem in MMO's. You think it's an exaggeration, it's not.

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Nyt, you stated you've never played a rpg where there are no healing potions so I will state a couple that you can check if you are interested; Mass Effect and Eve Online.

 

It seems like the main points being made are: Hexen: it has very low entertainment value and takes a long time to do in MMORPGs for something that is mandatory to do in order to be on par with others who play the game. Nyt: it's a staple of RPGs and staying true to the formula is what makes games good.

 

I didn't restrict my comments to healing potions.. in fact, I don't recall referencing healing potions in any of my examples.  I never played Mass Effect, and I don't consider Eve Online as an RPG.

 

Regarding the binary existence or nonexistence of potions and alchemy, I don't care. Unlike you, I'm not arguing the objective value of a mechanic I personally like or dislike based on subjective reasons. I have a problem with consumables (you restrict this to alchemy and pots for some reason) when getting them becomes a process/grind/RMT, and guess what, it usually is, unless consumables are not very effective, or don't stack. To be fair, this is really just a sub-argument for the more vs less downtime between fun, and the reason consumables (and by incidental extension your coveted potions and alchemy) are on the firing range for this one is because they have historically been HUGE offenders for the grind/RMT problem in MMO's. You think it's an exaggeration, it's not.

 

Entertainment value is subjective to the player and the debate on consumables is going to be subject to a wide variety of opinions.  Personally, I think if implemented properly, is a valid and acceptable mechanic.  Being prepared with consumables and using them appropriately is no different than ensuring I'm wearing the appropriate armor and have the correct weapon and stats for the class and role I'm playing.  It's a mechanic part of the game and is supported by crafting professions (e.g. alchemy or cooking).

 

I understand that you don't view it from the same perspective and hence consider it more of a tedious gaming mechanic.  Unfortunately, for you, Crowfall will have consumables.


> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

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I didn't restrict my comments to healing potions.. in fact, I don't recall referencing healing potions in any of my examples.  I never played Mass Effect, and I don't consider Eve Online as an RPG.

 

 

Entertainment value is subjective to the player and the debate on consumables is going to be subject to a wide variety of opinions.  Personally, I think if implemented properly, is a valid and acceptable mechanic.  Being prepared with consumables and using them appropriately is no different than ensuring I'm wearing the appropriate armor and have the correct weapon and stats for the class and role I'm playing.  It's a mechanic part of the game and is supported by crafting professions (e.g. alchemy or cooking).

 

I understand that you don't view it from the same perspective and hence consider it more of a tedious gaming mechanic.  Unfortunately, for you, Crowfall will have consumables.

Fixed it for you.

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I dont mind some sorta like food drink buff, but straight up potions for health or mana takes away from resource management to a spam fest. Sure one can argue it takes skill to pot and be good since potting essentially turns into a skill that heals, but why even have it in the first place, that can be done with proper support and kiting, not just some guy spamming health pots .


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I was thinking in order to gain health, perhaps the player can flee and scavenge food to regain health. Perhaps they could add small area on map where players have the option to rest but while resting they are immobile and can't do anything else for a time period and also vulnerable for attack.


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Crafted gear, potions, food, structures and siege weapons will be at the core of the game: teamwork and preparation, just like Fighters, Sappers, Scouts and Supports.

 

I want some complex game play rewarding strategy and preparation just as much as PvP skill. Now, this definitely sounds like something ArtCraft intend to deliver.

 

It might not be for everyone, but they have been clear on that point and I don't want them to start and streamline the game like SWG, in order to cater to the masses.

Edited by Krethys

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Please do not have potions or consumable buffs in this game. They detract from group play and give unnecessary advantages to those that farm/craft them all day long (grind). I want to win a fight because my team has more skill and coordination, not because we had more consumables stacked.

Make players rely on one another for buffs to stats. Make that last second heal from your friend mean something; no "oh no" button to pop a potion.

It appears there might be food in the game. If it restores health over time, fine, but make it only work out of combat.

Thanks for reading this. Please discuss.

I definitely agree with everything said here.

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While I do agree with your idea, I think we need to think outside the box on how potions are used/gained.

 

Maybe instead of crafting 100 per day, you can only craft 10, or maybe they're only usable out of combat or while fighting NPCs. Maybe they only restore a small amount of health over time, or that you can only get them by completing certain requirements and aren't crafted at all? Lots of different ways to keep potions in the game without them being overpowered. I do like your point about relying on others for buffs and heals, working together is much more fun. :)

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Lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater here.  Yes, in a lot of games, consumables have not contributed much to the play, and have been an annoying piece of gameplay - similar to other kinds of long lasting buffs, and spammable powers.

 

Consumables serve a great purpose in terms of limiting downtime, especially in PvE, but also in PvP sometimes.  

 

They act as a gold/resource sink to keep inflationary pressures low on the economy.

 

They can be used as a balancing agent.

 

They can provide additional strategies during pvp which can enrich the experience and strategies.

 

All of the above benefits are fantastic, but can be exploited under some situations, and can add to "gear grind" in others.  Its an interesting balance that has to be found, I am confident that the CF team will test these out and do their best


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Regarding the binary existence or nonexistence of potions and alchemy, I don't care. Unlike you, I'm not arguing the objective value of a mechanic I personally like or dislike based on subjective reasons. I have a problem with consumables (you restrict this to alchemy and pots for some reason) when getting them becomes a process/grind/RMT, and guess what, it usually is, unless consumables are not very effective, or don't stack. To be fair, this is really just a sub-argument for the more vs less downtime between fun, and the reason consumables (and by incidental extension your coveted potions and alchemy) are on the firing range for this one is because they have historically been HUGE offenders for the grind/RMT problem in MMO's. You think it's an exaggeration, it's not.

 

Which is why you shouldn't be able to use many at once and there should be some form of in combat downside to spamming them.


David Sirlin's Balancing Multiplayer Games should be mandatory reading for all gamers.

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In the most recent update from the devs, there was a piece of text that said "Grants Inventory Bag (Potions) - Potions placed in Potion bag will not explode when hit."

 

What that means is, potions are already going to be in the game, but they have recognised the problem of popping a ton of them during combat. You will have to take the alchemist discipline to not have your potions explode, which will most likely detract from the amount of damage that you can take or deal. Looks to me like it will be pretty well balanced.


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In the most recent update from the devs, there was a piece of text that said "Grants Inventory Bag (Potions) - Potions placed in Potion bag will not explode when hit."

 

What that means is, potions are already going to be in the game, but they have recognised the problem of popping a ton of them during combat. You will have to take the alchemist discipline to not have your potions explode, which will most likely detract from the amount of damage that you can take or deal. Looks to me like it will be pretty well balanced.

 

I didn't really think about the implications of this Potion Bag. Maybe an Alchemist won't be as much about handing potions to Fighters like a Blacksmith would give them gear, and more about self buff and heals...

 

I hope I'm wrong. Anything that brings interdependence and gets players to work together (Crafters and Fighters in that case), is a must have in my book.

 

 

...well maybe we just have enough of these with Crafters and Food Buffs already. Having Alchemist as a Fighter/Suport Discipline could actually be interesting.

Edited by Krethys

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I'd rather the game not have potions than risk it ending up anything like DOTA2 or where you NEED to have meds in order to stay competitive.  It just cheapens the experience imo.

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Its not that potions are limited in quantity or that its hard to get them (everyone has access), its the premise that always having a temporary potion buff is redundant. Might as well make them permanent abilities or buffs.

 

And no, they don't stimulate an economy in a game as much as people think. Game economies are vastly different from real world. 

 

 

IF they were implemented then it should be like this:

 

  • Potions are like energy drinks. Drink one and it last a certain amount of time but then you crash from withdrawal and get a Debuff.
  • Drink them all day everyday and your character now depends on them. When not constantly providing said character with them, you are constantly debuffed.

 

How bout that potion lovers?

 

I love the debuff idea as attached to a potion/consumable.  It would require much more strategy to be applied in their use, and make for a more interesting game over all.  Great post.

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There definetly needs to be potions in CF it's a big part of RPGs. It also adds a lot of gameplay for the alchemist crafter. Getting the ingredients and makeing the potions. The potions should only be able to be made by players. The potions should not give a massive buff only like 10% so if your skill in archery is 80% and you drink a archery potion your archery skill go up to 90% and then gradually goes down so after maybe 15-20 minutes your archery is back to 80%. And drinking a new archery potion will make your archery skill go back up to 90%.

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Lots of really good ideas in this thread, thanks everyone for the input and keeping it civil.

 

So we now know from the character progression FAQ that alchemist will be a profession. Everyone in my guild loved the info drop but we all shared the same sentiments/concerns regarding potion and consumable spam.

 

I'd love to hear ACE's view on potions and consumables and what they are thinking so far. I don't want or need a design doc, but more of a reassurance of "yea, potion and consumable spam is a known issue in current games. We have been discussing it in the office and we are creatively thinking of ways to limit it. One option is X, another option is Y. These are of course liable to change but they're our most current ideas on the subject" Or if you guys like potion and consumable spam I'd love to hear your justification. Thanks!

Edited by savage

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