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saludeen

Copy Dragons Nest combat.

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I have yet to experience better combat than Dragons Nest.  Some abilities would "overwrite" others if they were used at the same time.  Once you landed an ability it allowed you to combo the other player and lock them down until you mess up.  It was hard to lock them down 100% (which is good) but it gave you a solid lead if you were skilled.  The combat system was exciting, flashy (easy for spectators to see whats happening), and allowed the best players to shine.  Timing and anticipating your opponent was also important, and it had the perfect balance of twitch vs non twitch skill.  I encourage you to use similar combat in Crowfall, or even copy the mechanics if you want a skill based system.   

 

Here's an old video I made so you can see what I mean (warning: music has profanity, which I regret using)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGl9gUbMp8w

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I'd be content if this game had combat that took as much skill as dragon nest's combat... but I doubt it will be quite as mechanically demanding. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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While I am pretty sure that type of combat is skillful(havent played it, probably need to try it out : P), in the end I dont think it will balance very well in large scale combat, its too quick, and too much juggling/cc.

 

In a larger pvp setting slower animations, telegraphing strikes, less insta casts, all make for a better experience imo.  Should it be ESO slow?  nah, but shadowbane found a good pacing when it wasnt bugging out and de-synching(omg melee de-synch could be maddening in that game)

Edited by MadLoota

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I have to say that is some of THE WORST combat in an MMO for PvP I have ever seen.  The combo looked boring and the lockdown would be completely UNFUN.  What that video should have shown is the guy on the losing side as he stood up and went and his the restroom as he could do nothing in the fight, followed by his unsub of he game since what was the point of a completely one-sided combat scenario.

 

If you had not said this was a PvP match, I would think I was looking at some obscure 3D fighting game.

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*panic face* No, no, nonononno, please dont do this. Dont copy anything. saludeen, if you dont want to put your trust (or time) into Crowfall and their team, that is ok with me. But i really dont appreciate that everything gets copied by anybody. ACE is here to bring a NEW experience and not to copy a semi good combat sytem of a meh game.


 

I AM ME!
I love you all.

 

 

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I have to say that is some of THE WORST combat in an MMO for PvP I have ever seen.  The combo looked boring and the lockdown would be completely UNFUN.  What that video should have shown is the guy on the losing side as he stood up and went and his the restroom as he could do nothing in the fight, followed by his unsub of he game since what was the point of a completely one-sided combat scenario.

 

If you had not said this was a PvP match, I would think I was looking at some obscure 3D fighting game.

You sir, have bad taste in combat. Dragon Nest has some of the most advanced combat any MMO had ever seen, along with Tera. It requires you to have skill in order to win. The reason the other guy didn't get up is because the Cleric had skill and was able to lock him down until he was dead. I would be glad to have this type of combat in Crowfall because I'm guessing you haven't tried it, and it takes a lot of skill to fully lock down an opponent without any messups.

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There are many different kinds of skill, which can be used to overcome many different kinds of challenges. Some challenges involve mastering a specific sequence of actions which must be executed with perfect accuracy and precision. Other challenges involve outwitting an intelligent opponent who forces you to constantly change and revise your tactics in response to his.

 

Mastering a lockdown sequence is a great skill for a single-player fighting game. It's a stupid thing to base a multiplayer combat engine around because only one person is playing. Yes, there's skill involved, but it's not the kind of skill which involves overcoming an opponent's tactical maneuvers: it's purely a competition between you, your keyboard, and the flow of time.

 

I hope and trust that the Crowfall combat design philosophy includes the principle that both parties to a combat should be actively playing the game against each other, rather than one player playing the game against his own keyboard.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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You sir, have bad taste in combat. Dragon Nest has some of the most advanced combat any MMO had ever seen, along with Tera. It requires you to have skill in order to win. The reason the other guy didn't get up is because the Cleric had skill and was able to lock him down until he was dead. I would be glad to have this type of combat in Crowfall because I'm guessing you haven't tried it, and it takes a lot of skill to fully lock down an opponent without any messups.

You obviously have not been playing MMOs for a while, DAoC and WoW both had lockdown mechanics in a couple classes and those were utter B.S.  ( use them as reference that it has beeen tried for better part of two decades nothing more)  It is not about "skill" it is about following an almost macro-like set of skill chains where the mechanic itself is preventing the enemy from doing something.  A juggle is a crutch giving you safe-time to continue your combo series.

 

Thankfully, Crowfall has made ZERO indication of even considering this.

Edited by Savevsdeathmagic

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You obviously have not been playing MMOs for a while, DAoC and WoW both had lockdown mechanics in a couple classes and those were utter B.S.  It is not about "skill" it is about following an almost macro-like set of skill chains where the mechanic itself is preventing the enemy from doing something.  A juggle is crutch giving you safe-time to continue your combo series.

 

Thankfully, Crowfall has made ZERO indication of even considering this.

Now imagine aiming the abilities.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Only a moron would imagine that aiming an ability at an immobilized target is difficult, even if it was, making an unenjoyable mechanism hard doesn't make it fun.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Only a moron would imagine that aiming an ability at an immobilized target is difficult, even if it was, making an unenjoyable mechanism hard doesn't make it fun.

You sound really salty... guess what, you're going to have to aim the ability that immobilizes the target in the first place. 

 

Sounds like you don't find aim-based mechanisms fun... gee I wonder why...


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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If that were true people would be a lot better at games on average. 

I said with a mouse.  Console game controllers are a different matter.  Still an absolute terrible system for a mass combat based PvP MMO.

 

Crowfall is not a console/arcade fighting game.

 

There is a reason most games went to CC immunity and DR after trying lockdowns and stunlocks, they are just poor, unfun mechanics.

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I said with a mouse.  Console game controllers are a different matter.  Still an absolute terrible system for a mass combat based PvP MMO.

 

Crowfall is not a console/arcade fighting game.

 

There is a reason most games went to CC immunity and DR after trying lockdowns and stunlocks, they are just poor, unfun mechanics.

They went to it because it's a gimmicky way to create "depth" based on cc and counters and counters to that and counters to that. 

 

I've seem some games use action combat for mass pvp combat... seems to work out fine, if the game does it well.

 

There's nothing inherently wrong with aiming your abilities, no matter how many players are involved... there may be something wrong with how many games attempt to build their game though. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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You sound really salty... guess what, you're going to have to aim the ability that immobilizes the target in the first place.

 

Sounds like you don't find aim-based mechanisms fun... gee I wonder why...

Wow, unable to realize why it's easy to aim at something that can't move... Incredible.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Dragons Nests' combat is good for what it is. I do not believe it is the holy grail of pvp combat however and seriously doubt it'll translate well to CF.

I certainly believe CF could take some lessons from it, I like how some of the moves feel meaty and all and some of the animations are nice: But one has to remember CF is a vastly different game.

 

 

The one thing we must not forget, is that battles in CF are most likely to be battles between groups: The dangers in the world (an ever more powerfull hunger) and primaraly the potential to run into groups of hostile players, will mean players will want to venture out in groups where they can (with the exception of possibly scouts etc.)

 

This means combat will need to be designed around a larger group mechanic: Where the combat of Dragons Nest looks awesome in smaller settings, I cannot imagine it working in battles involving 40+ players, nevermind 100+ or sieges. 

Just look at DN battles where there are just 6 players involved on either side: It becomes a mess of spell-effects and players being all over the place. Cool for what it is, not so much for what CF looks to be trying to do.

 

Only thing DN and CF seem to have in common, is that combat won't be auto-lockon or hotkey based, other then that: I'd say we should reserve judgement for when we see the combat Alpha. 


~Strategy is the art of making use of time and space.
I'm less concerned about the latter than the former: Space we can recover, lost time never.

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