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siberain

Anyone believe the " Premium Guild " Package is overly priced?

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I think so too, because they're expecting to be a niche product, but like all things that involve money...if you can make more of it, doing something you know how to do, why not?

 

If the problem is demand vs what they can handle, they can gate it with the iron throne mechanic and make winners the only customers allowed to access the feature.

 

Still gotta pay the "review" "Implementation" fees, BOOM.

 

Honestly though, its only going to be a thing if they want it to be a thing. Its a problem thats got a solution, just gotta want to solve it.

Edited by Zomnivore

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Why is it so pricy?  It starts with us having to look at every single incoming guild crest and make sure it isn't obscene or out of character with the game world (I guess that will be 15%+ of submissions), then ensure it doesn't violate any intellectual property (and that process won't always work, we don't know every IP holder in the world).   When an IP holder calls us about the fact you have the equivalent of Micky Mouse on your crest, we'll have to investigate and possibly pull it down (or radically modify it) if they are right.  Then we've got to make the guild crest part of the game build itself, since all the rest of the people in-world will see your guild crest.  We'll probably need to have an artist work on it so that it can work right in the game world and dialog with you about that process.

 

Todd and I say; PLEASE DON'T BUY THIS!  It's a pain for us, but we know some people will have to have it so we added it to the higher level rewards.

 

Thank you!

 

If someone violates an IP you should make it so you gusy reserve the right to change the crest to what ever you want.. like a picture of a pickle or something amusing like that.


OQa1xvz.png?1

lol ok.. I wonder if I'll still be able to steal directly from people's inventories.. hrmmm

;)Twitch - Twitter

RIP DOC GONZO

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If someone violates an IP you should make it so you gusy reserve the right to change the crest to what ever you want.. like a picture of a pickle or something amusing like that.

 

25252554-Illustration-of-a-funny-cartoon


> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

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P2stylebane are all the rage these days... That being said isn't it possible to build an image importing pipeline into the build, require the guilds to submit their image in the proper format and then all you have to do is approve it for vulgarity and intellectual property instead of the handing it over to an artist... Seems like something that would be a little more work on the front end but save you so much labor on the back end...


"He's like Batman except without the moral compass" ~Juror during first innocent verdict 

 

Ghost's of War, PvP gaming community founded 2002

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I have no opinion either way tbh.

ACE are free to price their stuff the way they want.. If people buy it, its not too expensive.

 

People have that opinion of day 1 DLC on websites of developers who's publishers feel that Day-1 DLC is either ethically appropriate or they don't care and decide to state on forums that they don't care.  Unfortunately the people in charge pay attention to that sometimes ...

 

People speak with their wallet and have their own various ideas of what they consider is reasonable marketing, you lose customer confidence if you conduct yourself in business practices and pricing practices where the majority unanimously feel their being ripped off or screwed.  Plain and simple, to listen to the few people on forums who say "I don't have a problem with this" is utter madness.  That is what causes businesses to fail, listening to the minority, that and having people in charge who are stubborn and ignore advice.  Those are the two biggest mistakes ...

 

When people feel something is overpriced, then a developer or in particular whoever is in charge of their marketing and the pricing of products or content sales needs to take heed and in turn take a good look at how many sales they make, if they make a lot of sales, then it means people don't have a problem with the price, if they make few sales, it means people either don't care for it or they do have a problem with the price.

 

The other problem is we live in a culture which promotes openly the notion of giving feedback and also telling companies their unsatisfied yet most people don't, they either simply state "I don't like this price, I won't buy it" and then tell the company in question nothing.  Companies need to actively seek out the customer and ask them because they can't be bothered.

 

What companies need to do is encourage customers to voice their opinions and concerns so that they actually do voice them.

 

That way we get more than just 3 pages of posts on a forum about people being dissatisfied about prices of things.

 

As far as customer service goes, what I've seen from ACE is exemplary compared to the garbage I've had to deal with from the likes of some other companies who make MMOs, for the sake of not braking the forum rules I won't point out their names. 


My hubris is the size of a 2 by 4 nailed to the side of a YF-12 jet barrel rolling into a volcano piloted by a Tyrannosaurus Rex.

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Now for myself, a retired vet with fixed pension the cost is completely out of the question, even if it were 'only' 2 or 3 hundred. However, the fact remains that 'real' historical heraldry is a compilation of 'templates' that rulesets control selection, acceptance and placement. The basic ruleset for heraldry is non-duplication. Unique. So I have no problem with preset templates. The 'items' (colors, things) combinations and placement are important. Since the basic shield (men) and rondel (women) shapes are divided into four 'cantons', or sections, then an extremely large variety can be created from the basic templates. Only requirement would be insuring each final design from templates is unique. Not that difficult. BTW - heraldry also has a specific 'language' to give a physical description of a coat-of-arms so that someone can write it out and then draw it from that description.

 

Example: Sable and Argent, a Lion Dormant Or, 3rd a Sword inverted Gules, 4th a Key Fesswise of the first. Altho not a herald this is a simple description that says - A shield as seen from the front divided into two colors top then bottom (Black and white). On top (black) is set an heraldic sleeping lion in gold (Or). Below this the background color is white. In the lower left hand section (canton 3) there is a sword, point down in red (Gules) and on the lower right section (canton 4) is a key, seen from the side and in the same color as the first color shown (black).

 

As you can see, the first line of the paragraph gives a full description of the structure, contents and colors of a coat-of-arms. A medieval copyist can easily draw and illuminate those arms from that first line alone. There are also various helmeted crests above a coat-of-arms as well a lower banner ribbons usually carrying wording.

 

What all this means is that standard templates, especially for a fantasy game world can produce enormous varieties of unique coats-of-arms for anyone or any group. A free or modest fee (for us poorer folk) using the standard templates. Specialty designs can be sent to company for a more expensive fee. Thus all of us, poor or well off, can play. My apology to those with heraldic training for errors in the heraldic line above. I am not a trained herald.

Edited by Farblue

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Its very expensive, but I think it should be expensive, otherwise every 1-10 man subguild would have its custom banner and that would be much much more work for ACE.

 

 

 

If quality is a concern, there could be strict rules and player QA/vetting (ex: PotBS). "Otherwise every 1-10 man subguild would have it" isn't really an issue because if that is the concern, it can easily be gated behind duration/roster qualifications (ex: EVE Online alliance logos).

 

What was the negative impact on games the currently offer this to one degree or another (ex: Lineage 2, Aion, ArcheAge) to the entirety, or at least majority, of their guilded players? I'm interested in the reasoning behind why you feel it should be expensive, especially to the tune of $700 per crest.

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Also think of it this way, at $700, their not exactly expecting one person to pay $700 for a custom Heraldry, I think it's a "barrier" so that only people who are serious about their guilds will buy it as a collaboratory effort.  

 

As in a guild of 30 people will donate $23 each towards it.

A guild of 45 people will donate $17.50 each towards it.

A guild of 70 people will donate $10 each towards it.

A guild of 140 people will donate $5 each towards it

 

In other words, everyone in the guild will each individually pay what some would consider a reasonable price towards what is a giant demanding price.

 

I don't think ACE's intention is to make it "holy crap this is overpriced", but to bar people from abusing the service and restrict it to actual guilds by placing a price barrier, problem is such actions are very risky and dangerous and they could be negatively judged by doing so.  But I see their logic in it.

 

Ultimately there are better solutions.  Such as buc denizen suggested above.

 

Here is the strict requirements of EVE Online for Alliance Logos.

 

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/alliance-logos-you-submissions-re-opened/

 

A summery:

 

  • The logo must comply to the style and in theme with the colour scheme of the game, the look of the game, the style of the font used by the races and corporations in the game and the lore of the game.
  • Can only be submitted by the C.E.O of the entire alliance, all other submissions are automatically ignored by spam filters (CCP keeps tabs on alliance executives as they only number in the hundreds compared to the thousands of other players), anyone can be a CEO of a corporation, but not anyone can be a CEO of an alliance, it has requirements!
  • Alliance must be at least 6 months old before it can submit a logo.
  • Long and complex submission process, which requires it be be sent from the e-mail address associated with the alliance CEO in his account settings and also requires them to fill out a document including details and information about the character and their alliance.  This also means the developer will have the person's details on record, meaning that if they did something stupid, it means they will get in trouble for it. :P
  • Copyrighted material can not be submitted for logos.
  • Any logo submitted will be edited by the developers and given a watermark, in other words the edited version is now copyright of CCP.
  • Any logo submitted must not violate any laws or offend anyone by the imagery depicted or suggested in it.
  • Style, Size and Image Type Restrictions

My hubris is the size of a 2 by 4 nailed to the side of a YF-12 jet barrel rolling into a volcano piloted by a Tyrannosaurus Rex.

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For the price I think it is way to overpriced for what a guild gets. Making the game use a custom logo for your guild isn't something all that hard to implement and a lot of others games offer it for free and can easly be the same for Crowfall. Before anyone can submit a logo ACE needs to have some rules or standard in place for what you can and can't have as a guild logo and settings of what the file must be before you submit it. For instance lets say the guild logo file must be a 24bit .bmp or a 32bit .tga and no bigger that 256x256 pixels and then for the style of the logo they can say it must look like X or be in X style before sumbiting, CCP (Eve Online) logo submission comes to mind. When the guild sumbits a logo an automatic system can be in place to read the file and say "Hey that isn't a 24bit .bmp or 32bit .tga and/or bigger than 256x256 pixels. Come back again once fixed." and then once the file is submited it should take no longer than 5mins for someone on the dev team or support team to approve the logo once they see it and if it doesn't follow the style ACE is looking for they can just say "Doesn't follow our style we want."

 

 

Ace wants more control on the artwork for CF.  ArcheAge didn't care what images players used.  Custom heraldry allows your guild stand out uniquely from the standard symbol selection.

 

FYI, everyone will have a small selection of symbols and colors, and they're going to add more symbols and color packs in the store.

 

Like others mentioned, it's not difficult for larger guilds to split the cost among their members.  Larger, more established guilds, will already have custom logos for their guilds that they use in all of the games they play.

 

They can have control over what players use as their guild logos, they just need to have rules in place before a guild submits on how the logo should look and feel and not just say "Hey submit whatever you like and we'll get around to looking at it." Doing it that way would be a total waste of time.

 

Why is it so pricy?  It starts with us having to look at every single incoming guild crest and make sure it isn't obscene or out of character with the game world (I guess that will be 15%+ of submissions), then ensure it doesn't violate any intellectual property (and that process won't always work, we don't know every IP holder in the world).   When an IP holder calls us about the fact you have the equivalent of Micky Mouse on your crest, we'll have to investigate and possibly pull it down (or radically modify it) if they are right.  Then we've got to make the guild crest part of the game build itself, since all the rest of the people in-world will see your guild crest.  We'll probably need to have an artist work on it so that it can work right in the game world and dialog with you about that process.

 

Todd and I say; PLEASE DON'T BUY THIS!  It's a pain for us, but we know some people will have to have it so we added it to the higher level rewards.

 

Thank you!

 

If you have rules and standard in place before hand for how a guild crest should look and someone sumbits something that isn't what you want or like you deny it and that shouldn't take longer than 5mins. If an IP holder gets a hold of you and says that X cest is using their IP for their cest, you pull it down and make that guild themselves modify it themselves and not waste your own time trying to modify it.

 

You don't have to make the crest part of the build itself, doing it that way would be a waste of time for everyone because now they have to update their clients. You could easly make it so that when a player sees a guild they havn't seen before and have their games download the cest from a server and saves it to a cache folder and whenever that player sees that guild again the game looks into the cache folder to see if it has that cest and if it does it uses it. This makes it so that players never have to update their client just for new guild cests that were added into the game because the cests are dynamically downloaded when the player sees a new cest they never seen.

 

Why are you going to waste the time of the artist with them trying make some randoms guilds cest to work in the game? You could save so much time for everyone if you just had a standard in place before hand, telling guilds what type of file their cest has to be and now big it can be. Once that is in place you could build a automatic system that would deny any submissions that don't meet the requirements. After the cest is approved and because you have a standard you only have one get the cest working once and every other cest after that would be the same.

 

 

no offense taken.  those games probably have 10x our budget.

 

Todd

ACE

 

Really budget has nothing to do with it and all that really matters is how you use your time and money given to you. There have been many times where something is given a $100M budget and be crap and then it be redone for a lot less and work perfect. Again money does play a role, but it is how you use it that matters.

 

P2stylebane are all the rage these days... That being said isn't it possible to build an image importing pipeline into the build, require the guilds to submit their image in the proper format and then all you have to do is approve it for vulgarity and intellectual property instead of the handing it over to an artist... Seems like something that would be a little more work on the front end but save you so much labor on the back end...

 

Bulding a pipeline for an automated system would be the best thing to do for guild cest submissions, it would save a lot of wasted time.

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I remembered that Eve Online does the same thing, or use to. The alliance is required to submit an image in a specific size and dimensions. The alliance head had to pay a certain amount or in PLEX. CCP would add/change it so it would be metallic or other properties then would add it to a patch.

 

I don't believe that ACE should be responsible for checking if every image is a trademark, IP or otherwise. If someone sees an item that is their property then they could contact ACE to get it removed. I believe this is why other games are letting the user upload their own image. I'm not a lawyer, obviously.


etDenA9.png
Camaraderie ~ Loyalty ~ Honor ~ Maturity ~ Integrity ~ Duty

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I remembered that Eve Online does the same thing, or use to. The alliance is required to submit an image in a specific size and dimensions. The alliance head had to pay a certain amount or in PLEX. CCP would add/change it so it would be metallic or other properties then would add it to a patch.

 

I don't believe that ACE should be responsible for checking if every image is a trademark, IP or otherwise. If someone sees an item that is their property then they could contact ACE to get it removed. I believe this is why other games are letting the user upload their own image. I'm not a lawyer, obviously.

 

 

That depends on the company, some companies send a polite E-mail stating "this image is violating our copyright, we hold you responsible because it is in or on a product you are selling, please remove it."

 

While others run to their solicitor screaming "THEY STOLE MY poorly made socks!"  Because some companies tend to be gun-ho with their copyright infringement observations, I can think of a few, a couple of notable examples, Games Workshop and Harmony Gold comes to mind under the category of what I'd call "Red Flag" companies, or known companies notorious for legally going after you given the smallest reason to, but pretty sure everyone in the entertainment and toys industries are well aware of companies who do this. :P

Edited by Psyctooth

My hubris is the size of a 2 by 4 nailed to the side of a YF-12 jet barrel rolling into a volcano piloted by a Tyrannosaurus Rex.

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Now for myself, a retired vet with fixed pension the cost is completely out of the question, even if it were 'only' 2 or 3 hundred. However, the fact remains that 'real' historical heraldry is a compilation of 'templates' that rulesets control selection, acceptance and placement. The basic ruleset for heraldry is non-duplication. Unique. So I have no problem with preset templates. The 'items' (colors, things) combinations and placement are important. Since the basic shield (men) and rondel (women) shapes are divided into four 'cantons', or sections, then an extremely large variety can be created from the basic templates. Only requirement would be insuring each final design from templates is unique. Not that difficult. BTW - heraldry also has a specific 'language' to give a physical description of a coat-of-arms so that someone can write it out and then draw it from that description.

 

Example: Sable and Argent, a Lion Dormant Or, 3rd a Sword inverted Gules, 4th a Key Fesswise of the first. Altho not a herald this is a simple description that says - A shield as seen from the front divided into two colors top then bottom (Black and white). On top (black) is set an heraldic sleeping lion in gold (Or). Below this the background color is white. In the lower left hand section (canton 3) there is a sword, point down in red (Gules) and on the lower right section (canton 4) is a key, seen from the side and in the same color as the first color shown (black).

 

As you can see, the first line of the paragraph gives a full description of the structure, contents and colors of a coat-of-arms. A medieval copyist can easily draw and illuminate those arms from that first line alone. There are also various helmeted crests above a coat-of-arms as well a lower banner ribbons usually carrying wording.

 

What all this means is that standard templates, especially for a fantasy game world can produce enormous varieties of unique coats-of-arms for anyone or any group. A free or modest fee (for us poorer folk) using the standard templates. Specialty designs can be sent to company for a more expensive fee. Thus all of us, poor or well off, can play. My apology to those with heraldic training for errors in the heraldic line above. I am not a trained herald.

 

Great post.  The standard tool sets we'll provide will allow people to make an incredible number of unique crests and the expanded symbols and colors just make that even more diverse.  The custom option is there for people who (1) are willing to pay to have their art in the Crowfall client for all to see and (2) absolutely want something the heraldry maker could not generate.


Gordon Walton, ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.  [Rules of Conduct]

Follow us on Twitter @CrowfallGame | Like us on Facebook

 

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Great post.  The standard tool sets we'll provide will allow people to make an incredible number of unique crests and the expanded symbols and colors just make that even more diverse.  The custom option is there for people who (1) are willing to pay to have their art in the Crowfall client for all to see and (2) absolutely want something the heraldry maker could not generate.

 

 

Talking about the Heraldry maker; if by chance anyone submits a design to you for the cost of the $700 to $800 which could be duplicated by the free to use Heraldry creation system in game, would you refund them?  Considering you haven't released a gallery set of what would be included in the various design combinations people could use, because aside from the royalty free stock of Heraldry I'm sure you guys plan to include by default, I assume you'll also include designs of your own which you would have to go though the process of copyrighting, something which is a bit of a foreign thing to me since in Australia anything we make which is original is automatically copyrighted. :P  (BTW when accepting designs from overseas, some countries like Australia, yeah anything we make we own by default, so have to take those sorts of things into consideration, even if we ourselves don't tell you.)

 

 

On the subject of Heraldry, do you have any plans to include the "Attitude" of Animals, Birds, Beasts, Creatures and Humans are presented?

 

For example:  Rampant, Passant, Sejant, Couchant, Courant, Dormant, Salient and Statant?

 

These various attitudes have a message in them of themselves, which usually confide to a House, Kingdom, Guild or State's 'attitude' towards outsides or how they wish others to view their attitude as.  Such as "We are defensive", "We are aggressive", "We are passive."

 

Also and this is something I don't see in a lot of games which do have Heraldry design systems, would there be the possibility to have multiple examples of the single Charge on the Heraldry?  Some Coats of Arm have examples of 3 animals on them in a row or in different positions, or up to 4.  While others are more intricate having a different Charges or a combination of several heraldrys.  An example of this would be House Windsor, the current ruling family of the United Kingdom.  Although I'd assume in a situation where someone would wish for a complex Heraldry design, it would likely be a Guild.

 

For example, with the base creation tools, I'd like someone to be able to make something like this:

 

105px-Fillet_cross_port_alfred_wiki.jpg

Or This:

100px-Blason_de_la_ville_de_Trets_%2813%

Edited by Psyctooth

My hubris is the size of a 2 by 4 nailed to the side of a YF-12 jet barrel rolling into a volcano piloted by a Tyrannosaurus Rex.

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...For example, with the base creation tools, I'd like someone to be able to make something like this:

105px-Fillet_cross_port_alfred_wiki.jpg

Or This:

100px-Blason_de_la_ville_de_Trets_%2813%

 

If these were your custom herald submissions, they'd both get rejected because they're both too detailed.  The bottom, when sized down will appear like 3 green dots.  The top one would appear like a blob of a few colors.

 

The heralds won't be that detailed.

 

This is why there is a high cost to custom heralds, because if was cheaper, it would be a mess and Ace would be taking a loss with most submissions.  By having a high price, it keeps demand low... and the game size smaller.


> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

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Great post.  The standard tool sets we'll provide will allow people to make an incredible number of unique crests and the expanded symbols and colors just make that even more diverse.  The custom option is there for people who (1) are willing to pay to have their art in the Crowfall client for all to see and (2) absolutely want something the heraldry maker could not g

So the perc is actually to design a custom guild crest that will appear as a premade in game? I suspected that was the case but was unsure if I had the wrong impression from your last post on the work of implementing the art.

Edited by KRIPTIK

KRIPTIKserratedv3_zps4ptlmh6o.gif

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herald <> heraldry

 

A herald is the dude who announces who's who by blazoning their heraldry.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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Depends. 

 

If you look at it from the point of view of a single person shouldering the burden - yes it is very expensive compared to the benefit you would get from putting the same resources into say a Sapphire and a Bronze pledge packages for a friend.

 

If you look at it from the point of view of a long-standing gaming community with an established brand / image that is important to maintain, a custom logo becomes a rather important consideration.  And that $700 price tag can be distributed among a wider audience of supporters.  The concern then is less about the cost (hey, we all want to support ACE as much as possible) and more about giving us the tools to be able to address our priorities.  I believe the majority of my guild mates would agree that we would rather play under our own banner than get a bunch of physical Collectors Editions that will be gathering dust on bookshelves.

 

Totally agree with you, this is something that your guild should pay for as a guild- therefore really not that overpriced. If a small 35 person guild requests donations of 20 bucks a person this is easily achieved.

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If these were your custom herald submissions, they'd both get rejected because they're both too detailed.  The bottom, when sized down will appear like 3 green dots.  The top one would appear like a blob of a few colors.

 

The heralds won't be that detailed.

 

This is why there is a high cost to custom heralds, because if was cheaper, it would be a mess and Ace would be taking a loss with most submissions.  By having a high price, it keeps demand low... and the game size smaller.

 

You do know most Charges are already in existence as large royalty free stock imagery.

 

Also I've done logo design in the past as I used to be a Logo Designer when I was younger, I'm telling you right now, it is not an expensive process to take a large single standardized image such as a charge then shrink that single image down, it however is an expensive process to do the reverse unless you are using a vector image.  I am fairly sure if they have in game Heraldry creation tools, they will be built from and using a series of stock sized variations of the same Charges in different combinations, likely a Large Version, a Medium Version and a Small Version all built from the one stock large image.  

 

Yes there are high costs involved in custom Heraldry, but not so when you're using stock images used in an automated creation system built around placement of multiple layers of images.  If you can code a layer and grid system for images and change the colour,  you can code a tool to make a custom Heraldry.  All it would take is writing a framework to do it, which is about a week's worth of work for one experienced programmer from scratch, a couple of days worth of work using existing Libraries.


My hubris is the size of a 2 by 4 nailed to the side of a YF-12 jet barrel rolling into a volcano piloted by a Tyrannosaurus Rex.

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Admittedly we've done a poor job explaining the difference between what every guild gets access to, and the purchased package: 

 

Every guild: Gets access to a heraldry creator, like you've seen in other games. This allows you to pick symbols and colors, and form your own customized look. 

Certain packages we sold in Kickstarter grants access to an expanded set of symbols and colors to allow even deeper amount of customization. 

 

The Unique heraldry submission is for those of you who have truly special desires for their logos that our heraldry creator can't accommodate.

 

The process will likely be:

 

  • You'll submit something to us.
  • Blair, myself or someone else at ArtCraft will take a look to see if it infringes on anything and is suitable for our audience.
  • Then we send it off to Art Department for them to make their pass over it so that it suits our art-style.
  • THEN it comes back to design and we'll implement and assign the piece to the guild. 

 

Making an infringement mistake here is a big risk, if one of us accidentally allow a guild to use copyrighted material in the game, we open ourselves up for a lawsuit. 

 

 

As Todd & Gordon have said, we actually prefer if people didn't buy this but we understand there is an audience out there who feel very strongly about using their pre-existing guild imagery. 

 

Assigning a the price we have does two things: 1) it mitigates the development resources we allocate and 2) hopefully reduces the chance of those who purchase and submit copyrighted material. 


Tully Ackland

ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc. 

Follow us on Twitter @CrowfallGame | Like us on Facebook

[Rules of Conduct]

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Admittedly we've done a poor job explaining the difference between what every guild gets access to, and the purchased package..............

 

In a nutshell, you gotta pay the big bucks to look good.  On a side note, you can also look at it this way: Right now it only costs $700 for you to show your privates to Blair or Tully with a random chance it being another member of the ACE staff! Pretty good deal if you ask me. :)

Edited by thenebrosity

OQa1xvz.png?1

lol ok.. I wonder if I'll still be able to steal directly from people's inventories.. hrmmm

;)Twitch - Twitter

RIP DOC GONZO

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