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Armor for All: From rule to choice - Official discussion thread

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So much love for this update. Was something that was weighing in the back of my mind, how much I hate vertical progression. The horizontal progression is soooooooo much better, actually accounts for the armor involved and what it's weak and strong to, while still allowing players to account for visual cues to factor in and prioritize.

 

Now the question is: how will weapons work? Will weapons have their own abilities that account for the damage types? And will we be able to customize this to fit our playstyle? For example: Let's say that weapons work akin to GW2 and fills in the first 3 hotbar slots. I have distributed my stats so that I deal high piercing damage, but weak slashing damage. Can I customize my weapons moveset so that I can equip 3 piercing attacks, thus maximize my damage?

 

Or will weapons come with their own prescribed moveset or can I change them? For example, let's say a regular short sword has 2 slashing attacks (a horizontal slash and an uppercut slash) and 1 piercing attack (a forward thrust) when equipped by a warrior. Meanwhile, a rapier has 2 piercing attacks (a strong thrust and a parrying lunge) and 1 slash attack (a flurry of slashes), again, when equipped by the same warrior. And if the warrior should equip a bastard sword he'd get a slash attack (wide sweep), 1 piercing attack (a forward lunge), and 1 crushing attack (hilt bash to the chest). Using my warrior from before, the best weapon for him would be the rapier, as this gives me the most bang for my buck when CD's are considered.

 

Of the 2, I'd like to see the second option, as I like the idea of weapon and armor choice determining how you approach combat and customization. It reminds me a lot of dark souls approach to customization and allows a degree of visual cues and strategy. Though I have to question if all characters would treat the same weapon the same way; is a frostweaver going to treat a rapier the same way as a confessor with the same abilities? Are there going to be race and archetype restrictions (it'd be pretty awkward to see a frostweaver use the duelist's pistol) and how is this going to impact animation costs (my guess is a lot)? And how much will the differences in weapons be (will a spear work a lot like a halberd? Will weapons "share" abilities?)? And of course: weapon swapping?? Needless to say, I look forward to the article addressing hit boxes, weapons, and abilities.

Edited by RKNM

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I am scared that we'll all be running around with 10 different armor sets in our inventory and having to constantly swap in/out pieces depending on what enemies we are facing.

 

If it ends up just being "well, we know that group runs with a lot of X damage dealers, everyone put on your X resist gear" then that's really not "having a choice" at all.

After you see me your inventory will be empty.....problem solved ;) Thief's at the ready!

Edited by KRIPTIK

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I'm more worried about the extra strain on the game servers with all these calculations. I want lag free massive battles, the more "stuff" we add (even if cool) hurts performance

Yea I like aim based stuff, just curious what their vision is for it... for me... if this game starts making you aim for certain parts of the body over others... it increases in awesomeness many fold. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I can see "elite PVPs" or people with money to blow doing that.

 

Unless movement speed is positively affected by lighter armor, then everyone may carry a set of "running" armor and "fighting" armor (cloth and plate).

just make the armor swap take 30 sec


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Carrying multiple suits of armor is pretty ridiculous in terms of realism.

Yeah, don't want to break my Centaur, fairy women, or Blair Physx immersion.


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Still I think switching armor should take ~1-2 seconds (for each piece).

I personally don't think we should be able to change armor mid fight. Weapons make sense because you could easily carry multiple weapons but armor takes time to change out of/into.

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Yeah, don't want to break my Centaur, fairy women, or Blair Physx immersion.

 

I'm not a realism fanatic, but I also think there is a place for considering realism, even with fantasy games.

 

If I thought carrying multiple suits of armor around and swapping them on the fly would be fun, I wouldn't advocate against it based on realism alone.  I don't think it would be fun, though.  That it seems ridiculous, in terms of realism, is just part of my objection to it.


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I'm not a realism fanatic, but I also think there is a place for considering realism, even with fantasy games.

 

If I thought carrying multiple suits of armor around and swapping them on the fly would be fun, I wouldn't advocate against it based on realism alone.  I don't think it would be fun, though.  That it seems ridiculous, in terms of realism, is just part of my objection to it.

Put saddlebags on your centaur and load it with armor. How are they supposed to dress themselves anyways? Maybe you can be my squire and fit me in my pants, for realism sakes. I'm not being subjective at all.


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What about a costume system?  In SWTOR you can equip the armor and stats you like, then apply a 'costume' to each slot.  So even though you may be a tank, you can look like you're running around in your undies, or whatever you'd like to look like.  It adds an even greater level of character customization.

Not sure I would want this. In Dark Souls, you were often able to tell what the opponent was going to do based on the gear they had equipped. If they had cloth, odds are they were going to use magic, if they were big and bulky, they probably had gone tank. If you do the same here, it's going to complete throw the system out the window, as players won't be able to recognize what they're up against.

 

That said, cosmetics are a big part of a game and is really important to players. Cultivating a certain look helps players notoriety and aids the community in creating signature looks and appearances, or just looking the way they want to look. Maybe they only allow cosmetics to correspond to certain classes of armor. for example, if someone wants to make a ranger resemble tarzan or robin hood, they can only apply a leather cosmetic to leather gear. This does limit the cosmetics options of players, but it does keep the game competitive and fair.

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Those kinds of things are always dangerous. Sure, it would be nice to give people the ability to look like whatever they want, but at the same time you'd take away literally all information that people can instantly gather from seeing the real armor pieces.

 

In a lot of older games where there were no costumes/transmog/etc. it was often really easy to tell exactly what you could expect from a fight with "that/those guy/guys over there" because you recognized his/their armor/class. With costumes/transmog/etc. you lose all of that quickly gathered information and you literally go blind into fights(except for maybe knowing what class they are playing, by looking at your UI).

 

Uh part of the point of a costume system is to get rid of the visual information.  This is pvp based, not pve.  If you're going to assume everything about me or any other human controlled player based on the way we look, that's your problem.  And I don't think you'll get too confused looking at my centaur.

 

A costume system lets us look the way we want but play the way we want.  This change is trying to address that to some extent, but it could be opened up a lot more.

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Not sure I would want this. In Dark Souls, you were often able to tell what the opponent was going to do based on the gear they had equipped. If they had cloth, odds are they were going to use magic, if they were big and bulky, they probably had gone tank. If you do the same here, it's going to complete throw the system out the window, as players won't be able to recognize what they're up against.

 

You were doing something wrong... it's called Fashion Souls for a reason

Edited by freeze

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No.

 

You need to be able to identify what you're facing via looks, and running around in your undies is stupid.

 

Sorry, maybe you do, but a lot of us don't.  In pve, sure it helps, but the point of this game is to let skill and thought really shine.  And the undies part was just an example of the breadth a costume system gives, good grief.

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Uh part of the point of a costume system is to get rid of the visual information.

 

We get that, we just disagree on whether "getting rid of visual information" is a desirable design goal. You can't make interesting tactical decisions without information to base them on, and games where the outcomes are determined by interesting tactical decisions are much more fun than games where outcomes are determined by guessing games.


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"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

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I like the general theme. Very reminiscent of DAoC's similar system.

 

I'm hoping that this table is just a "for example" and not "these are the actual resists":

 

Type         Plate Chain Leather Cloth

Slashing strong neutral neutral neutral

Crushing weak strong    weak   neutral

Piercing neutral weak   strong  neutral

 

Because that table is jacked up in several ways: it's neither logical/realistic, nor balanced. It should be more like this:

 

Type         Plate Chain Leather Cloth

Slashing  weak   strong neutral  neutral

Crushing strong neutral weak   neutral

Piercing neutral  weak  strong  neutral

 

(Further edit: if "strong" means "strong resistance to this attack" and not "strong attack vs this armor type" then your chart is closer to logical, but still not balanced)

 

I agree with you on the balancing part of the chart here. I was reading it as 'the armor is _____ against this type of damage', so their chart is close, but if I look at it from a weapon perspective I would want to do either crushing or piercing but never slashing, because none of the armors were weak against slashing.

 

I'd mostly change up Leather, like so:

 

Type         Plate Chain Leather Cloth

Slashing strong neutral weak neutral

Crushing weak strong   neutral neutral

Piercing neutral weak   strong  neutral

 

Though it's still a little weird to me to have leather be strong against piercing. Maybe not though! Either way, each damage type is then strong and weak against one type of armor.

 

Also, I assume armors at some point would have resistances to other types of damages built in. But I would think that is not a base characteristic of the armor, which makes sense because they're good against the physical types of damage. This certain does put more thought into the types of gear you'd want to pick out!

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What about captured souls? Will we be able to augment the armor even more using the "soul crystals" mentioned a while ago? This would create even more niche gear and make looted bodies even more valuable. Cant find the OP/post that mentioned capturing souls :(


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Yes, you can imbue thralls into your armor for extra effects.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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Great update! I love the additional details. Your modelling works have always been great too. Adding disadvantage and advantage is a great idea. I support this. It should work especially well in campaigns and everyone will have a chance of finding someone they are weak against. This also gives the player more freedom in choosing their style since there is advantage and disadvantage to any type of clothing.


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In my book, tables should be more like this :

 

Type           Plate    Chain     Leather    Cloth

Slashing    strong    neutral    weak        weak

Crushing   weak      strong     neutral     weak

Piercing    neutral    weak      strong       weak

 

Cloth being all neutral makes it too powerful in my opinion if you add great bonus with speed, magic power or casting speed and stealth. All clothing on weak resistance make it more realistic and balanced if you add the bonus.

Edited by LeWiSS

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Yes, you can imbue thralls into your armor for extra effects.

 

Do each thrall have a name? Can I runeword them for bonus effects? I just want a piece of armour that on hit, 1% chance to summon goatlord.

 

 

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