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Armor for All: From rule to choice - Official discussion thread

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I posted this earlier, but it feels like a good time to mention this again:

 

<The TLD read version:  Heavy armor should protect you better by decreasing the damage you take when hit and decreasing your chances of taking a crit.  The trade off should be restricting your movement and your set of moves>

 

 

Back before there was dirt, my favorite role playing rule set was Arms Law by Iron Crown Enterprises.

 

I think that the rules system did a great job with the core combat modules, particularly the way that weapon, armor, and critical hits interacted.

 

The core idea of the system is the following:  The more armor you wear, the more often you get hit, but the less damage that you'll take from an attack.

Equally significant, the more armor that you wear, the less likely it is that you take a critical, and the less severe those crits tend to be.

 

Players had lots of hitpoints, so you could take a lot of damage during a long fight.  Normally, you'd get killed by either a big crit or the culmination of a lot of bleed effects.

 

Choice of weapons also mattered a lot.  If you were fighting against a knight, wearing full plate armor you wanted to be using a war hammer, a two handed mattock, or some such.  If you were to wield a nice quick dagger you'd score all sorts of hits, but unless you got really lucky with a crit, you'd never land a killing blow. 

 

Conversely, If you were fighting an elf who was wearing light leather, that same two handed mattock would be too slow and clumsy to land a hit.  If you ever DID get lucky and landed a hit, that elf would go splat but you'ddo better with a dagger or a rapier or some such.

 

I'd love to see these same sorts of dynamics work their way into Crowfall.

 

The more armor that you wear, the slower you move and (potentially) the more limited your set of actions.

In a similar vein, choice of weapon should effect the speed of your various attacks.

 

Race might also impact these dynamics, where larger races are inherently slower but take less of a penalty from wearing heavy armor and have less penalty wielding heavy weapons.  There "should" be some kind of interplay between the choice of race and the set of "moves" that are available to a given class where choice of an extreme (be it a race, a type of armor, or a weapon) should impose constraints.

 

(This also provides some interesting options for weapons and armor enchants.  Imagine plate armor with less of an encumbrance penalty that could be worn by fae without gimping their move set or a perfectly balanced maul that would permit the use of an otherwise inplausible attack)

I remember using Rolemaster Ruleset with MERP back when. Good times

 

Who knows maybe some of it will be implemented here.


"To a New Yorker like you, a hero is some type of weird sandwich, not some nut who takes on three Tigers".

On 6/9/2015 at 3:44 PM, Tyrant said:

 

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I think this is a good direction, as it makes characters far more complex and niche. Can never have too much niche.

 

The update basically makes crafters more sought after in the CWs. Before I could just pick up any plate armour and I would progress as long as it was a higher tier than my own, now it's like reaching into a lottery bag. If I loot someone's plate and they have a different set of statistics than what I need, even though it's progressed in levels it makes me either A) weigh the benefits of each and choose or B ) Find a crafter.

 

I really hope they go with a randomized system of statistics like Diablo when crafting and looting. Regardless, it'll still be funny to put leather armour I looted off a tiny fae on my swole champion.

Armor types / Amor pieces /  13+ Archetypes / Promotion classes / Disciplines / Play styles

 

So many possibilities, a crafter could find a nice niche for himself.

 

Nice update and maybe a great change.

Edited by Otto

"To a New Yorker like you, a hero is some type of weird sandwich, not some nut who takes on three Tigers".

On 6/9/2015 at 3:44 PM, Tyrant said:

 

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Armor types / Amor pieces /  13+ Archetypes / Promotion classes / Disciplines / Play styles

 

So many possibilities, a crafter could find a nice niche for themselves.

 

Nice update and maybe a great change.

Would be nice if this was paired with having to selectively decide on what types of crafting materials you needed to bring into a campaign in order to outfit your guild better with the new armor system.... you know by restricting amount imported by weight and size of the materials...but we have coins now, so uncle bob can just bring in w/e,


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I can see how some of the concepts give more flavors to the archtype's profession, Knight in particular, like a Sentinel could be more inclined to wear leather for more mobility.

 

Good stuff, the more I think about it.


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Like these changes very much. Not limiting armor but having +/- system to it brilliant. There should be no auto swapping armor at all during combat but weapons I would be ok with like 2 weapon sets. 

 

Plus this games art work keeps looking better and better every character model you release. Keep it up.

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Wow did you guys check out war of the roses? You totally should. I think I suggested it a ways back, maybe got the ball rolling B)

 

With your combo system, and now locationally important damage, interesting move sets will happen, maybe get some fighting game level theory hammer stuff going on.

 

"that move has a ton of frame delay" jah jah unt es goodt against ze temple.

Edited by Zomnivore

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Oh!  That chart was just an example.  The actual chart is very large (ARMOR TYPES) * (DAMAGE TYPES), so we just made that one up to illustrate the point. 

 

(We probably shouldn't have made it look 'balanced' at all, because the actual data won't look like that.  PLATE will offer more protection against more types in total than LEATHER, but will have other shortcomings beyond resistances/susceptibilities -- like decreased movement speed, stamina, inventory grid, whatever.)  

 

The actual chart (which came to us compliments of one Thomas P. Blair, esquire) is absoutely monstrous, and it will likely be tweaked dozens (and dozens...) of times between now and launch.

 

Todd

ACE

 

Glad you guys are already heading towards a more nuanced approach!


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Not to be a grammar gummy bear, but shouldn't Crushing be Bludgeoning instead?

Crushing is the act of pressing or squeezing, like between a hammer and the ground or wall.  But the act of just hitting somebody with a blunt object is bludgeoning, not crushing.

 

On a side note, I hope Holy and Dark are added to the list.  Cuz I want to slap people with shadow magic.

Necromancy motherfluffers, necromancy!

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I just love it! This was something I was hoping for! Let the players build and play their characters how they want to! A+ ACE!

Edited by Nex

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It's beginning to look very Dark Souls to me, and I've only one thing to say.  Praise the Sun!

 

Quote:

"For example, the current list of damage types includes: SLASHING, CRUSHING, PIERCING, FIRE, ICE, ELECTRIC, NATURE, POISON, DISEASE, BLEED."

 

If :

Ice = Soul Magic (Crystal Weapon anyone?)

Nature = Petrify

& Disease = Curse

 

You'd have the same set of damage types as DSII.

 

Plus mix/match armor, armor effecting your noise level, and heavier armor causing increased stamina consumption/decreased move speed, also sound very DS.

The hinted at Hit Location would take combat strategy even a step beyond; though DS does have headshots I don't think damage is calculated per body part but only by comparing your whole armor/resistance to a damage type. 

 

Another thing I really like about DS is that they don't even bother to classify armor as  cloth, light, medium, or heavy, they just have a fairly linear progression from lightest to heaviest and everything in between, and heavier armor almost always means better physical armor and poise, but not necessarily better resistances to non-physical damage types, and most heavy armors have serious deficiencies in one or more of the resistances.   The trade-off is such that you definitely come across a wide range of builds and equipment load-outs, there is certainly no optimal build, just whatever works for your build and play style.  And while you might throw on fire-resist gear in a PvE area known for fire-based mobs, you probably won't swap your whole set for PvP against a Pyromancy build, though you might throw on a ring that increases fire-resist if your build could spare the ring slot. 

 

As long as they keep mitigation and resistances in check with diminishing returns, so at most you can only half the incoming damage without an active block, parry, or dodge, it will be an awesome inclusion.  Because it would suck for Archetypes (like Frostweaver) that revolve around one damage type (like ice) to be nullified by high resistance to that specific type, even if that left them vulnerable to other damage types like fire. That's great if you're a Confessor but crap if you're a Frostweaver.


Luke I am your Uncle... Bob.  What, my sister Padmè never mentioned me?

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I'm happy with this as long as we don't need to play the inventory minigame DURING combat to be optimal. Skill should not be based on running around with 12 different sets of armor with 12 different macros to switch in and out of based on your opponent.

 

I hope there is some kind of punishment for gear swapping in combat.

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I love not being able to just look at someone and know exactly what they are, how they will fight and how you can defend against/beat them. You'll still be able to see weapons, most likely (though hopefully you can carry multiple if you have the skills for them) so will get some information there. But having to learn and adapt during the fight rather than prepare in advance, to have to find a way to win with what you brought rather than what the meta says you should bring to this battle, to have to think for yourself, on the fly? Excellent.

 

Armor swapping? Hell no. Realistic physics engine. If you try to swap armor in battle, I'm going to shoot you in the gut while you're pulling your chainmail over your head. (please, please, please)


I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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just make the armor swap take 30 sec

 

Hotswapping /mid-combat/ is silly in any regard, Crowfall to WoW that's just bad design.

 

You hide behind like, a rock or something then swap there.

 

 

note: I don't really care whether or not this actually happens, this is what I see happening if they don't implement something to make it a drawback to carry other armor sets around.

 

Acceptable for me would be swapping specifically and only out of combat, but no "slow" for carrying armor sets in a bag.

Edited by destroyerbravo

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Very VERY good move guys. Horizontal progression > Vertical in any sandbox style game.

 

Another Con I see to this system is balancing damage types and skill will be even more delicate, and 'meta' play will become necessary. For example, say early game archers headshotting everyone because bows are cheap and easy to come by will force everyone into wearing a leather helms, not fun. So its a really nice idea and fun to give players more armor choices, but I've found from other games that mixing armor types can lead to a min/max'd perfect armor set that everyone eventually runs, again not fun. Balancing damage potential from each type will be key to preventing this.

 

Also I really hope you guys are experimenting with a weaponswap system similar to GW2 or ESO. And make swapping armor or other weapons be an out of combat only with a rooted cast

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