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Crowfall and not wanting to be "overly twitchy"...


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A few of my guildmates and I were discussing yesterday what being overly twitchy would be for crowfall and what qualifies as twitch and what does not....

 

Often times twitch is associated primarily with FPS games and the reflex required to adjust to the unexpected... but mechanically what goes on in an FPS requires much less reflex and mechanics than say an RTS game...

 

It got me thinking about this video and what it takes to execute such things...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlIkzgTQ4W0

 

In RTS a lot of each stage of the game is executing in a macro sequence/rhythm to build up your bases and armies... with stops in the rhythm here and there to focus on microing certain things. 

 

Good RTS players average anywhere from about 250-350 actions per minute (mouse or keyboard click) with exceptions at times slightly below or above that average. 

 

That's to say they are making 250-350 actions based on usually much more decision and thought per minute. 

 

Now when we talk about crowfall, an action combat mmorpg that wants player skill to matter... what kind of standard are we trying to set.  I understand that the game can not be overly twitchy, or at the very least has to allow for some playstyles that aren't too twitch reliant... but where will this game rank in the realm of skill-based gaming?

 

Anyway i'm curious what some of your definitions of twitch may mean... and what kind of speed you think is desirable for an mmorpg. 

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I missed what you personally want to see in Crowfall, I'm curious.

 

Anyway, it's good to see what twitch gameplay is, being explained. It's often the case that people testing games call gameplay twitch while it's not (I'm looking at you Landmark). Wiki link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twitch_gameplay

 

It's hard to say what I want to see in Crowfall though. What I want to see is less twitch than shooters that's for sure, but definitely faster than 'normal or tab-target' mmorpg's. I have no idea how twitchy Tera is supposed to be, but the speed felt okay in that game. Maybe a tiny bit faster than that would be fine.

Edited by Canth

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THE most active European Crowfall community. Join us now!

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I missed what you personally want to see in Crowfall, I'm curious.

 

Anyway, it's good to see what twitch gameplay is, being explained. It's often the case that people testing games call gameplay twitch while it's not (I'm looking at you Landmark). Wiki link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twitch_gameplay

 

It's hard to say what I want to see in Crowfall though. What I want to see is less twitch than shooters that's for sure, but definitely faster than 'normal or tab-target' mmorpg's. I have no idea how twitchy Tera is supposed to be, but the speed felt okay in that game. Maybe a tiny bit faster than that would be fine.

I'd like to see crowfall accommodate many different types of playstyles.  Really fast paced high APM type classes as well as really slow tanky heavy hitting types and anything inbetween that they can conjure up. 

 

This is all just a starting point of course... Once we get into game we may find that many of the systems work better with a faster paced game or a slower paced game. 

 

The primary concern I have is that almost every new mmorpg always says they want player skill to matter... so I really want player skill to matter...

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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The primary concern I have is that almost every new mmorpg always says they want player skill to matter... so I really want player skill to matter...

 

Having a (faster) Twitch gameplay doesn't necessarily mean it's more skilled at the same time, but I agree it's part of it.

Edited by Canth

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I missed what you personally want to see in Crowfall, I'm curious.

 

Anyway, it's good to see what twitch gameplay is, being explained. It's often the case that people testing games call gameplay twitch while it's not (I'm looking at you Landmark). Wiki link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twitch_gameplay

 

It's hard to say what I want to see in Crowfall though. What I want to see is less twitch than shooters that's for sure, but definitely faster than 'normal or tab-target' mmorpg's. I have no idea how twitchy Tera is supposed to be, but the speed felt okay in that game. Maybe a tiny bit faster than that would be fine.

 

This Wiki page has only one reference and the article being referenced doesn't mention the term twitch.

 

When I read "twitch", I think about a combination of high rate of mouse / keyboard actions, reflexes and mouse precision. Basically the qualities that allow a first person shooter player to be efficient.

 

I hope that in Crowfall we can see some archetypes that allow this kind of twitch gameplay, while other archetypes offer different type of experience, relying more on strategy, tactic, support, etc. or lowering the amount of skill required to inflict damage (AoE abilities, ground target, etc.).

 

edit : I missed this external link http://www2.gsu.edu/~wwwitr/docs/mjgames/

Edited by courant101
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Having a (faster) Twitch gameplay doesn't necessarily mean it's more skilled at the same time, but I agree it's part of it.

There's different kinds of skill... but to me there are already gamers out there that are proving that you can have a high level of mechanical skill and also a high level of conceptual skill at the same time, so it's something to keep in mind when figuring out where the bar should be set for player skill to matter.

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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They stated in the past that each archetype will have its own "feel" how I see this happening is much like a MOBA, where some classes feel clunky with large hard hitting attacks that take timing and positioning, and others that rely on lots of quick action clicking that are bursty quick hitters.

 

Ultimately that is my hope for the game, where a majority of the "skill" comes from it being your style of game play(showing off players who are good at playing a certain niche or role).

 

I just hope that none of the archetypes are just completely freak out spammy with their clicking to where it feels like I am having a stroke every time I am in combat.

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Varius - Veteran Member of LG
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the vast majority of these APM are just useless actions...

 

switching between 2 control groups, clicking 100 times to make units move and so on...

 

 

it's an absolute meaningless stat and doesn't have anything to do with twitch...

it isn't an indicator for reaction or anything of that sorts...

Edited by freeze
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the vast majority of these APM are just useless actions...

 

switching between 2 control groups, clicking 100 times to make units move and so on...

 

 

it's an absolute meaningless stat and doesn't have anything to do with twitch...

it isn't an indicator for reaction or anything of that sorts...

Actually this is untrue... there is no perfect way to quantify effective apm vs noneffective APM... but at the very least... even APM that may not seem effective is used to maintain a certain speed/rhythm for when you absolutely need it. 

 

Getting into lategame macro requires very high APM... and it's hard to play well if you just go from 0 apm with no warmed up rhythm to full lategame apm. 

 

Edit:  But this is what is interesting to discuss about twitch... if someone is able to maintain 250-350apm while making many more decisions in regards to those actions, is that twitch or is that just being fast? 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Twitch will be dictated by cast timers and abilities that break your casts.. keeping this in mind I'm sure there will be a cap to the amount of DPS you can dish out per class.. I don't see it being anywhere near what's required to compete in a game like SC2.. even the guy in your vid says games like WC3 requires a more lax demand for twitchy gameplay.. I don't see Crowfall demanding more than a game like World of Warcraft and most other MMOs out there. People will just need to stay on top of their cast timers..

 

In Shadowbane you could click an ability and hold down the spacebar button to automatically cast that ability as soon as the timer is ready... what you'll probably end up seeing in Crowfall are people with macro keyboards and mice with perfectly timed attack combos and such. Seeign as a macro mouse only costs like $30 now n' days I'm sure it'll be the norm.. personally I'll be using a Razer naga epic chroma and a blackwidow ultimate chroma keyboard.

Edited by thenebrosity

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lol ok.. I wonder if I'll still be able to steal directly from people's inventories.. hrmmm

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I'd like to see crowfall accommodate many different types of playstyles. Really fast paced high APM type classes as well as really slow tanky heavy hitting types and anything inbetween that they can conjure up.

 

This is all just a starting point of course... Once we get into game we may find that many of the systems work better with a faster paced game or a slower paced game.

 

The primary concern I have is that almost every new mmorpg always says they want player skill to matter... so I really want player skill to matter...

I feel like skill in mmorpgs most translates to knowledge/decision making. What to do in x situation, understanding what y does and how to combat it.

So in that context I think skill will matter. I highly doubt you'll need to be an APM fiend, or have amazing twitch skills to be successful at crowfall. Possessing these skills might help when making decisions on the fly, but everything I've read makes me feel there will be artificial limiters in place.

Edited by helix
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I always thought twitch gameplay referred to being able to snap a targeting reticule to someone and get a headshot before they could react.

 

APM in RTSs is a completely different thing.

 

Now in crowfall I expect some classes to require more inputs more often than others but not approaching the APM you mention...

 

The true skill in Crowfall will be the ability to motivate and lead a well rounded group of players, plan and strategize, and then execute as a team.

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I always thought twitch gameplay referred to being able to snap a targeting reticule to someone and get a headshot before they could react.

 

APM in RTSs is a completely different thing.

 

Now in crowfall I expect some classes to require more inputs more often than others but not approaching the APM you mention...

 

The true skill in Crowfall will be the ability to motivate and lead a well rounded group of players, plan and strategize, and then execute as a team.

That's why I want to see what people consider twitch...

 

As far as apm being a different thing, some apm isn't very twitchy, some is very twitchy, often requiring more precision than many FPS games would require. 

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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In my opinion seeing as this is a RPG twitch should be just one of several factors that play into combat. Planning, strategy, being able to adapt to the situation etc are all just as important (maybe more so) as how you are physically able to control your toon.

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Actually this is untrue... there is no perfect way to quantify effective apm vs noneffective APM... but at the very least... even APM that may not seem effective is used to maintain a certain speed/rhythm for when you absolutely need it. 

 

Getting into lategame macro requires very high APM... and it's hard to play well if you just go from 0 apm with no warmed up rhythm to full lategame apm. 

 

Edit:  But this is what is interesting to discuss about twitch... if someone is able to maintain 250-350apm while making many more decisions in regards to those actions, is that twitch or is that just being fast? 

 

the only game genre that tracks APM is the RTS genre.

and even among those games, you have to take this stat with a grain of salt, because of the highly inflated numbers you see.

 

People who have absolute crisp mechanics, meaning their actual mouse clicks and button presses on the keyboard actually perform a useful task, will still be able to easily compete to the spamming 350APM kid.

 

 

In any other game genre the stat is even more meaningless.

and CF wont be an exception.

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the only game genre that tracks APM is the RTS genre.

and even among those games, you have to take this stat with a grain of salt, because of the highly inflated numbers you see.

 

People who have absolute crisp mechanics, meaning their actual mouse clicks and button presses on the keyboard actually perform a useful task, will still be able to easily compete to the spamming 350APM kid.

 

 

In any other game genre the stat is even more meaningless.

and CF wont be an exception.

Well sorry but I think you are pretty wrong... you must be capable of high APM to reach the elite level... if you can not reach high apm you can not execute much of what RTS requires you to execute mechanically. 

 

In other genres there isn't as much demand on consistently high APM, but they have their moments where APM is required...

 

But more importantly, so what's your definition of twitch and what do you want to see in crowfall?

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Well sorry but I think you are pretty wrong... you must be capable of high APM to reach the elite level... if you can not reach high apm you can not execute much of what RTS requires you to execute mechanically. 

 

In other genres there isn't as much demand on consistently high APM, but they have their moments where APM is required...

 

But more importantly, so what's your definition of twitch and what do you want to see in crowfall?

 

define "high APM"

 

There were a couple of SC2 pros, that could compete with sub avg 150APM.

Reaching 300 peaks is not what I was talking about. I'm talking average here

 

 

what I want to see?

 

the more twitch the better, fps combat, bunny hopping, wall running, dbl jumps, skating... give me all of it. I'll be happy.

Probably wont be happening, but I knew that from the start :)

Edited by freeze
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If combat is anything like that video, I want a refund.  I am 49 years young now and have been gaming since the 90's....I want skill to matter but in the form of what you do, not how fast and quick you are.  They are dubbing this a strategy game, that title alone makes me think the game will be more about your environment, surroundings and planning.  I want fluid fast no twitch combat that makes you think,  combat that does not require anything close to that video to be effective.

 

I have more on this but will wait for more comments to read before I elaborate...

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