Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
Pann

Combat Chat 2, Part I - Official discussion thread

Recommended Posts

I just worry if there's no sort of arc on arrow shots that you won't be able to get over friendly heads with friendly fire and collision detection on.

 

And I also worry that if there is an artificial arc that I won't be able to control it how I want.

 

So I'd much rather have gravity affecting projectiles, even if I have to shoot over heads, even without much experience doing so in other games, for the sake of control in large-scale combat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agree that arrows should continue until they hit the ground. It also gives an opportunity to pick up more ammunition on the move if arrows are limited.

 

Also, I think the caster should be able to detonate the fireball at a time of their choosing like in this clip.

 

I think you are taking it a step too far Youma - arrows continuing to the ground then disappearing is what everyone is talking about. Continuing to the ground and leaving 1 arrow on the ground is something completely different and I'm not sure the devs want to spam all those on the ground during a siege.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Proper arrow flight...

 

trajectory-2.gif

 

That's arrow flight for target archery.

 

Medieval war archery was a very different matter, more similar to modern clout archery. Archers shoot at elevations up to 45 degrees in order to maximize range.

 

gallery29.jpg


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, arrows will need some point at which they just disappear, just as a safeguard against arrows being rendered forever and slowing the game down if there's a physics glitch. Always have safeguards against memory leaks.

 

 But from a gameplay standpoint, arrows should last long enough that long range snipes are possible by skilled archers. What's even the point of playing an archer if you can't pull off those awesome skillshots? ^^

Edited by 11nephilim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

disappointed with your approach to range combat...

 

100m is not even close to being nonsensical, sorry

 

and why would arrows need a time of life?

aren't they arcing and eventually will reach the ground anyways

 

That's what I thought aswell. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Woot for no global cooldowns. 

 

Wince for animations as locking mechanisms.   It's a slippery slope.

 

 

 

It "time till use" vs "windup time"

 

Both offer a pause between actions. Having no cool down leads to more action and control for the player. Plus you can plan better by timing an action to go off or complete to which adds more depth. Ex like winding up a huge hay-maker punch to land just as an enemy comes into range. Some MMOs use both which can feel sluggish because we have to deal with two "timers" during combat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, two points.

One is skills not having cooldown.  This could be a good or a bad thing, depending on how it's implemented.

I think it's fine for the most part for you to be able to attack consistently as soon as one animation ends, esp if it chains into some other kind of move.

 

Provided however that there is a 'cost' to your skills.  Either a mana system, or preferably from the Stamina bar.

So that the more you attack, the less defense you have as both attacking and defending use the same resource.  It gives combat a great deal more depth, as now you must weigh offense with defense and always be mindful of your remaining stamina.

 

What you cannot have is for players to be able to attack with impunity.

 

 

Second point, I don't mind the idea of stacking DoT's, but this can turn sour if too much damage is poured onto a single target without them being able to stop it.  Or worse, when you cannot tell how much damage your taking or will take.

I think the original Guild Wars had the best DoT system I've ever seen in a game, period.

 

It had a Pip system.  You could have regeneration or degeneration, and each would either add or subtract a set amount of pip's depending on the skill or condition.

Each pip would regen or degen at a flat rate, and would cancel each out out, to a maximum of 10 pips.

 

So say if you had 3 pips of regen, then got 7 pips of degen, you would have 4 pips of degen actually effecting you.

The reason this worked so well was because health pools were relatively uniform across all levels, since you could only go to level 20 in the game.

And as far as I can tell, Crowfall won't have levels.  So the health pools will likely be fairly uniform, probably with each Archtype having varying amounts, but never too massive of a difference.

 

So you could very well have a uniform, flat degen/regen rate that caps out.

It makes it very easy to read and understand how much damage your taking, how to stop it or counter act it, and prevents it from ever growing too out of hand.

It's honestly about as close to perfect of a DoT system I've ever seen.

Edited by yoh

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you are taking it a step too far Youma - arrows continuing to the ground then disappearing is what everyone is talking about. Continuing to the ground and leaving 1 arrow on the ground is something completely different and I'm not sure the devs want to spam all those on the ground during a siege.

 

So my comment intersects with another discussion. There's talk about having arrows in ones inventory and the act of using your bow depletes your arrow supply. If that is the case I think when the arrow hits the ground it should be an item that can be picked up again, because objects shouldn't just disappear. Take some durability damage yes, but not immediately disappear.

 

The other reason to have ground models for spent arrows would be for world readability. It would be a great way to show "Hey, there was a battle here!" For a variety of reasons they should of course disappear after a while. What would also be neat is if your gear breaks it leaves behind a broken ground model for it as well.

 

I could imagine third parties following fights and looting the scraps...


 Click here to join the Crowfall Discord chat community

Sekket on Mourning. Bhorov on Test Server. Youma the Pirate wherever TSP has sailed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

so who is going to make the mod that tells us the distance away of our selected target?

nobody because you cannot select a target.  With that said we will have an reticle and that reticle will be some form of a hud that can have that information.  If they choose to let us have that much info..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just wondering, everybody is going on about an arrow. When i watched the video it seemed more like they are referring to ballista projectile which are magical rather that a arrow shot from a bow. Lets hope they clear this up for us. Most MMO pvp you select a target and click a button to do damage, its not like a 1st person shooter where you aim, pull bow back and fire, so it probably makes sense if is range limited(calculated with time and speed giving you an attack range). 

 

Friendly fire is really going to change they way you battle, hope they give us more on that soon. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just worry if there's no sort of arc on arrow shots that you won't be able to get over friendly heads with friendly fire and collision detection on.

 

And I also worry that if there is an artificial arc that I won't be able to control it how I want.

 

So I'd much rather have gravity affecting projectiles, even if I have to shoot over heads, even without much experience doing so in other games, for the sake of control in large-scale combat.

Like I said earlier in the thread I'm 99.9% sure they said somewhere that projectiles do in fact arc. Due to both projectiles having physics and friendly fire. Try as I might I haven't been able to find the quote though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Being purely speculation, here are some thoughts on physical arrows.

 

Physical arrows need their own projectile rules.

 

Magic projectiles can do whatever they like. But physical arrows should not disappear based on an arbitrary time limit or distance. 

 

That means their distance should be based on the power (draw) of the bow which translates to the velocity of the arrow. I understand that could create a learning curve between bows of differing strengths (draws) which is probably too much for many casual players to handle but consider these scenarios.

 

A: arrow travels in a line and all bows have the same velocity to prevent the aiming learning curve between bows but it disappears after an arbitrary time.

zk1ll3.jpg

 

 

B: the arrow follows some physical rules and has a drop but still disappears after traveling some total distance

23m7u5e.jpg

 

C: arrow travels until it collides with something physical but it's maximum distance and the drop of be arrow is limited by the strength of the bow.

11h5ag3.jpg

 

C is obviously the best scenario because it allows you to fire over a line of friendly targets and allow archers to make more impressive shots from greater distance if they understand their bow. Aka there's more skill required all around. There also won't be any surprises when your arrow magically disappears when it would otherwise have collided with its target making more skilled archers more valuable. 

And You will never have "rogue" projectiles sailing unreasonable distances which I believe is what the timer is designed to combat. 

 

Further more in both A and B there exists a scenario where two lines of archers can stand opposite one another just outside the timer range and avoid a friendly fire simply by being 6.5 second apart while firing arrows directly at each other regardless of whether or not they hit and enemy between them.

 

I am not advocating for an archery simulator, just the ability for the arrow to travel its true distance as it solves many of the friendly fire issues as well as making the skill cap for archers higher. 

 

TLDNR 

 

Arbitrary timers/distance = less skill, less fun, fewer legendary archery moments and broken archery ambushes

 

"Truer" arrow flight = better targeting, more skill, more strategy.

 

Actually this reminds me of a stunt I liked to do in the original Darkfall (DF1). Skills were raised only by use, so alot of people were AFK skilling up in the safe zone. One guy was raising his bow skill by shooting arrows off of the edge of a building (so you couldn't get in front of him and have the arrow hit you). However he was pointing in the direction out of the safe zone.

 

I noticed that his arrows were actually landing beyond the safe zone so I stood there and occasionally let an arrow hit me. Since he was effectively attacking someone, his flag got turned on and the city towers automatically attacked and killed him since attacking someone in town or being a red PKer automatically activated the towers.

 

He kept dying in town while AFK without knowing why and i would go back and loot his grave.  

 

:P

 

I never like AFK skilling up.

Edited by Dakyn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Certainly appreciate the time and effort that you put into that but I think this is one of those things that falls into the "Funism > Realism" category. I mean sure trick shots might be "fun" for a few but the average player isn't going to want to deal with ultra twitch and ultra timing based archery.

 

Bottom line if your shot isn't reaching its target perhaps simply need to move within range. :P  So yeah while "true arrows" might be ok in Skyrim perhaps not so much in an MMO.

 

Gravity effect on archery (and some spells) worked fine in Darkfall.  I'm sure other games have done it as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Being purely speculation, here are some thoughts on physical arrows.

 

Physical arrows need their own projectile rules.

 

Magic projectiles can do whatever they like. But physical arrows should not disappear based on an arbitrary time limit or distance. 

 

That means their distance should be based on the power (draw) of the bow which translates to the velocity of the arrow. I understand that could create a learning curve between bows of differing strengths (draws) which is probably too much for many casual players to handle but consider these scenarios.

 

A: arrow travels in a line and all bows have the same velocity to prevent the aiming learning curve between bows but it disappears after an arbitrary time.

zk1ll3.jpg

 

 

B: the arrow follows some physical rules and has a drop but still disappears after traveling some total distance

23m7u5e.jpg

 

C: arrow travels until it collides with something physical but it's maximum distance and the drop of be arrow is limited by the strength of the bow.

11h5ag3.jpg

 

C is obviously the best scenario because it allows you to fire over a line of friendly targets and allow archers to make more impressive shots from greater distance if they understand their bow. Aka there's more skill required all around. There also won't be any surprises when your arrow magically disappears when it would otherwise have collided with its target making more skilled archers more valuable. 

And You will never have "rogue" projectiles sailing unreasonable distances which I believe is what the timer is designed to combat. 

 

Further more in both A and B there exists a scenario where two lines of archers can stand opposite one another just outside the timer range and avoid a friendly fire simply by being 6.5 second apart while firing arrows directly at each other regardless of whether or not they hit and enemy between them.

 

I am not advocating for an archery simulator, just the ability for the arrow to travel its true distance as it solves many of the friendly fire issues as well as making the skill cap for archers higher. 

 

TLDNR 

 

Arbitrary timers/distance = less skill, less fun, fewer legendary archery moments and broken archery ambushes

 

"Truer" arrow flight = better targeting, more skill, more strategy.

 

I completely agree with this way of doing things with arrows. Please give them gravity and let them fly until they collide with something. I purchased ESO with the intention of making an archer just like I did in Skyrim and ended up being disappointed with my arrows not being able to hit the crabs on the other side of the river.

 

The game is still early in development, please consider it!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I completely agree with this way of doing things with arrows. Please give them gravity and let them fly until they collide with something. I purchased ESO with the intention of making an archer just like I did in Skyrim and ended up being disappointed with my arrows not being able to hit the crabs on the other side of the river.

 

The game is still early in development, please consider it!

 

If arrows can fly forever then you have to do the same for magic projectiles right? Not that big of a deal when you think of the benefits the ranged player gets. But what about melee? They would never be able to catch any ranged player. The risk is almost nothing for ranged players who could just aim 45 degrees up and smoke any and all melee players. Get a group of rangers? Block out the skies? Now you're just abusing an already unfair mechanic. That's my 2 cents, I don't want ranged to be the only viable option, so I'm glad they made the decision they did.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some great answers and some not so great (imo).

 

I am really bummed that they are doing teh same old "projectiles" disappearing after "X" distance.

 

Nothing is more infurating in GW2 as an archer then standing on a wall with a huuuuge groupe of people laying siege to your castle while you're on top of the walls (which naturally would give archers a longer range then the people on the ground) and not being able to hit most people because the arrows have some tiny distance and they then magically "Disappear."

 

Why not allow arrows to well, do what arrows do? Drop, arrows go "x" distance and over-time the arrow drops until it hits whatever it hits (the ground most likely).

 

I mean, using a bow with a long distance like that, 150+ yards, you're going to be aiming up into the air so the actual chance of hitting something is low. That is why they used many archers at once, firing volleys of arrows into a group.

 

I think it could be balanced out. I mean anyone here play Mount and Blade? I want to see you hit a target at distance (While they are moving) with an arrow, it's NOT easy at all and I think if we have "Free aim" that it's more then fair to allow archers to actually feel like "archers" and have actual range to them and not feel like they are all using short-range bows.

 

I also wish elevation actually affected range, not only of archers but mages, siege weapons, etc. That was one of the key reasons why the "high" ground is so important (even in modern times). A higher ground gives you the upper hand and you should be able to use it.

Edited by stiler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If arrows can fly forever then you have to do the same for magic projectiles right? Not that big of a deal when you think of the benefits the ranged player gets. But what about melee? They would never be able to catch any ranged player. The risk is almost nothing for ranged players who could just aim 45 degrees up and smoke any and all melee players. Get a group of rangers? Block out the skies? Now you're just abusing an already unfair mechanic. That's my 2 cents, I don't want ranged to be the only viable option, so I'm glad they made the decision they did.

No, because of bullet drop..


y9tj8G5.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since the game is supposed to use real physic, gravity has to affect arrows (Solid mass object). Now if they limit the arrow to a max distance, they would need to code it such that the arrow will always be pulled to the ground (using a curve) by the time the distance was covered. Doing so removes the need to have the arrow "magically" disappear. This should allow for one situation that ClosetGamer didn't cover and that's firing an arrow straight up. The arrow would travel up and slow down and then turn around and fall straight down (possibly hitting the very player that fired it).

 

The same would be true if the arrows flight is time based (not distance). The code should calculate the maximum distance the arrow could travel and adjust the arc so that it again curves down and hits the ground and not "magically" disappear. This might create the occasional odd arrow arc (like firing off an arrow from the top of the mountain and watch it disappear down the mountain side), but it would stop this issue with disappearing.

 

Spells are occasionally solid mass objects (like say a fireball spell) so i can see them traveling in an arc and potentially exploding once their maximum has been reached (time or distance). These sort of spells could be considered temporarily solid and destabilize over time (like real world ball lighting) and so explode. Other spells may not be considered solid mass objects (like say a lightning bolt) and so they have no arc to them since the effect of gravity is virtually nill. However, being energy, that energy dissipates over the preset time/distance until it just "fizzles" out. 

 

I think this would be a better way to handle having solid mass object behave rather then "magically" disappearing mid flight. (The only possible exception being for "Throwing" weapons. Will CrowFall be like ShadowBane in that a throwing weapon always teleports back to the player for reuse, or will a player need to carry tons of throwing weapons? I suppose this would more likely fall into the finite vs infinite ammo discussion). 

 

This could potentially lead to interesting scenario where in a battle to mages on each side cast a fireball spell and the spells could "hit" one another mid air causing both to detonate at that point. Possibly even an arrow or throwing weapon (like that big hammer in the one game play video) could detonate a fire ball before it actually reaches the player (lessening the damage it could cause).

 

In most games currently, the fireball spells would just travel through each other (or the hammer) despite the fact they must have mass if they travel a curved arc due to gravity (and so they should be solid and "hittable" by other solid objects).

 

And yes, this would allow a mage to cast a fireball straight up and have it come exploding down right on top of themself.   :D

Edited by Dakyn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...