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oridi

Crafting Update

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I'm not swiping away at anything other than to state that their updates have included a lot of information related to crafting conceptually, which they've even remained pretty vague on everything as much of the details of how anything works.  They've continued to remind us that they are going to use iteration to flesh out how their systems work, which means there will be a starting point in game and it will most likely not look anything like the eventual result.

 

If they announce "this is how our system is going to look" then go through the iteration process, they will have to spend more time correcting things than they would have if they remained open with the vision of their systems while not getting into the details that they expect to change.

It's not just crafting, it's every facet of the game and everyone has been asking and begging them for information on the systems they care for the most.  To some degree, we've all just had to wait until they answer us with their announcements.

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To some degree, we've all just had to wait until they answer us with their announcements.

True.

 

There is already a pattern and history developing, also.

 

For every announcement, there is feedback then usually some resultant change. Like during the pre-alpha combat video released during KickStarter. Posters were losing their poorly made socks over telegraphs. Devs had to make posts citing changes and unruffle the feathers.

 

Actually, lots of features get addressed and almost daily. This is one of, if not, the first game that I have seen so much Dev-Community interaction. Pretty cool actually... until Crafting comes up for a topic.

 

Am not raising a stink over the issue but I do have serious concerns that Crafting is being treated as the red-headed step-child in the development process.

 

As I touched on "why we fight", Crafting and the associated Resource systems will be some of the biggest driving forces in promoting AND furthering player conflict... yet it feels and looks like it shall be treated as an afterthought... a tacked on feature.

 

Plan to fail or fail to plan, just let us in on the plan so we can move forward, together.


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Combat systems are being carried over from other games that everyone has worked on. They probably started stronger out the gate on this game than any other project they worked on.

 

I do know they didn't think out EKs and combat too well so some new ground is breaking somewhat...

 

But as they have established code and have been working on CF for a good while now... pre-alpha build is not starting from scratch since CF was recently announced.

 

Crafting will be a big part of the "Why we fight" and if crafting is not a priority to ACE then it should be. Crafting is just as legit playstyle as any other and that should be reflected by informational updates. Why announce Ralph Koster coming aboard if crafting is wait and do later?

 

As for understanding, you might wanna try walking your talk. Open your mind a little too. It seems quite closed.

 

Good day.

Crafting is important, but it isn't the development focus right now. Hell, the entire first alphas are all combat related (per developer statements). They will update you when they update you with regards to crafting.

 

I think the only issue anyone is having with this is Oridi making yet another thread begging for this.

Edited by Adall

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True.

 

There is already a pattern and history developing, also.

 

For every announcement, there is feedback then usually some resultant change. Like during the pre-alpha combat video released during KickStarter. Posters were losing their poorly made socks over telegraphs. Devs had to make posts citing changes and unruffle the feathers.

 

Actually, lots of features get addressed and almost daily. This is one of, if not, the first game that I have seen so much Dev-Community interaction. Pretty cool actually... until Crafting comes up for a topic.

 

Am not raising a stink over the issue but I do have serious concerns that Crafting is being treated as the red-headed step-child in the development process.

 

As I touched on "why we fight", Crafting and the associated Resource systems will be some of the biggest driving forces in promoting AND furthering player conflict... yet it feels and looks like it shall be treated as an afterthought... a tacked on feature.

 

Plan to fail or fail to plan, just let us in on the plan so we can move forward, together.

 

Believe me when I say that PvP'ers were saying the same thing a few weeks ago.  It's just a waiting game and trusting that they are working on the things they say they are working on.  If you trust them, then there's nothing to worry about.

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Am not raising a stink over the issue but I do have serious concerns that Crafting is being treated as the red-headed step-child in the development process.

 

"Scheduled for later in the development project plan" is not the same thing as "deemed unimportant". They can't do everything at the same time.


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"Scheduled for later in the development project plan" is not the same thing as "deemed unimportant". They can't do everything at the same time.

 

I don't think people understand just how small of a team this is and how small of a budget they have. That is what it really boils down to.

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Am not raising a stink over the issue but I do have serious concerns that Crafting is being treated as the red-headed step-child in the development process.

 

Yea.   This same tactic was tried months ago.   And by the same person.  I am gonna leave Todd's response then in case you weren't around at that time to read it.  

 

JToddColeman, on 26 Feb 2015 - 10:50 AM, said:snapback.png

FYI, I almost didn't reply to this thread because of the hyperbolic title.  Where in the FAQ does it state that items will be "impossible to export"?

 

In the future you guys will notice that, more and more, I will only reply to threads that I feel will lead to reasonable discussion and respectful debate.  

 

The reason for this is simple: over many, many years of doing this, I have learned that "what I reply to" correlates strongly with "what I get more of, in the future."

 

To be clear: I'm not saying the title or the tone of this thread was terrible!  Many of your points were invalid, and your questions quite reasonable.  That is why I replied.  

 

I'm just letting you because there is a method to my madness when it comes to which threads I choose to engage in.  Hopefully that will help you guys be better able to predict our behavior and get the answers you want, going forward.

 

Todd

ACE

That being said, I am sure as soon as they have something substantial to report they will.  They have been real good at keeping this community informed with what they feel comfortable to release.    


Maybe it not about the happy ending. Maybe it's about the story.

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Believe me when I say that PvP'ers were saying the same thing a few weeks ago.  It's just a waiting game and trusting that they are working on the things they say they are working on.  If you trust them, then there's nothing to worry about.

 

 

For real, everyone has just got to wait their turn till they hear about their favorite part. Its true there were a LOT of PvPrs/Combat interested players freaking out about why we were getting so many EK updates and nothing about combat. They were even saying that the game direction was changed based on the type of updates.

 

Well look at us now, the last few weeks of Updates have had tons of Combat stuff and yep like clockwork we hear the same "hey my *insert fav aspect here* is being removed/diminished/water tortured!!!! this isn't the same game no more!!"

 

Just relax we'll learn all we need to know in due time.

 

EDIT: quoted wrong person

Edited by pang

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Just pointing out the sequence here:

 

I post asking for an update even if that update is "we have no update".

I get a slew of "there's no need for an update!" posts on the thread.

 

I get an actually helpful post on the thread saying that hey - asking in the Community question area is a bit thick if I'm after a dev response.

 

I post in what I think should be the right area and get slammed for posting again for an update.

There's another slew of "there's no need for an update" mixed with a healthy dose of "stop freaking out" posts.

I'd like an update.  Even if it's "there's no update".  It's not a huge request and it's not out of line given that our only crafting update was back in January.

So again, if you don't think one is needed that's fine but there's nothing wrong with asking for an update in a specific area.  I'm not out of line, I'm not being rude, I'm not being demanding.  I'm just asking for an update. Easy peasy.

 


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Just pointing out the sequence here:

 

I post asking for an update even if that update is "we have no update".

I get a slew of "there's no need for an update!" posts on the thread.

 

I get an actually helpful post on the thread saying that hey - asking in the Community question area is a bit thick if I'm after a dev response.

 

I post in what I think should be the right area and get slammed for posting again for an update.

There's another slew of "there's no need for an update" mixed with a healthy dose of "stop freaking out" posts.

I'd like an update.  Even if it's "there's no update".  It's not a huge request and it's not out of line given that our only crafting update was back in January.

So again, if you don't think one is needed that's fine but there's nothing wrong with asking for an update in a specific area.  I'm not out of line, I'm not being rude, I'm not being demanding.  I'm just asking for an update. Easy peasy.

 

 

Wow, I was the only one giving you an encouraging post and hoping you'd get your answers, and I get no shout out? We'll see if you're ever mentioned when I pick up an Oscar.


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Just pointing out the sequence here:

 

I post asking for an update even if that update is "we have no update".

 

I get a slew of "there's no need for an update!" posts on the thread.

 

I get an actually helpful post on the thread saying that hey - asking in the Community question area is a bit thick if I'm after a dev response.

 

I post in what I think should be the right area and get slammed for posting again for an update.

 

There's another slew of "there's no need for an update" mixed with a healthy dose of "stop freaking out" posts.

 

I'd like an update.  Even if it's "there's no update".  It's not a huge request and it's not out of line given that our only crafting update was back in January.

 

So again, if you don't think one is needed that's fine but there's nothing wrong with asking for an update in a specific area.  I'm not out of line, I'm not being rude, I'm not being demanding.  I'm just asking for an update. Easy peasy.

 

 

Your version of the sequence... here is mine:

 

1. You post a thread in Community Ask & Answer - The post is asking for an update on crafting. It has been a few months since your bait post about needing more crafting information. Reasonable post, wrong area. Last line in the post is pretty bad though, basically saying all the crafting ideas are worthless, yuck. Why not be creative in the meantime and perhaps they will pick over some suggestions you had?

 

2. The community answers you and you didn't like the answer and asked for a developer response as though you are owed something directly. I remember when DM Brandon came in here with the same attitude and he got laughed on the forums, and rightly so. No one is entitled to anything around here; not you and especially not me.

 

3. You take a suggestion to go post this elsewhere, and rather than just ask a member of the moderation team to move to post to an appropriate area, you just up and post again. Also in the wrong area. This isn't really a suggestion post, certainly more of a General Discussion, or even a direct PM/e-mail to the developers.

 

4. People give you the same answer here, and some also realize how obnoxious you are being about this and call you out on it. You don't like it and your panties twist up and you ask them not to post in your threads. Boo-hoo.

 

5. A few people don't really know the backstory and they white knight you, but ultimately come to terms with the other posters saying, "hey just wait it out, we all have had to wait for info. It is all pretty vague right now."

 

Some of us would rather just not put up with your incessant whining for information. You are a veteran poster here, you really should know better. Perhaps we can discuss this further over tea?

Edited by Adall

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4. People give you the same answer here, and some also realize how obnoxious you are being about this and call you out on it. You don't like it and your panties twist up and you ask them not to post in your threads. Boo-hoo.

 

 

 

 

Obnoxious? Is there a application process that needs approval before submitting something to the Suggestion Box? Who's on the comity that over sees this? Is there a waiting period? A fee maybe? 

 

I just looking for clarity since if someone else post a thread they wont be over stepping their bonds by not going through the proper channels first.

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Obnoxious? Is there a application process that needs approval before submitting something to the Suggestion Box? Who's on the comity that over sees this? Is there a waiting period? A fee maybe? 

 

I just looking for clarity since if someone else post a thread they wont be over stepping their bonds by not going through the proper channels first.

Keaggels, this isn't a suggestion... that is kind of the etiquette that one should have before posting in the Suggestion Forum. Suggest something that could work in game or you would like to see in game. These devs are super open, if you want an answer give your question to them in a way they might notice and respond to quickly.

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Can we get an update on crafting?  Even if it's "crafting is not being looked at right now - check back in 6 months".

 

 

Oridi, here's the bad news and the good news. 

 

The bad news is: The game designers focused squarely on the combat system. That's it. It's the foundation upon which everything else will be built. I can tell you that next to my desk is a big wall calendar with the web update topics for the coming weeks. Unless something changes, the forecast isn't showing a crafting update in July.  

 

The good news is: All these fighters are going to need equipment. The All Father is not going to rain it down upon their happy heads like manna from the sky. So, let them grumble about the crafting stuff that--for now--means nothing to them. Smile to yourself and remember: Winter is coming. And it's going to be custard cold for those without supplies. ;)


Valerie "Pann" Massey, Director of Community
 

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I don't mean to be... trouble. But didn't Raph say if you want an economy like the one ACE is planning you have to start with that and build everything around it?

 

Replace "build" with "design" and you're correct.


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I don't mean to be... trouble. But didn't Raph say if you want an economy like the one ACE is planning you have to start with that and build everything around it?

 

You're not being trouble asking questions, I've asked plenty along these lines.  To answer your question though, which I think looking at objectively we can agree on.

 

If they started focusing on designing and building a crafting system for a self proclaimed PvP game, then come Pre-Alpha, there would only be crafting to do.  Even crafters would have to admit that this would make for a pretty disappointing start for the majority of people who've shown interest in CF.  A crafting system in pre-alpha would also require an immense amount of artwork be done, before they've even begun doing artwork on some of their models I'm sure.  You'd run a high risk of wasting money on paying artists for work they'd have to redo down the road.  Furthermore, you'd be limited in what sort of statistics and bonuses armor could give because they are unsure of what sort of balance they need until they dig into combat more.

 

It's not that "AGH CRAFTER BAD, ME NO LIKE", which is how the pvp community seems to consistently be painted.  It is that practicality for a PvP game development will require a combat system to be able to test out what armor does and how it affects the game.  From a crafters standpoint, you could say that the combat system is VERY important because it will be the guinecian pig for testing out what your wares will be capable of.

 

So, maybe everyone can finally put down the pitch forks.

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Guys, the combat focus is for pre-alpha.It's normal that at this point you focus on something you deem basic and elementary and try to get it down right. Nothing prevents ACE from doing similar with crafting. The touching points between the two are not that many (equip, decay, consumption) which in turn are consequental from their combat design decisions as the latest change to how armor is going to be treated shows.

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The bad news is: The game designers focused squarely on the combat system. That's it. It's the foundation upon which everything else will be built. I can tell you that next to my desk is a big wall calendar with the web update topics for the coming weeks. Unless something changes, the forecast isn't showing a crafting update in July.  

 

 

...What Pann said is technically true, but it doesn't paint the entire picture.  Let me clarify.

 

By 'the design team', she means 'Blair and Tully'.  Yes, they are focused (almost) entirely on combat.  They are down in the trenches, defining powers and testing the build and pulling together all the disparate parts (UI, powers, attributes, item stats, etc).

 

I'm not working on any of that.

 

I spend around 50% to 75% of my week (an estimate, but not a bad one) working on the overall design architecture.  When I interface with Raph, that's what we discuss: my architectural blueprints for the game (which I will share with you guys at some point, they are a tool that I use to visualize the game; basically a handful of interlocking flow diagram that show how currencies move between systems.  Currencies meaning everything from 'gold' to 'stamina' to 'player characters').  

 

MY focus is almost exlusively on the metagame level, i.e. the things that tie the game together: world construction, resource spawning and transport, item sinks and decay, stronghold upkeep/destruction/repair/taxes, sieging, economy, user flow between the worlds, training and blessing.  

 

...and yes, of course, crafting.

 

Most of the stuff that I work on, you guys won't see for months.  That doesn't mean it's "on hold," it IS being worked on, but at a very high level.  I can't tell you "what the standard deviation of the quality level of XYZ resource" is, because that's details.  that will come later (and not from me).

 

The upshot of this approach is: yes, from a community standpoint, you'll be seeing almost exclusively combat-related stuff between now and the milestone, because that's what is coming out, first.   The other stuff needs time to bake.  Once the combat foundation is laid, we'll move on to the next part.  and the next part.  and the next.  

 

Until we have a game.

 

Todd

ACE


J Todd Coleman

ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.

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Oridi, here's the bad news and the good news. 

 

The bad news is: The game designers focused squarely on the combat system. That's it. It's the foundation upon which everything else will be built. I can tell you that next to my desk is a big wall calendar with the web update topics for the coming weeks. Unless something changes, the forecast isn't showing a crafting update in July.  

 

The good news is: All these fighters are going to need equipment. The All Father is not going to rain it down upon their happy heads like manna from the sky. So, let them grumble about the crafting stuff that--for now--means nothing to them. Smile to yourself and remember: Winter is coming. And it's going to be custard cold for those without supplies. ;)

Pretty sure no one came in here and said crafting meant nothing to them... we all basically said what you said.

 

Thank you and Jtodd for confirming (although deleting without explaination) our answers. Perhaps she wont inquire again for another four months!

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