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oridi

Crafting Update

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...What Pann said is technically true, but it doesn't paint the entire picture.  Let me clarify.

 

By 'the design team', she means 'Blair and Tully'.  Yes, they are focused (almost) entirely on combat.  They are down in the trenches, defining powers and testing the build and pulling together all the disparate parts (UI, powers, attributes, item stats, etc).

 

I'm not working on any of that.

 

I spend around 50% to 75% of my week (an estimate, but not a bad one) working on the overall design architecture.  When I interface with Raph, that's what we discuss: my architectural blueprints for the game (which I will share with you guys at some point, they are a tool that I use to visualize the game; basically a handful of interlocking flow diagram that show how currencies move between systems.  Currencies meaning everything from 'gold' to 'stamina' to 'player characters').  

 

MY focus is almost exlusively on the metagame level, i.e. the things that tie the game together: world construction, resource spawning and transport, item sinks and decay, stronghold upkeep/destruction/repair/taxes, sieging, economy, user flow between the worlds, training and blessing.  

 

...and yes, of course, crafting.

 

Most of the stuff that I work on, you guys won't see for months.  That doesn't mean it's "on hold," it IS being worked on, but at a very high level.  I can't tell you "what the standard deviation of the quality level of XYZ resource" is, because that's details.  that will come later (and not from me).

 

The upshot of this approach is: yes, from a community standpoint, you'll be seeing almost exclusively combat-related stuff between now and the milestone, because that's what is coming out, first.   The other stuff needs time to bake.  Once the combat foundation is laid, we'll move on to the next part.  and the next part.  and the next.  

 

Until we have a game.

 

Todd

ACE

612bfdb6d3a1df50a3e619097d89e60b95f2a334

 

Thank you for clearing this up for us all, we greatly appreciate it.


You're hilarious dude, you deserve awards for your degree of wit and intelligence, you truly do.

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That is a lot of good behind the scenes information, I'm glad the devs were able to take the time to answer. I don't understand why everyone was jumping on your Oridi, it was a very good question. Thanks.


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...What Pann said is technically true, but it doesn't paint the entire picture.  Let me clarify.

 

By 'the design team', she means 'Blair and Tully'.  Yes, they are focused (almost) entirely on combat.  They are down in the trenches, defining powers and testing the build and pulling together all the disparate parts (UI, powers, attributes, item stats, etc).

 

I'm not working on any of that.

 

I spend around 50% to 75% of my week (an estimate, but not a bad one) working on the overall design architecture.  When I interface with Raph, that's what we discuss: my architectural blueprints for the game (which I will share with you guys at some point, they are a tool that I use to visualize the game; basically a handful of interlocking flow diagram that show how currencies move between systems.  Currencies meaning everything from 'gold' to 'stamina' to 'player characters').  

 

MY focus is almost exlusively on the metagame level, i.e. the things that tie the game together: world construction, resource spawning and transport, item sinks and decay, stronghold upkeep/destruction/repair/taxes, sieging, economy, user flow between the worlds, training and blessing.  

 

...and yes, of course, crafting.

 

Most of the stuff that I work on, you guys won't see for months.  That doesn't mean it's "on hold," it IS being worked on, but at a very high level.  I can't tell you "what the standard deviation of the quality level of XYZ resource" is, because that's details.  that will come later (and not from me).

 

The upshot of this approach is: yes, from a community standpoint, you'll be seeing almost exclusively combat-related stuff between now and the milestone, because that's what is coming out, first.   The other stuff needs time to bake.  Once the combat foundation is laid, we'll move on to the next part.  and the next part.  and the next.  

 

Until we have a game.

 

Todd

ACE

Basically a "we don't know what it will look like yet, and not for awhile" answer.

Which is at least honest enough for me to accept.... for now.

 

But just to be clear, this does nothing to resolve any of my concerns regarding crafting, and non-combat in general.

And that's where the buck stops with me, literally.  I won't financially invest anymore then I have because quite simply I don't trust you enough not to screw this up.  I only invested initially because I believed in the concept of funding an MMO via crowd-sourcing, regardless whether or not the game was for me.

As long as it is able to get to market, then the investment was worth it.

 

 

Anymore then that however requires me to be sold on the idea itself, and so far I remain unconvinced.

So far it's yet another combat simulator on a slightly larger scale then most anything I've already seen.  And I honestly could not really care less about that.

I've got combat games, combat games as far as the eye can see.  And i know that if combat is all you really have, no matter how good it is, then this game just won't hold my attention for long.

Of course there is the fact that we already have so many examples of decent combat, even in MMO's.  So it's reasonable to trust that you might make something fun.

 

But what we don't have, is good examples of crafting, esp in MMO's.

It's almost always an afterthought, even when it isn't, it's still derivative hand-me-down garbage.  If you truly want to innovate, it won't be with combat.

It will be everything else that never ever get's innovated upon.

 

 

If combat is the 'bread and butter' of the game, then the saying goes "A man cannot live on bread alone".

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Basically a "we don't know what it will look like yet, and not for awhile" answer.

Which is at least honest enough for me to accept.... for now.

 

But just to be clear, this does nothing to resolve any of my concerns regarding crafting, and non-combat in general.

And that's where the buck stops with me, literally.  I won't financially invest anymore then I have because quite simply I don't trust you enough not to screw this up.  I only invested initially because I believed in the concept of funding an MMO via crowd-sourcing, regardless whether or not the game was for me.

As long as it is able to get to market, then the investment was worth it.

 

 

Anymore then that however requires me to be sold on the idea itself, and so far I remain unconvinced.

So far it's yet another combat simulator on a slightly larger scale then most anything I've already seen.  And I honestly could not really care less about that.

I've got combat games, combat games as far as the eye can see.  And i know that if combat is all you really have, no matter how good it is, then this game just won't hold my attention for long.

Of course there is the fact that we already have so many examples of decent combat, even in MMO's.  So it's reasonable to trust that you might make something fun.

 

But what we don't have, is good examples of crafting, esp in MMO's.

It's almost always an afterthought, even when it isn't, it's still derivative hand-me-down garbage.  If you truly want to innovate, it won't be with combat.

It will be everything else that never ever get's innovated upon.

 

 

If combat is the 'bread and butter' of the game, then the saying goes "A man cannot live on bread alone".

This post makes me feel sad.  Seems like no progress has been made at all since January on this forum.    I don't think there has been any doubt for a very long time that the game was PvP centric.   Perhaps some have held onto the hope ( not sure why, perhaps the ppl that came here because of Koster did not get alot of the same early info?, not sure ) that the game would be centered around crafting.  I think Todd did a great job in taking the time to answer the question he was asked when he really didn't have to.  From what I can gather from his reply all systems are tied together, as they should be.  One is not more important than the other.  And all of them together will make a good ( great ) game.  Hopefully.  But as a PvP centric game it make sense to perfect that first.  IF the game was marketed as a crafting centric game , well sure , I would be questioning the lack of info too.  

 

One thing I have learned in these last months is to never become so attached to your ideas and what you think something should/would/could be.   It's Crowfall being created by ACE.  Their game.  We just want to play it.  :)


Maybe it not about the happy ending. Maybe it's about the story.

RIP Doc Gonzo "to anyone...speak your mind...defend your position...be prepared for an Argument and enjoy the process of the discussion...that's all part of any good Forum experience"

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Basically a "we don't know what it will look like yet, and not for awhile" answer.

Which is at least honest enough for me to accept.... for now.

 

But just to be clear, this does nothing to resolve any of my concerns regarding crafting, and non-combat in general.

And that's where the buck stops with me, literally.  I won't financially invest anymore then I have because quite simply I don't trust you enough not to screw this up.  I only invested initially because I believed in the concept of funding an MMO via crowd-sourcing, regardless whether or not the game was for me.

As long as it is able to get to market, then the investment was worth it.

 

 

Anymore then that however requires me to be sold on the idea itself, and so far I remain unconvinced.

So far it's yet another combat simulator on a slightly larger scale then most anything I've already seen.  And I honestly could not really care less about that.

I've got combat games, combat games as far as the eye can see.  And i know that if combat is all you really have, no matter how good it is, then this game just won't hold my attention for long.

Of course there is the fact that we already have so many examples of decent combat, even in MMO's.  So it's reasonable to trust that you might make something fun.

 

But what we don't have, is good examples of crafting, esp in MMO's.

It's almost always an afterthought, even when it isn't, it's still derivative hand-me-down garbage.  If you truly want to innovate, it won't be with combat.

It will be everything else that never ever get's innovated upon.

 

 

If combat is the 'bread and butter' of the game, then the saying goes "A man cannot live on bread alone".

 

You're simply ignoring the answers.  If you don't trust them further, which is reasonable, then don't give them more money until you do.  You'd be in the same position as everyone else who's waiting to give them money until they see more.  You can't really believe that holding money over their head is going to encourage them to change their entire development process do you?  I mean, it's a thinly veiled threat.

They've said they're working on it when they get to that part of the development process.  If you like it then, then go have fun and give it all!

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Basically a "we don't know what it will look like yet, and not for awhile" answer.

Which is at least honest enough for me to accept.... for now.

 

But just to be clear, this does nothing to resolve any of my concerns regarding crafting, and non-combat in general.

And that's where the buck stops with me, literally.  I won't financially invest anymore then I have because quite simply I don't trust you enough not to screw this up.  I only invested initially because I believed in the concept of funding an MMO via crowd-sourcing, regardless whether or not the game was for me.

As long as it is able to get to market, then the investment was worth it.

 

 

Anymore then that however requires me to be sold on the idea itself, and so far I remain unconvinced.

So far it's yet another combat simulator on a slightly larger scale then most anything I've already seen.  And I honestly could not really care less about that.

I've got combat games, combat games as far as the eye can see.  And i know that if combat is all you really have, no matter how good it is, then this game just won't hold my attention for long.

Of course there is the fact that we already have so many examples of decent combat, even in MMO's.  So it's reasonable to trust that you might make something fun.

 

But what we don't have, is good examples of crafting, esp in MMO's.

It's almost always an afterthought, even when it isn't, it's still derivative hand-me-down garbage.  If you truly want to innovate, it won't be with combat.

It will be everything else that never ever get's innovated upon.

 

 

If combat is the 'bread and butter' of the game, then the saying goes "A man cannot live on bread alone".

 

These are very valid concerns. Our crafter player base should not be taking the backseat in game development, ESPECIALLY with a legend like Mr.Koster himself on board! Although, I do think you're coming across a little harsh, however, and that might not help your cause. I think if you keep asking really, really polite, you'll get a dev answer eventually...Just like oridi did! Just keep asking (So that it doesn't get droned out by all the combat talk)!

 

You know what they say, the squeaky wheel gets the oil.

 

 

Giggles


☆ We are in a positive posting drought, so just post. Be the change you want the forums to be. Go wild. Just follow your positive posting star. ☆
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Considering Metagame content covers stuff to do indirectly and directly with the overarching balance of the game in of itself, rather than the balance of classes themselves, but the actual game, it has long standing impacts with implications of which will always be irreversible, especially so in economy driven games, especially so in a hardcore game, especially so in a player created world.

 

This sort of stuff rivals the combat in a game in importance and more often than not, everything from the crafting mechanics, the items made by players, the items dropped by mobs to the costs of in game materials, taxes on player owned land to all other meta content makes or brakes a game, especially so in sandbox games and hardcore games.

 

A game could have absolutely awesome combat, absolutely awesome fighting verses mobs or other players, awesome PvP, awesome gameplay objective scenario play and combat systems ... but could have terrible crafting systems, terrible loot tables, pay2win elements and to top it all off, extremely grind infused crafting mechanics and drop mechanics which ultimately negatively impact gameplay on levels which would lead to people leaving a game in droves simply over that alone.  These sorts of lazy mistakes have doomed games in the past, where the designers either didn't take into account every possible angle, or simply choose to make the meta game simplistic, obvious and a grind.

 

Know what a good Metagame is to me?  A Metagame which allows people to pull off "get rich quick schemes", or find other ways than your most obvious ways to make bank.

 

Perfect example, the system in EVE Online, there are more ways to make ISK, other than Mining, Exploration, Ratting and Mission Running ... way way way more.  

Such as:  Freight, Scamming, Fraud, Stealing, Narcotics, Many forms of Piracy, Many forms of Extortion, Taxes, Renting (although you can't do that anymore :( ), Can Flipping, Sector Flipping, Ganking, Camping, Trades & Shares, Blueprints, Reselling Loyalty Point items ... etc etc etc etc etc etc etc

 

Then there is the markets revolving around rare commodity trades of items and contracts.

 

The MetaGame for EVE is so complex that CCP had to relearn parts of their own game before they could actually start patching and fixing some really old stuff because apparently a lot of things in the game pre-2006 is poorly documented.

 

Going down the box full of sand with a giant control console in front of you covered in nobs and dials as opposed to the giant themepark with a giant green start button for a control system takes a lot of skill, dedication, design brilliance and effort, but at the same time only requires a small number of people to get done, as you are not spending money on all the hired staff required to build, erect and paint shiny colours all over all them rides.  Instead you have a small bunch of dedicated passionate people building one kick ass sandbox control console. :P

 

So think on the reason, why are there so few updates?

Because if they showed us, all we would see now is the work in progress on the wiring of that control console, which would confuse anyone who hasn't been involved in design processes.  (No offense)


My hubris is the size of a 2 by 4 nailed to the side of a YF-12 jet barrel rolling into a volcano piloted by a Tyrannosaurus Rex.

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This post makes me feel sad.  Seems like no progress has been made at all since January on this forum.    I don't think there has been any doubt for a very long time that the game was PvP centric.   Perhaps some have held onto the hope ( not sure why, perhaps the ppl that came here because of Koster did not get alot of the same early info?, not sure ) that the game would be centered around crafting.  I think Todd did a great job in taking the time to answer the question he was asked when he really didn't have to.  From what I can gather from his reply all systems are tied together, as they should be.  One is not more important than the other.  And all of them together will make a good ( great ) game.  Hopefully.  But as a PvP centric game it make sense to perfect that first.  IF the game was marketed as a crafting centric game , well sure , I would be questioning the lack of info too.  

 

One thing I have learned in these last months is to never become so attached to your ideas and what you think something should/would/could be.   It's Crowfall being created by ACE.  Their game.  We just want to play it.   :)

First you misunderstand my position.  No crap it's a PvP game, but if that is all they have, go make a bloody MOBA or something dedicated to that.  A MMO is more then just that, they are meant to be perpetual experiences, often to the exclusion of everything else.

If they want to grab and hold onto players long term, there going to need bloody more then just combat.  Doing any single activity no matter how enjoyable with grow old when that's the only real thing you have.

This is why you have puzzles in God of War, to break up the combat.

 

However just having other things often isn't enough, if said thing are done poorly.  And crafting is almost always done poorly.

I am not giving them a free pass on this one just because the game is PvP focused.

 

You're simply ignoring the answers.  If you don't trust them further, which is reasonable, then don't give them more money until you do.  You'd be in the same position as everyone else who's waiting to give them money until they see more.  You can't really believe that holding money over their head is going to encourage them to change their entire development process do you?  I mean, it's a thinly veiled threat.

They've said they're working on it when they get to that part of the development process.  If you like it then, then go have fun and give it all!

And second, as with the above quote, I am not ignoring anything.

They didn't really give an answer, they stated their position and that no quantitative progress has been made nor likely would it for some months.

That's a punt, not an answer.  The substance of my concerns remains unchanged.  

And while I am willing to be patient, a least for now, I'm also stating why I am currently unwilling to give them any more of my money.  They can do whatever the hell they want with that information.

 

I'm just not as easily impressed by 'Oh, we have combat'.... you and everybody else mate, grab a ticket and stand in line for my attention.

Edited by yoh

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First you misunderstand my position.  No crap it's a PvP game, but if that is all they have, go make a bloody MOBA or something dedicated to that.  A MMO is more then just that, they are meant to be perpetual experiences, often to the exclusion of everything else.

If they want to grab and hold onto players long term, there going to need bloody more then just combat.  Doing any single activity no matter how enjoyable with grow old when that's the only real thing you have.

This is why you have puzzles in God of War, to break up the combat.

 

However just having other things often isn't enough, if said thing are done poorly.  And crafting is almost always done poorly.

I am not giving them a free pass on this one just because the game is PvP focused.

 

And second, as with the above quote, I am not ignoring anything.

They didn't really give an answer, they stated their position and that no quantitative progress has been made nor likely would it for some months.

That's a punt, not an answer.  The substance of my concerns remains unchanged.  

And while I am willing to be patient, a least for now, I'm also stating why I am currently unwilling to give them any more of my money.  They can do whatever the hell they want with that information.

 

I'm just not as easily impressed by 'Oh, we have combat'.... you and everybody else mate, grab a ticket and stand in line for my attention.

I understand.  Todds answer was not was you were looking for.  Sometimes that happens when a response is forced.  Whenever any of us decide it's time to force anything we should be prepared for the answer to not be to our liking.  If you are that concerned your decision to not give them any more is a more than fair call.  I think Todd once said he was completely understanding of that position.

 

That being said they can't  give you or anyone specifics they don't have.  Last I knew there were no assurances being handed out to anyone. 


Maybe it not about the happy ending. Maybe it's about the story.

RIP Doc Gonzo "to anyone...speak your mind...defend your position...be prepared for an Argument and enjoy the process of the discussion...that's all part of any good Forum experience"

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I understand.  Todds answer was not was you were looking for.  Sometimes that happens when a response is forced.  Whenever any of us decide it's time to force anything we should be prepared for the answer to not be to our liking.  If you are that concerned your decision to not give them any more is a more than fair call.  I think Todd once said he was completely understanding of that position.

 

That being said they can't  give you or anyone specifics they don't have.  Last I knew there were no assurances being handed out to anyone. 

It was the expected answer, I'm under no illusion that they had anything nailed down that they were just not sharing with us.

And I'm honestly not even looking for specifics at this point in development, because obviously they don't have them.

I'm more looking for intentions, for the pie-in-the-sky idea of what their crafting might look like beyond the exceedingly vague notions that we've been given.

Like the difference between "Having combat" and "Having action based combat" specifically.

 

Of course this is something that's going to need time to bake, but I would like to at least know what the ingredients are.

Simple things like, is it going to have gameplay?  

What if any other games serve as reference material? (ie looking outside of the MMO industry.)  

Are they willing to innovate and iterate on crafting?

 

Cuz what they've given us could mean that crafting is yet another tacked on afterthought as every other MMO has done, and if that indeed would be the case, I'd rather not have it.  I'd rather have no crafting, then bad crafting.  Save their money and our time, and use thous resources on something else instead.

 

 

PS, I like your sig.

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Your version of the sequence... here is mine:

 

1. You post a thread in Community Ask & Answer - The post is asking for an update on crafting. It has been a few months since your bait post about needing more crafting information. Reasonable post, wrong area. Last line in the post is pretty bad though, basically saying all the crafting ideas are worthless, yuck. Why not be creative in the meantime and perhaps they will pick over some suggestions you had?

 

2. The community answers you and you didn't like the answer and asked for a developer response as though you are owed something directly. I remember when DM Brandon came in here with the same attitude and he got laughed on the forums, and rightly so. No one is entitled to anything around here; not you and especially not me.

Basically skipped after the end of that last sentence thanks for saving me time, I'll take your advice. I don't think OP is being entitled for asking for an update on his favourite systems in this game, sounds like some people are just extremely arrogant and like to accuse others of being entitled while being self-opinionated and condescending.

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...What Pann said is technically true, but it doesn't paint the entire picture.  Let me clarify.

 

By 'the design team', she means 'Blair and Tully'.  Yes, they are focused (almost) entirely on combat.  They are down in the trenches, defining powers and testing the build and pulling together all the disparate parts (UI, powers, attributes, item stats, etc).

 

I'm not working on any of that.

 

I spend around 50% to 75% of my week (an estimate, but not a bad one) working on the overall design architecture.  When I interface with Raph, that's what we discuss: my architectural blueprints for the game (which I will share with you guys at some point, they are a tool that I use to visualize the game; basically a handful of interlocking flow diagram that show how currencies move between systems.  Currencies meaning everything from 'gold' to 'stamina' to 'player characters').  

 

MY focus is almost exlusively on the metagame level, i.e. the things that tie the game together: world construction, resource spawning and transport, item sinks and decay, stronghold upkeep/destruction/repair/taxes, sieging, economy, user flow between the worlds, training and blessing.  

 

...and yes, of course, crafting.

 

Most of the stuff that I work on, you guys won't see for months.  That doesn't mean it's "on hold," it IS being worked on, but at a very high level.  I can't tell you "what the standard deviation of the quality level of XYZ resource" is, because that's details.  that will come later (and not from me).

 

The upshot of this approach is: yes, from a community standpoint, you'll be seeing almost exclusively combat-related stuff between now and the milestone, because that's what is coming out, first.   The other stuff needs time to bake.  Once the combat foundation is laid, we'll move on to the next part.  and the next part.  and the next.  

 

Until we have a game.

 

Todd

ACE

Thank you for taking the time to respond, much appreciated.

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Basically skipped after the end of that last sentence thanks for saving me time, I'll take your advice. I don't think OP is being entitled for asking for an update on his favourite systems in this game, sounds like some people are just extremely arrogant and like to accuse others of being entitled while being self-opinionated and condescending.

I guess you missed her other posts about this, that is chill. Hey, welcome to the community though!

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While I think I agree with you, perhaps sense would be a good thing to make next time. You know for the Meta... (no offense).

 

Would you understand Flowcharts, Graphs and Spreadsheets better?

 

Because I'd be happy to throw together some to give examples of how Metagame mechanics, how they link to the game rules and get drafted for games using a quickly thrown together sudo example. :)

 

Does mean I need to re-install Xmind though. :P

 

The devs already told us why they can't show us any info on it yet anyway.


My hubris is the size of a 2 by 4 nailed to the side of a YF-12 jet barrel rolling into a volcano piloted by a Tyrannosaurus Rex.

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Would you understand Flowcharts, Graphs and Spreadsheets better?

 

Because I'd be happy to throw together some to give examples of how Metagame mechanics, how they link to the game rules and get drafted for games using a quickly thrown together sudo example. :)

 

Does mean I need to re-install Xmind though. :P

 

The devs already told us why they can't show us any info on it yet anyway.

 

 

I think your last few posts have been a passive aggressive attempt to feel superior or incite a response. It really has no place on this forum, and is not contributing positively to any conversation. I think you need to tone it down, so that we can build a stronger community, maybe people will listen and can respond to you in a positive way. We're trying to build a community here, not segregate. As always, hugs and giggles.


☆ We are in a positive posting drought, so just post. Be the change you want the forums to be. Go wild. Just follow your positive posting star. ☆
☆:*´¨`*:.•.¸¸.•´¯`•.♥.•´¯`•.¸¸.•..:*´¨`*:.☆

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Would you understand Flowcharts, Graphs and Spreadsheets better?

 

Because I'd be happy to throw together some to give examples of how Metagame mechanics, how they link to the game rules and get drafted for games using a quickly thrown together sudo example. :)

 

Does mean I need to re-install Xmind though. :P

 

The devs already told us why they can't show us any info on it yet anyway.

I would love to see some charts and such, perhaps they will be more coherent!

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I would love to see some charts and such, perhaps they will be more coherent!

 

I completely agree, thank you for the wonderful suggestion psyctooth and putting in the work to produce them! No rush on them though, just whenever you get around to them I know the community would love to see them. We have plenty of time waiting for such an amazing game. So blessed to have you in our community, thank you.


☆ We are in a positive posting drought, so just post. Be the change you want the forums to be. Go wild. Just follow your positive posting star. ☆
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As I was reading over these wonderful and insightful responses, once again,  I noticed that the one that wanted them most has not even posted a response.  If it wasn't for her persistence none of us would have the info we now have.   I hope she is ok and will be as excited as we were to get this info.

 

Thanks again Todd and Pann for taking time out of your busy schedules to respond to the needs of the community!


Maybe it not about the happy ending. Maybe it's about the story.

RIP Doc Gonzo "to anyone...speak your mind...defend your position...be prepared for an Argument and enjoy the process of the discussion...that's all part of any good Forum experience"

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