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Crafting Update

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Basically a "we don't know what it will look like yet, and not for awhile" answer.

Which is at least honest enough for me to accept.... for now.

 

But just to be clear, this does nothing to resolve any of my concerns regarding crafting, and non-combat in general.

And that's where the buck stops with me, literally.  I won't financially invest anymore then I have because quite simply I don't trust you enough not to screw this up.  I only invested initially because I believed in the concept of funding an MMO via crowd-sourcing, regardless whether or not the game was for me.

As long as it is able to get to market, then the investment was worth it.

 

 

Anymore then that however requires me to be sold on the idea itself, and so far I remain unconvinced.

So far it's yet another combat simulator on a slightly larger scale then most anything I've already seen.  And I honestly could not really care less about that.

I've got combat games, combat games as far as the eye can see.  And i know that if combat is all you really have, no matter how good it is, then this game just won't hold my attention for long.

Of course there is the fact that we already have so many examples of decent combat, even in MMO's.  So it's reasonable to trust that you might make something fun.

 

But what we don't have, is good examples of crafting, esp in MMO's.

It's almost always an afterthought, even when it isn't, it's still derivative hand-me-down garbage.  If you truly want to innovate, it won't be with combat.

It will be everything else that never ever get's innovated upon.

 

 

If combat is the 'bread and butter' of the game, then the saying goes "A man cannot live on bread alone".

What the tap-dancing custard?

 

So let me just try and wrap my head around this for my own clarification...

 

You want a game that is unabashedly marketed as a PvP/GvG game to pave the way for an innovative crafting experience and that's why you have pledged?  Or did I misread that?  


 

Er, what's "edging"?

 

 

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What the tap-dancing custard?

 

So let me just try and wrap my head around this for my own clarification...

 

You want a game that is unabashedly marketed as a PvP/GvG game to pave the way for an innovative crafting experience and that's why you have pledged?  Or did I misread that?  

Considering everything is destructible and no piece of equipment will survive an entire campaign, this alone means that crafting will be a huge part of Crowfall. Your most important players will NOT be the pure PvPers...a guild will thrive or fall on the skill of their crafters and ability to get their hands on resources. 

 

So...it isn't a stretch at all to think that crafting will have some innovation in this game. 


"Lawful Good does not always mean Lawful Nice."

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What the tap-dancing custard?

 

So let me just try and wrap my head around this for my own clarification...

 

You want a game that is unabashedly marketed as a PvP/GvG game to pave the way for an innovative crafting experience and that's why you have pledged?  Or did I misread that?  

No, you got it entirely wrong.

If you can't wrap your brain around it, that's your problem.

I plainly said that I only initially pledged because of the idea of crowdfunding an MMO, as I deem it the only real way to get innovation in this stagnate industry.

It honestly had nothing to do with what the game was about.

 

But now that I am here, if they want any more from me, they have to sell me on the idea of the game itself.

They said "We want to innovate" and that "crafting will be used to create almost every item" ie, it's a big, core mechanic.

If they are going to innovate, guess what, it's not going to be with combat.  It's going to be with all the auxiliary systems surrounding combat, including crafting.

 

They have the ability and the drive to innovate, that is a position they firmly planted their flag in.

And so I expect them to.... ya'know, innovate.  And there is no more fertile ground for innovation in this industry then craft.

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They have the ability and the drive to innovate, that is a position they firmly planted their flag in.

And so I expect them to.... ya'know, innovate.  And there is no more fertile ground for innovation in this industry then craft.

What kind of innovation are you looking for though? A different crafting UI? Removal of RNG? Are you looking for a crafting mini- game?

 

In the end it will be you have so and so ingredients and you click a button. How does skill become involved in that?


PvE is like water to my whiskey. Don't water down my whiskey.- Ronald Reagan

 

Don't be a custard gonzo.- Abraham Lincoln

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What kind of innovation are you looking for though? A different crafting UI? Removal of RNG? Are you looking for a crafting mini- game?

 

In the end it will be you have so and so ingredients and you click a button. How does skill become involved in that?

Personally, I want a complete departure from the vending machine gameplay of current MMO crafting design.

I want the 'act' of crafting to be actually enjoyable.  You can still have your excel spreadsheets for item combinations and recipes, and all the depth there in, but the process of actually making the items should be far more then just a simple button press.

 

A mini-game is a start, but I was thinking an actual game. (since people seem to assign 'mini-game' a negative connotation for some god awful reason)

I usually point to Cooking Mama as an example of good crafting in a game.  It's fun to cook in that game.

It could be better, and it's not as much of as intellectual pursuit as I would like for a crafting experience.  I do want a different experience then what combat has to offer.

 

I want to think through problems, rather then react to prompts.

For example like Adventure Quest's match three combat.  Using gear, skills, classes, etc to change the way you play and complete various puzzles.

How this could apply to crafting, is that there is a very different way in which you could craft vs somebody else, even when crafting the same item.

Which in turn could change the quality of the resulting item, and the speed in which you do it.

 

Ie, a crafting system with skill.

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Personally, I want a complete departure from the vending machine gameplay of current MMO crafting design.

I want the 'act' of crafting to be actually enjoyable.  You can still have your excel spreadsheets for item combinations and recipes, and all the depth there in, but the process of actually making the items should be far more then just a simple button press.

 

A mini-game is a start, but I was thinking an actual game. (since people seem to assign 'mini-game' a negative connotation for some god awful reason)

I usually point to Cooking Mama as an example of good crafting in a game.  It's fun to cook in that game.

It could be better, and it's not as much of as intellectual pursuit as I would like for a crafting experience.  I do want a different experience then what combat has to offer.

 

I want to think through problems, rather then react to prompts.

For example like Adventure Quest's match three combat.  Using gear, skills, classes, etc to change the way you play and complete various puzzles.

How this could apply to crafting, is that there is a very different way in which you could craft vs somebody else, even when crafting the same item.

Which in turn could change the quality of the resulting item, and the speed in which you do it.

 

Ie, a crafting system with skill.

Okay. Im sorry if im being stupid, but can you walk me through step by step what you have in mind. I never played cooking mama and the only game I enjoyed crafting in was A Realm Reborn which was like a mini-game where you had a number of swings and each swing filled a gauge and the object was to get as much quality in without filling the gauge as if you did then failed the craft.


PvE is like water to my whiskey. Don't water down my whiskey.- Ronald Reagan

 

Don't be a custard gonzo.- Abraham Lincoln

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Okay. Im sorry if im being stupid, but can you walk me through step by step what you have in mind. I never played cooking mama and the only game I enjoyed crafting in was A Realm Reborn which was like a mini-game where you had a number of swings and each swing filled a gauge and the object was to get as much quality in without filling the gauge as if you did then failed the craft.

Gah, I played A Realm Reborn's crafting.... it's not very good.

That's the kind of 'Mini-game' people have a problem with, since it is transparently not made to be fun.  It's just tacks onto and already existing system.

 

I will explain how Cooking Mama works, but it might be best to show you also. 

To note however, this isn't my preferred set of mechanics, but it's still a far cry better then anything we ever see in an MMO.

 

 

Each dish, or item in this case, is a series of steps.

Anywhere from as little a 3 to 15 or more.

Each step is a mini game of it's own, often with a time limit of about 30-40 seconds. But can be done in less if you play faster.

The mechanics tend to be pretty straight forward, but often rely on timing, eye hand coordination, and multitasking.

 

Like crack these eggs into this bowl, stir this mixture together without spilling it, fry these vegetables but remember to turn them over and not burn them, etc.

The game has you reenact actions you would expect to take if you were actually cooking via simple but appealing game design, and good presentation.

Trick is that your never doing any single same action for too long to get bored of it until your whisked onto your next step.  Every recipe is different, so rarely do you feel like your asked to do the same thing, just in a different context.

This plus time limit and scoring gives you a certain degree of mastery, and something to strive to improve on.

 

Only criticism I would have of it, is that you rarely have to think about what you are doing, and there really isn't a 'different' way to play then everybody else.

Still, it is excellent and good fun.

Edited by yoh

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Gah, I played A Realm Reborn's crafting.... it's not very good.

That's the kind of 'Mini-game' people have a problem with, since it is transparently not made to be fun.  It's just tacks onto and already existing system.

 

I will explain how Cooking Mama works, but it might be best to show you also. 

To note however, this isn't my preferred set of mechanics, but it's still a far cry better then anything we ever see in an MMO.

 

 

Each dish, or item in this case, is a series of steps.

Anywhere from as little a 3 to 15 or more.

Each step is a mini game of it's own, often with a time limit of about 30-40 seconds. But can be done in less if you play faster.

The mechanics tend to be pretty straight forward, but often rely on timing, eye hand coordination, and multitasking.

 

Like crack these eggs into this bowl, stir this mixture together without spilling it, fry these vegetables but remember to turn them over and not burn them, etc.

The game has you reenact actions you would expect to take if you were actually cooking via simple but appealing game design, and good presentation.

Trick is that your never doing any single same action for too long to get bored of it until your whisked onto your next step.  Every recipe is different, so rarely do you feel like your asked to do the same thing, just in a different context.

This plus time limit and scoring gives you a certain degree of mastery, and something to strive to improve on.

 

Only criticism I would have of it, is that you rarely have to think about what you are doing, and there really isn't a 'different' way to play then everybody else.

Still, it is excellent and good fun.

You consider that fun? I personally consider that HORRIBLE.

 

Crafting is not a timed thing. Hell the best swords in the world took an entire season to craft. For example, the infamous blood swords for Japanese Shogun took on average 2 to 3 YEARS to finish. The Emperor's sword (which was worn by the samurai charged with teaching, advising, and protecting the emperor) was a marvel of crafting that took 10 years to complete.  

 

Speed in crafting anything in the real world always leads to inferior products. Thus any timers ensure you have turned it into a huge departure from what you honestly are trying to showcase. 

 

For example, have you ever tried your hand at smithing? You do the same task over and over again for days on end before you EVER move to the next step. Ever made a real bow? Not just a branch with a string but actually plane the wood and carve it, bow it over and over again untill you get the shape you want along with the strength of the wood...as bending it in one go destroys the fibers and ruins the entire piece. A good bow can take a week of work to finish satisfactory, though you can work on several at once...a GREAT bow takes longer...of course and anyone going to war wants a bow designed to the best...not a simple hunting bow. 

 

I'd like an expansive crafting experience devoid of RNG as much as possible while making it what it is, an intellectual's persuit in which you need to know how far you can push a material before you ruin the piece. Not a hand-eye click fest. When I am in the mood for hand-eye co-ordination I go play an FPS and snipe people using handguns (scopes just make it too easy), sometimes I go on kill streaks, sometimes I just can't hit my targets but it is still good fun. Crowfall will require some co-ordination sure, but head shots won't hurt anyone anymore than body shots so the co-ordination needed is rather limited, no reason to add more in a genre that was never designed around it in the first place. 


"Lawful Good does not always mean Lawful Nice."

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You consider that fun? I personally consider that HORRIBLE.

 

Crafting is not a timed thing. Hell the best swords in the world took an entire season to craft. For example, the infamous blood swords for Japanese Shogun took on average 2 to 3 YEARS to finish. The Emperor's sword (which was worn by the samurai charged with teaching, advising, and protecting the emperor) was a marvel of crafting that took 10 years to complete.  

 

Speed in crafting anything in the real world always leads to inferior products. Thus any timers ensure you have turned it into a huge departure from what you honestly are trying to showcase. 

 

For example, have you ever tried your hand at smithing? You do the same task over and over again for days on end before you EVER move to the next step. Ever made a real bow? Not just a branch with a string but actually plane the wood and carve it, bow it over and over again untill you get the shape you want along with the strength of the wood...as bending it in one go destroys the fibers and ruins the entire piece. A good bow can take a week of work to finish satisfactory, though you can work on several at once...a GREAT bow takes longer...of course and anyone going to war wants a bow designed to the best...not a simple hunting bow. 

 

I'd like an expansive crafting experience devoid of RNG as much as possible while making it what it is, an intellectual's persuit in which you need to know how far you can push a material before you ruin the piece. Not a hand-eye click fest. When I am in the mood for hand-eye co-ordination I go play an FPS and snipe people using handguns (scopes just make it too easy), sometimes I go on kill streaks, sometimes I just can't hit my targets but it is still good fun. Crowfall will require some co-ordination sure, but head shots won't hurt anyone anymore than body shots so the co-ordination needed is rather limited, no reason to add more in a genre that was never designed around it in the first place. 

Your 'point' is entirely moot.

 

Your not honestly saying you want actual, realistic crafting that takes hundreds of hours just to complete a single item, so it's irrelevant.

My point is that engaging gameplay is always better then non-existent gameplay.  Now Cooking Mama style gameplay may not be your cup of tea, fine, doesn't mean it isn't fun for others, or still better then having no gameplay whatsoever.

 

And I even point out, several times that Cooking Mama gameplay isn't what I would prefer ultimately, only that it is an example of crafting done well in a game and is a giant step up from what we normally get in MMO's.

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Instead of hundreds of hours, make crafting that ultra strong armor take days...you must actually put forth time into the craft. Spend some stamina working on it than move on, 12 hours later you can work on it again. In the meantime your maximum stamina is deminished. 

 

Something, anything, that adds time and sacrifice to make the good stuff...is a good thing. 


"Lawful Good does not always mean Lawful Nice."

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Instead of hundreds of hours, make crafting that ultra strong armor take days...you must actually put forth time into the craft. Spend some stamina working on it than move on, 12 hours later you can work on it again. In the meantime your maximum stamina is deminished. 

 

Something, anything, that adds time and sacrifice to make the good stuff...is a good thing. 

 

Thats a different way to handle it. Having some sort of temp stat/stamina/HP/mana lost for a given time. That would increase the value of some of the "high end" gear. So it cost a ton to learn the skill/discipline gather the resources AND time to make it. I feel that would add even more value to crafters.

 

I'm curious what our hardcore crafters think of these kinds of sinks. Granted I wouldn't suggestion for all or most but rather some of the few "high-end" gear. Don't want it to turn into some mobile game lol

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Oh yeah, I meant the high end stuff. Frankly siege weaponry should also come with the debuff so you have to plan for it.


"Lawful Good does not always mean Lawful Nice."

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