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Dakyn

Cheat Detection

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I haven't been able to find a thread about this, so forgive me if I am making a duplicate.

 

I am concerned about how much work the Dev's have put into cheat detection. It seemed like Darkfall wasn't even out of beta and people could buy all sorts of cheating software for the game.

 

There was Radar, Making walls invisible, travelling underground, teleporting, run speed hacks, lag switching, and sticky backing.

 

It made the game pretty miserable for a while for non-cheaters and Aventurine took a fair bit  of time to properly add code for cheat detection. Even then, they were slow to ban players (although eventually they did set up a web page listing the people they banned from the game along with the reason why and the guild they belonged to. - it was very popular).

 

I guess my question to the Dev's is, are you doing everything you can to prevent these sort of things so they don't ruin the game from the start?

 

Powerful cheat detection is very important for games these days. 

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It's still very early in the game development cycle, so at this point the answer to "how much work have the devs put into cheat detection" is probably about zero.

 

With that said, both of the founders have significant experience from prior games where cheating was an issue, and I'm confident they're learned a few lessons from those experiences. By the time the game gets to live release I'm sure there will be significant anticheating measures in place.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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Good call Adall. It looks like there are some anticheat assets in the Unity store, such as this one for example. So we know that option exists if ACE feels like going to outside resources for help.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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I would also assume a licensed engine like Unity has some protection and tools already in place!

 

Unity doesn't have any type of protection built in at all. There are some that are for sale on the Unity Asset store, but they are for general purpose and for something like CF, ACE would be making some type of in house protection for the game. The cheat detection they most likely make is going to be on server side.

Edited by Nex

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Unity doesn't have any type of protection built in at all. There are some that are for sale on the Unity Asset store, but they are for general purpose and for something like CF, ACE would be making some type of in house protection for the game. The cheat detection they most likely make is going to be on server side.

Very interesting. I could see them puchasing some of those assets. This is a small studio, and developing in house tools can be expensive. Perhaps even contract out to a third party? Options are on the table for sure.

 

They should push for good security against hacks and script kiddies though, this is a competitive game after all.

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Unity doesn't have any type of protection built in at all. There are some that are for sale on the Unity Asset store, but they are for general purpose and for something like CF, ACE would be making some type of in house protection for the game. The cheat detection they most likely make is going to be on server side.

 

Unfortunately, alot of cheating takes place on the client side. For example, Radar uses the data packets sent with player location info. the client may not render or show the player because they are behind something, but the data still gets sent since they could pop out and attack the other player. Also wall hacks like removing the textures from a wall or building would allow you to "see" someone even though they cannot see you.

 

Most hacks that I saw in DarkFall were client side hacks, not server side. The client is usually the weak link when it comes to cheating.

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Unfortunately, alot of cheating takes place on the client side. For example, Radar uses the data packets sent with player location info. the client may not render or show the player because they are behind something, but the data still gets sent since they could pop out and attack the other player. Also wall hacks like removing the textures from a wall or building would allow you to "see" someone even though they cannot see you.

 

Most hacks that I saw in DarkFall were client side hacks, not server side. The client is usually the weak link when it comes to cheating.

 

 

^ this


OQa1xvz.png?1

lol ok.. I wonder if I'll still be able to steal directly from people's inventories.. hrmmm

;)Twitch - Twitter

RIP DOC GONZO

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Very interesting. I could see them puchasing some of those assets. This is a small studio, and developing in house tools can be expensive. Perhaps even contract out to a third party? Options are on the table for sure.

 

They should push for good security against hacks and script kiddies though, this is a competitive game after all.

 

Seeing how they are using Unity it is very hard for good security on the client side because Unity uses the .Net Framework which is very easy to decompile. You can type into google right now "decompile unity" and you can find may different websites and thread around the web that tell you ways of doing it. I've done this with other games that were created in Unity to see the game code and learn how they did something. Now there is something ACE can do that will make it harder for people to decompile the game and see how functions work and see the game code. They can reference some .dlls that were created into a different programming language that is harder to decompile which houses important functions and game logic.

 

Now contracting out to a third party is a very very gray area for ACE to look into. A lot of third party anti-cheating toolkits are ultimately rootkits that a lot of people have problems with because they do things that a lot of the time they shouldn't. A lot fo them keep track of what you type in (a keylogger) when the game is open, so lets say you alt-tab out of the game and log into your bank website to check the balance... Oops they now have your username and password for your bank account. There have been many times where a third party anti-cheating toolkit deletes things off people computers because it thought it was a hack. Oh and biggest of them all... a lot of false reports that a player is cheating, but they aren't and the program see a unknown program running it doesn't know and reports it as a hacking tool. Plus most of the third party ant-cheating toolkits are easy to bypass and people who are going to cheat and just going to bypass them. If ACE were to use nProtect GameGuard, XTrap or other anti-cheating programs, for me I would really think about getting a refund because friends and I had very hard times with them in the pass and they are just more trouble for what they do.

 

Unfortunately, alot of cheating takes place on the client side. For example, Radar uses the data packets sent with player location info. the client may not render or show the player because they are behind something, but the data still gets sent since they could pop out and attack the other player. Also wall hacks like removing the textures from a wall or building would allow you to "see" someone even though they cannot see you.

 

Most hacks that I saw in DarkFall were client side hacks, not server side. The client is usually the weak link when it comes to cheating.

 

Someone is always going to find a way to cheat the system, so ACE can do everything in their power to stop it, but someone is oging to find a way to cheat. ^ read what I post before this to learn what ACE can do to try and stop cheating.

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I honestly think Crowfall is going to need a GM or maybe a few on hand that can quickly ban someone on the spot if needed. One person can log onto an account they don't care about with a VPN and do all sorts of damage that could really ruin a campaign.

 

Literally one person could determine the outcome of an entire campaign if they had a few hours on some invincible account before getting banned. I wouldn't put it past some people to buy fresh accounts towards the end of a campaign to make sure their side won.

 

That's the downside of having a game where the players control almost everything. However with the amount of veteran game developers on the Artcraft team I'm sure they realize how crazy a cheater can change the tides in a game like this.

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I don't want third party software for this.  I could not even log into echo of souls because it would not recognize windows 10....Cheat software seems second rate to me.  Make a good action packed meaningful game with a good reporting feature and call it a day.  It is pretty easy to tell if someone is cheating..

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I think we can safely say it won't be as bad as darkfall

 

Never say never, It can always get worse!

 

Don't jinx the game before beta is even released.   :angry:

 

 

P.S. Knocks on wood.

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It's still very early in the game development cycle, so at this point the answer to "how much work have the devs put into cheat detection" is probably about zero.

 

With that said, both of the founders have significant experience from prior games where cheating was an issue, and I'm confident they're learned a few lessons from those experiences. By the time the game gets to live release I'm sure there will be significant anticheating measures in place.

 

The point is the game must be made from the ground up with anticheats in mind.  Maybe compile important parts of the game in the memory everytime the game loads?

 

 

The only reason why Darkfall Unholywars doesn't have any public working cheats is that there is not a large enough playerbase for a cheat company to make money making cheats for the game.  This is why DamnCheaters stopped making cheats for Darkfall.  They just weren't making any money off it.  

 

 

 

This will be a full loot MMO.  You shouldn't have to "report" a player after they killed you and took everything you have.  By then the damage is done.  The goods are transferred over to a clean account and the cheater doesn't care if he gets banned or not, just buy another account and hack again.  

 

Imagine a hacker with a throwaway account teleporting through walls to scout out a siege force?  

 

There WILL be people who will hack this game.  There will be people who cheat.  What matters is how ArtCraft deals with it.  

 

 

Rock....

 

No it is not always easy to tell if someone is cheating. 

 

You don't play too many competitive multiplayer games do you?

 

The vast majority of cheaters don't make there cheating obvious.  They just give themselves just enough of an edge to beat their opponent.  A good player with a slight cheating edge will always win when he chooses to.  

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The point is the game must be made from the ground up with anticheats in mind. 

 

Sure, but that doesn't mean that anticheats need to be coded and working for an internal-only dev sandbox. I'm sure the devs have anticheat measures in mind. I'm equally sure that they're not yet at a stage of code development where that matters.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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I remember when people could literally fly over/teleport in to the fortress and steal the orb in gw2 because there were few to none client-server positional checks. DFO had a ton of shenanigans, most of which were never fixed and the perpetrators never punished.

 

Cheaters gonna cheat. Not sure I have faith in any mmo of actually preventing it.

Edited by helix

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I remember when people could literally fly over/teleport in to the fortress and steal the orb in gw2 because there we're few to none client-server positional checks. DFO had a ton of shenanigans, most of which were never fixed and the perpetrators never punished.

 

Cheaters gonna cheat. Not sure I have faith in any mmo of actually preventing it.

 

DFO should never be used as an example of how a responsible company handles cheating. :D

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You generally aren't going to get great cheat detection during testing... all you can hope is that at launch they have decent anti-cheat with active GMs to quickly ban the blatant cheats... after that it's an ongoing process of reacting to whatever new cheats come out... 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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