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Vitalized

Prisoner of War Mechanic

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One of the more annoying factors I find in WvWvW pvp is the fact even though you killed the dude. He ends up reinforcing in about 30 seconds so it feels like even though you just dominated  on the field and took that tower/keep/castle you end up fighting the same zerg again in about a minute because of the respawn. I know some people enjoy endless slaughter, however I know people including myself find that boring.

 

My proposal is a Prisoner of War mechanic... give the option to detain in a small window time frame the enemy player. The requirements would have to be a CC applied at say 15% hp and lower then the option to capture happens.

 

The enemy player would be wisked away to your POW camp across the map. I heard these maps are huge. So make the sentence like 15 minutes long. the Enemy player gets released out of the gate. This allows for the Assailants or the Defenders to actually breath a bit and not make taking a keep from 15 players when you have 50 players a lot harder than it should be.

 

This opens up a lot more strategy into gameplay... example. You want a team of people to hit the weakpoints in the enemies backline while they are advancing on you. So before hand you have weapons and armor supplies cached by the camp, members get captured, and now you have a Shock team behind enemy lines. This causes the Endless Zerg to become less prevalent because now you have to actually think about throwing your endless wave of bodies at the enemy :o  Generals can decide is it better to risk having enemies behind you in about 15 minutes( Around 30 if the enemy decides to run back to your battle) or just kill them and deal with it. Example.... I should capture as many as possible because their respawn is so close and we are pushing deep into their territory... or Just kill them because the respawn is pretty far and I don't want to potentially have to fight on two fronts.

 

You could add features to the POW camps.... Guards can starve the prisoners so when they are released then they have a debuff. Prisoners can do riots and break out. You can have a SWAT team infiltrate the POW camp from the outside to supply weapons( I am along the lane that your gear should be stolen from you and you are naked in the POW camp),in a successful Prison riot you should get your gear back by raiding the nearby armory or if there is player camping at the prison entrance( Because this will happen) Then have a team set up a portal outside the gate to get your guild members back to friendly territory.

 

I am just tired of the zerg, and love more organized play. This allows more Organized guilds to be more effective then the 13 year old screaming Charge with 60 respawnable pawns.

 

Any thoughts on this?

Edited by Vitalized

PvE is like water to my whiskey. Don't water down my whiskey.- Ronald Reagan

 

Don't be a custard gonzo.- Abraham Lincoln

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A few problems I see with this idea...

 

1:  It's a whole different meta game.  I mean to implement all of these features seems like it could be a game in itself.  Don't think I'd want to see something like this simply because it'd detract too much from the game's main objectives.

 

2:  Someone is sent to prison means downtime.  No one wants that kind of downtime.  That kind of downtime in the game means people log off.  You want to discourage that as much as possible.  The idea kind of reminds me of a sleep mechanic someone had talked about a few months back.


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Given a choice between playing a prison game and logging off, many players will choose to log off. It's a very bad idea to incent your players not to play the game.

 

The problem of endless respawning can be solved much more simply and positively. One option would be to make it so whenever you respawn at a given graveyard, you cannot use that particular graveyard again for a set period of time. So if you're dying repeatedly in succession you're going to be spawning farther and farther away each time.

 

Also bear in mind that with gear dropping from your corpse you're going to have to go re-equip before hopping back into the fight anyway.

Edited by Jihan

Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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Why does this create a different meta game? The meta doesn't even seem to be established yet.

Also 15 minutes isn't terrible at all. Now if its like a couple of hours.... ya I wouldn't do that. The POW camp is just a feature that's more immersive to give people more strategy and prevent endless waves of reinforcements.

 

I'm under the impression Scribbles that you feel there will be constant action.... Like an arena blood bath just on a larger scale. I feel quite differently. From what I read there will be at like 40% of the time will be combat. This downtime wouldn't be gamebreaking.

 

In Archeage there was a prison system and was useful for those in faction guild wars. I have been stuck in those for up to an hour and that sucked terribly. 15 minutes though is really not that long... about 3 youtube videos and going to go refill your tea cup. I mentioned that the capture window is very small... to the point of if you have some guy just going berserk it will be impossible to capture since the target needs to be 15% hp  or lower and then a cc applied.

 

I mentioned the prison allows for Riots and potential break out and recovering your gear at the nearest armory after the breakout. So its not just sit in a cell and wait it out unless you want to.

 

I feel like this doesn't take away from the game but would actually add to it.  This system calls for smarter gameplay on larger scale battles rather than just throwing yourselves against each other.

 

I am all for the smarter gameplay and more immersive experience over the general respawn and repeat.

 

Make it so the player needs to server in game 15 minutes rather than log off. There are actions within the prison that can take place.

Jihan the option of respawning further away each time is a good and simple one. However wouldn't that be more frustrating to the player because for the bad player( we can assume since they constantly are dying) more punishing as they are losing more gear, greater time just getting to a destination, rinse and repeat for them. A POW camp doesn't punish them constantly, creates a different experience rather than the constant respawning, and gives them something else to focus on.

 

Mind you this isn't to replace death, just a feature to give Guild Leaders more strategic gameplay.  

 

Small window for capture, small amount of time in POW, New Experience.

Edited by Vitalized

PvE is like water to my whiskey. Don't water down my whiskey.- Ronald Reagan

 

Don't be a custard gonzo.- Abraham Lincoln

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However wouldn't that be more frustrating to the player because for the bad player( we can assume since they constantly are dying) more punishing as they are losing more gear, greater time just getting to a destination, rinse and repeat for them.

 

We want to encourage bad players to stop doing the things that make them bad players.

 

"...you get killed over and over again, that doesn't mean the game is unbalanced; it means that you're a bad player, and you need to get better.” -JTC


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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We want to encourage bad players to stop doing the things that make them bad players.

 

"...you get killed over and over again, that doesn't mean the game is unbalanced; it means that you're a bad player, and you need to get better.” -JTC

Understandable and I totally agree with you. However don't you feel like they would just get into a routine and keep dying without thinking? The POW breaks this cycle and causes them to think. However I don't think POW would be a 100% feature on death. Just depends on the type of battle going on.


PvE is like water to my whiskey. Don't water down my whiskey.- Ronald Reagan

 

Don't be a custard gonzo.- Abraham Lincoln

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Don't you feel like they would just get into a routine and keep dying without thinking?

 

If someone has to run an hour to get back home from his sixth death and then realizes that his vault is empty and he has no gear left, he's probably going to start contemplating the life choices that have brought him to that condition.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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If someone has to run an hour to get back home from his sixth death and then realizes that his vault is empty and he has no gear left, he's probably going to start contemplating the life choices that have brought him to that condition.

Or they would just log off/rage quit because most bad players assume they are awesome so how can this be happening to them? The POW camp breaks the cycle and causes an actual thinking process. POW skips the 5 deaths and goes right to the 6th. They lost their gear( can only get it back with a successful revolt) They are across the map, have to wait 15 minutes and get a debuff leaving the camp.  This happening to them makes them think and realize " Damn, I custarded up" Rather than the mindless cycle of dying, running back to get gear, go back to the fight, rinse and repeat.

 

Once again I would like to remind you this doesn't replace death, just adds a strategic element to larger scale battles. Its just a camp across the map you are teleported to if someone fulfills the requirements in that small window and you are detained for a short amount of time.


PvE is like water to my whiskey. Don't water down my whiskey.- Ronald Reagan

 

Don't be a custard gonzo.- Abraham Lincoln

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Or they would just log off/rage quit because most bad players assume they are awesome so how can this be happening to them?

 

This player isn't likely to play Crowfall for long anyway. If your goal with this mechanic is to make the game more appealing to a wider, softer audience, your efforts are misguided and counter to the stated developer intentions for the game.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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This player isn't likely to play Crowfall for long anyway. If your goal with this mechanic is to make the game more appealing to a wider, softer audience, your efforts are misguided and counter to the stated developer intentions for the game.

Why do you assume I want a wider, softer audience? I would prefer a larger player base yes but not softer. I am saying that the POW is more effective in showing bad players they suck then the mindless respawn. So bad players would realize they are bad and need to improve. If you don't break the cycle then it just repeats itself.


PvE is like water to my whiskey. Don't water down my whiskey.- Ronald Reagan

 

Don't be a custard gonzo.- Abraham Lincoln

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I love when meta is stated like a good thing. I understand the problem and it's hard to find a mechanism that is both competitive and fun.

 

Many other discussions were formed around downed mechanics, having foes down but not out, and actually creating greater burden on a foe to retrieve their dying allies in order to preserve loot and recover an ally.

 

Beside the mounting cost of equipment degradation and looting, attempting to prevent looting and recovering lame allies could further increase the obstacles of defeat.

 

Other features will have to be present, like respawn, probably at a distant location, but further limitations could exist in sieges, and point control, like preventing a player from returning to a siege an innumerable amount of times, say maybe a 3 life cap, or whatever number.

 

Also, retrieving replacement equipment could be another time sink, either delaying their return, rendering them unarmed if they rush back, and creating a vulnerable caravan if foes bring stashed of alternate equipment to the battlefield.

 

There are a lot of creative ways to create obstacles and more in order to develop a compelling competition and an acceptable limitation at the same time. Get more creative.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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I love when meta is stated like a good thing. I understand the problem and it's hard to find a mechanism that is both competitive and fun.

 

Many other discussions were formed around downed mechanics, having foes down but not out, and actually creating greater burden on a foe to retrieve their dying allies in order to preserve loot and recover an ally.

 

Beside the mounting cost of equipment degradation and looting, attempting to prevent looting and recovering lame allies could further increase the obstacles of defeat.

 

Other features will have to be present, like respawn, probably at a distant location, but further limitations could exist in sieges, and point control, like preventing a player from returning to a siege an innumerable amount of times, say maybe a 3 life cap, or whatever number.

 

Also, retrieving replacement equipment could be another time sink, either delaying their return, rendering them unarmed if they rush back, and creating a vulnerable caravan if foes bring stashed of alternate equipment to the battlefield.

 

There are a lot of creative ways to create obstacles and more in order to develop a compelling competition and an acceptable limitation at the same time. Get more creative.

this isn't a downed option though. Those don't actually add to the game other than be a nuisance. This is an option within a small time frame to remove the player away from the battlefield rather than die. I feel like this adds a more strategic element to the game. Please read OP.

Are you assuming Sieges will be instanced? How would you enforce a life cap?

Edited by Vitalized

PvE is like water to my whiskey. Don't water down my whiskey.- Ronald Reagan

 

Don't be a custard gonzo.- Abraham Lincoln

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As cool as a well thought out PoW mechanic would be it definitely falls to far to the right in the Fun Vs. Realism spectrum, at least in my opinion for this game.

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The "problem" you are trying to fix is pretty much already solved by having stricter penalties upon death. You have item lose due to decay and looting. So when they do come back they might be weaker due to losing gear. We also haven't heard much about the rez mechanic so no idea how long it would take a player to get back to the battle.

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this isn't a downed option though. Those don't actually add to the game other than be a nuisance. This is an option within a small time frame to remove the player away from the battlefield rather than die. I feel like this adds a more strategic element to the game. Please read OP.

Are you assuming Sieges will be instanced? How would you enforce a life cap?

You fail to realize the window of opportunity that is utilized for sieges, you can't attack at any time, if you reach a cap you simply can't approach the battlefield any longer, your siege access gets denied the same way it would if you weren't scheduled.

 

Anyway, if your only interest is in your stated solution, I'll simply admit that I don't think players will tolerate the mechanism.Crowfall is expected to be a hardcore game, but there's a limit to how much boredom you can include in a games design.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Well yes they will come back potentially weaker by losing gear if they did not go and grab their back ups in a chest. How would you go about to make it smarter gameplay rather than just mind numbing zergs? The One post about Battefield Buff nodes is a good suggestion. This feature not to supplant death however but cause a cycle break in a players mindset, add a different experience, add strategic options to sieges.

 

 

You fail to realize the window of opportunity that is utilized for sieges, you can't attack at any time, if you reach a cap you simply can't approach the battlefield any longer, your siege access gets denied the same way it would if you weren't scheduled.

Anyway, if your only interest is in your stated solution, I'll simply admit that I don't think players will tolerate the mechanism.Crowfall is expected to be a hardcore game, but there's a limit to how much boredom you can include in a games design.

So just create an invisible wall around the Siege that is occurring? I would rather have less instanced events occurring and you seem to want an instanced Siege to take place.

I am open to ideas however I haven't seen a decent counter argument in this post other than Jihan's.

15 minutes isn't a life time, it adds to immersion, creates a new experience, breaks a bad players cycle to make them think, adds strategic gameplay, doesn't take much to implement this, adds to the hardcore aspect, isn't necessarily boring as there are options within the prison, when you have a constant stream of action then the action no longer becomes exhilarating so this actually makes the action more fun.

 

If you don't like the idea of being locked up in a prison then that's okay. I don't like the idea either, however 15 minutes isn't long. I find the pros far out way the cons though.


PvE is like water to my whiskey. Don't water down my whiskey.- Ronald Reagan

 

Don't be a custard gonzo.- Abraham Lincoln

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Well yes they will come back potentially weaker by losing gear if they did not go and grab their back ups in a chest. How would you go about to make it smarter gameplay rather than just mind numbing zergs? The One post about Battefield Buff nodes is a good suggestion. This feature not to supplant death however but cause a cycle break in a players mindset, add a different experience, add strategic options to sieges.

 

 

If they have to travel somewhere from the graveyard to where ever their gear is stored, or if they have to have new gear made that's all time away from the battlefield.

 

Also as discussed many times in other threads the Zerg is also being combated by physic's and friendly fire to name a few.

 

So yeah bottom line is likely you "problem" has already been solved. Just have to wait and see when we get to finally see some gameplay in action.

 

and yes 15 minutes out of the game is an eternity when considering players with limited playtime and patience for such mechanics that don't let them actually play the game.

Edited by pang

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If they have to travel somewhere from the graveyard to where ever their gear is stored, or if they have to have new gear made that's all time away from the battlefield.

 

Also as discussed many times in other threads the Zerg is also being combated by physic's and friendly fire to name a few.

 

So yeah bottom line is likely you "problem" has already been solved. Just have to wait and see when we get to finally see some gameplay in action.

 

and yes 15 minutes out of the game is an eternity when considering players with limited playtime and patience for such mechanics that don't let them actually play the game.

Yes time away, but is part of the cycle.  I did not know friendly fire is going to be implemented in an MMO.. is that wise? I guess 15 minutes can seem like an eternity for a 14 year old. If you have only an hour to play then I suggest you shouldn't even be involved in sieges, but rather enjoy maybe a MOBA match.


PvE is like water to my whiskey. Don't water down my whiskey.- Ronald Reagan

 

Don't be a custard gonzo.- Abraham Lincoln

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Yes time away, but is part of the cycle.  I did not know friendly fire is going to be implemented in an MMO.. is that wise? I guess 15 minutes can seem like an eternity for a 14 year old. If you have only an hour to play then I suggest you shouldn't even be involved in sieges, but rather enjoy maybe a MOBA match.

Yes friendly fire is the only way to go, have you ever played eso? It's just 2 giant mobs of people smashing against each other and if your shooting your teammates in the back all the time they probably won't be your teammates for long lol

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Yes friendly fire is the only way to go, have you ever played eso? It's just 2 giant mobs of people smashing against each other and if your shooting your teammates in the back all the time they probably won't be your teammates for long lol

Only played eso for maybe a week there was so many things wrong with that game. However why is friendly fire a better option than a POW camp?

 

I have to keep restating this because I don't want people to get the wrong idea. This feature doesn't supplant death and would only be used if the cards are right. Like... pushing into an enemy territory, you want to reduce the amount of reinforcement waves so you capture instead of kill.

Edited by Vitalized

PvE is like water to my whiskey. Don't water down my whiskey.- Ronald Reagan

 

Don't be a custard gonzo.- Abraham Lincoln

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