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Why do people think they can fix "toxicity"?

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Different people are offended by different things.

 

 

Stuff that is hilarious and entertaining to me, might get someone else's panties in a bunch.

No matter what, someone will ALWAYS be offended and then call the other guy "toxic".

 

It is a Sisyphean task to even attempt and "fix toxicity".

 

Instead of crying wolf all the time, people need to start relfecting on what has been said and maybe accept the criticism that came their way, even if it was a little bit on the harsher side. If someone tells you you're bad, then that person is not being toxic but most likely stating facts.

 

 

We're not here to cuddle and sing songs. Other players will make you mad, will hurt your feelings, will frustrate you. But just because that is the case, doesn't mean, that that person is "toxic". It most likely just means you need to get a thicker skin or learn how to accept reality.

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I don't expect it, but honor is a human quality so it CAN exist in all human activities including video games.

 

Honor is simply a human construct and just another way to dictate behavior.


You are so incredibly helpful, CYT. I don't know how I ever managed to do anything before we met. I was just bumbling my way through life, all lost-like. Thank you. My blessing cup runneth over.

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It's a completely absurd assertion to say that toxicity is some natural element of competitive play.  It just is.  It has literally nothing to do with what does and doesn't offend people.  We aren't talking about criticism, toxicity comes from people who degrade others not to get them to improve or learn, but just because it makes them feel cool and flex their ego.

 

There are a million ways to generate competitiveness, create rivalries, and breed conflict without expecting that to be filled with garbage attitudes and socktalk.  You can be arrogant without being disrespectful.  You can challenge others, and even gloat without being disrespectful.

 

Labeling anything that isn't hugs and giggles as "toxicity" is a false dichotomy being made by a number of players in order to essentially say we shouldn't police people being unpleasant people.  But that's not how it works.  You can compete, you can fight, you can wage war, and not be an asshat.

 

If you don't understand that, then you ignore reality.  Humans can and have been respectful.  There's no reason we can't be.

 

 

To those who just want to be able to grind others into the dust, without being disrespectful, but feel that "overmoderation" is a problem: you're making the wrong arguments.  The problem isn't the attempt to fix toxicity, the problem is how we label it.  But every time you promote the idea that we should just give up and let it be no holds barred, you give all the sockheads free reign and a bigger voice.  We don't need that.

 

Don't be a child.  Act like an adult.  I know for a fact that the average age of this community is generally higher than I've come to expect from most PvP games, so start acting like it.  Be the bigger man, and crush people into the dust with your wit and intellect, rather than with your ability to colorfully describe the way you'd like to sexually violate them.  If we all start acting that way, and stop treating every act of moderation or rules as an affront to competition, then the actually toxic members of the community will be the only people who suffer.

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Be the bigger man, and crush people into the dust with your wit and intellect, rather than with your ability to colorfully describe the way you'd like to sexually violate them. 

 

What if my wit and intellect runs on fuel made from the tears harvested from explaining to 12 year olds exactly what I did or did not do to their mother? Hint: The only thing I didn't do is tip.

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then who defines what's toxic if "It has literally nothing to do with what does and doesn't offend people"?

 

whose imaginary standard do we have to follow?

 

Of course there are clear cases, but that's rarely the case.

Edited by freeze

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xSighx   An action. a statement, a group can only be considered "toxic" if the other party involved takes offense.  Without offense, there is no toxicity.  If someone tells an "off color" joke that "offends" you.............do you berate him or do you remove yourself from the presence of said person?  I find it sad that people in general think their own morals and beliefs should dictate the morals and beliefs of the entire populous,    That in itself is "control".  YOU by yourself are going to make a certain situation , venue or person adhere to your own preferences.  It goes both ways.  I don't think anyone is advocating abusive behavior at all, we all agree that truly abusive speech ( in and out of game, any game ) is wrong, no rl threats, sexual and religious slurs off the table. But forcing players to not take pride in their skills and kills and instead somehow "feel bad" about it would make me ask why anyone would even want to play such a game?   Where is the "fun"  if I have to worry that I might have "offended" someone that I was ecstatic that I finally pk'd the hell out of their pixels and I was pretty damn happy about it?  And verbalized it in no uncertain terms?  

 

Maybe as Todd said " you're just a bad player"   and you just need to get good. :)   And get some thicker skin while you are at it.  

Edited by ellie

Maybe it not about the happy ending. Maybe it's about the story.

RIP Doc Gonzo "to anyone...speak your mind...defend your position...be prepared for an Argument and enjoy the process of the discussion...that's all part of any good Forum experience"

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Don't be a child.  Act like an adult.  I know for a fact that the average age of this community is generally higher than I've come to expect from most PvP games, so start acting like it.  Be the bigger man, and crush people into the dust with your wit and intellect, rather than with your ability to colorfully describe the way you'd like to sexually violate them.  If we all start acting that way, and stop treating every act of moderation or rules as an affront to competition, then the actually toxic members of the community will be the only people who suffer.

 

Is it so hard to ignore people? x2

 

Take a sample of 100 CF players, try your best to teach them not to be "toxic". One player keeps being an asshat.. you say ban him, I say ignore him. Who's being immature? And this is assuming that "toxicity" is pure evil, which I am not so sure of.

 

You don't go around places yelling children (or "toxic" adults) to stop doing whatever childish thing they're doing, you ignore them.

Unless they threaten you and start becoming dangerous..

Edited by Fenris DDevil

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Is it so hard to ignore people? x2

 

Take a sample of 100 CF players, try your best to teach them not to be "toxic". One player keeps being an asshat.. you say ban him, I say ignore him. Who's being immature? And this is assuming that "toxicity" is pure evil, which I am not so sure of.

 

You don't go around places yelling children (or "toxic" adults) to stop doing whatever childish thing they're doing, you ignore them.

Unless they threaten you and start becoming dangerous..

Besides.. Growing up is overrated. Growing older can not be avoided. But I refuse to grow up all the way. Excuse me while I continue to laugh at things like people farting or funny voices, etc. Excuse me while I try to enjoy life.  

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What if after someone receives a fair amount of warnings, they are removed silently?  What I mean is, they can still post (or chat in game) but nobody sees it but them.  They're allowed to continue being toxic, and nobody has to suffer from it.  It's kind of a 3 strikes and you're out policy.  Since they don't know they're being filtered, they just think people are ignoring them and one of three things happen:

  1. They stop talking completely (problem solved).
  2. They start changing the way they communicate (problem solved). 
  3. They continue being toxic and remain in their bubble where they belong.

You could also add a probationary period.  First time they earn the bubble status, it lasts for a month.  Second time, two months, etc.

 

It's not a perfect system... but it might work.

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What if after someone receives a fair amount of warnings, they are removed silently?  What I mean is, they can still post (or chat in game) but nobody sees it but them.  They're allowed to continue being toxic, and nobody has to suffer from it.  It's kind of a 3 strikes and you're out policy.  Since they don't know they're being filtered, they just think people are ignoring them and one of three things happen:

  1. They stop talking completely (problem solved).
  2. They start changing the way they communicate (problem solved). 
  3. They continue being toxic and remain in their bubble where they belong.

You could also add a probationary period.  First time they earn the bubble status, it lasts for a month.  Second time, two months, etc.

 

It's not a perfect system... but it might work.

A forum ban should never result in a game ban.

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There is no human nature, theres genes and environment. Environment affects the genes. Genes become active or inactive based on environmental stimulus. Before you go and say I'm a crazy person and have no idea what I'm talking about, I am quoting Dr. Robert Sapolsky verbatim. He is a neuroendocrinologist, professor of biology, neuroscience, and neurosurgery at Stanford University. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Sapolsky

So if you want to call me crazy, you're calling him crazy. I just had to correct you on human nature.

 

Then what is mind since we can't locate it, measure it, or define its substance?  If you say that mind is nothing but matter then that's illogical because matter is mindless and we would all make the same predictable decisions every time like a machine.  Remember that even scientists can be biased, refuse to admit mistakes, or publish bad data for various reasons like bribery, recognition, or fear of criticism.

 

And its possible to change toxic behavior.  You can act mature and humble towards them regardless of what they say, so they can imitate you when they see the strength and peace of mind in your attitude.  They also might reflect on themselves and choose to change when they didn't consider it previously.  Or they might just be young or immature and need more time to grow out of it.

Edited by saludeen

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I feel like you are generalising and lumping most people that like pvp into one group.

I would like to be excluded from that please.

Well, of course it's general. I can only think of two people on these boards who have either admitted that they do it, or who clearly do (you aren't one I think, heh. Not that you should care about what I think!). The reason it's 'general' is because the playerbase at large is where this behavior comes from. Believe me, if someone knew how to pinpoint the people who have ruined pvp for so many, we'd know it. It's frustrating too, because the true sociopaths are probably an incredibly small number of people (and probably mostly under 18!). But the enormity of their actions shows up in hard proof right in front of our eyes.

 

I actually have high hopes for EK pvp. How cool would it be to know that when you join the fight, everyone on the battlefield has pledged to be decent to everyone else. Fight like mad, bow at the end. This is possible if guilds hold their membership accountable, and the EK is invite-only. But of course, this kind of pvp would just be a distraction. The real action will be in the Dying Wolds. It would be nice if they could be invite-only, but that's obviously not likely, heh.


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Is it so hard to ignore people? x2

No, actually. It's really easy to ignore these people. You just stop playing pvp games. Oh, wait, there are no more good pvp MMO's out? What went wrong? Oh, yeah, they started 'ignoring' the abusive players......... This is the **reality** we face. You can't dodge it, outwit it, or wave it off. Do we want CF to avoid the fate of every single other 'hardcore' pvp game out there (don't even say Eve)?


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Reputation. Just like back WoW vanilla or TBC where realms were locked from any crossrealm transion, Players what was bad or ninja loosters could insta uninstall game ot just start on realm. Such players had their reputation completly destroyed.

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I actually have high hopes for EK pvp. How cool would it be to know that when you join the fight, everyone on the battlefield has pledged to be decent to everyone else.

 

I don't play Settlers of Catan. Oh, I think the game is fantastic, and I'd love to play it, but I can't.

 

I can't play Settlers of Catan, because every time I play, at least one absolute GD buffoon is playing who wants to play "nice". They want to put the robber on an unoccupied tile, and get their vaginas all sore when someone else puts the robber on a tile they occupy. They want to build roads that won't interfere with another person's attempt at Longest Road, and get their vaginas all sore when someone else ruins theirs.

 

Every single time I've forced myself to play Settlers of Catan with such people, and forced myself to play "nice", you know who ends up not playing "nice", because they've decided they want to win? The buffoon who wanted to play "nice". Suddenly, when they have a chance to win, because they've lulled everyone else into foregoing sound strategy, it's okay to put the robber on another person, or interrupt a Longest Road, because they're "just playing the game". They don't want anyone else to play the game to win, so they whip out some faux moralistic garbage and guilt trip everyone else into sucking on purpose, just so they can be on par (because they suck). When the opportunity presents itself, though, they always whip out the daggers and stab everyone else in the back.

 

You don't want to play Crowfall. You want to play Settlers of Catan, and play "nice". But I am absolutely confident that you will not hesitate to be a "sociopath" when it gives you the opportunity to win. Your kind are all the same.


I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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I don't think anyone is advocating abusive behavior at all, we all agree that truly abusive speech ( in and out of game, any game ) is wrong, no rl threats, sexual and religious slurs off the table. But forcing players to not take pride in their skills and kills and instead somehow "feel bad" about it would make me ask why anyone would even want to play such a game?   Where is the "fun"  if I have to worry that I might have "offended" someone that I was ecstatic that I finally pk'd the hell out of their pixels and I was pretty damn happy about it?  And verbalized it in no uncertain terms?  

I for one never suggested that you or anyone else were "advocating" bad behavior. And of course there is the meaning of the word "truly". It means different things to different people. And this is where the train always goes off the rails. Someone says that the abusive actions of some in PVP is the reason few are willing to play. The response is 'why can't I be proud of what I was able to accomplish?!'. You're talking past one another.

 

Really, what most of us should be doing is pledging to target and blacklist somehow those e-thugs who WILL ruin pvp's name in Crowfall. Those who love pvp should accept and OWN the fact that pvp has a bad name because of the actions of a minority of players in their group. Then they should band together to try and clean up pvp's name. If you are the type who behaves decently toward those you fight, call out and cut off those who do not. Support those who do end up getting targeted with nastiness. Don't just gloss over this very real problem.


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You don't want to play Crowfall. You want to play Settlers of Catan, and play "nice". But I am absolutely confident that you will not hesitate to be a "sociopath" when it gives you the opportunity to win. Your kind are all the same.

Never played that game. I'm glad you are confident in your opinion, but I gotta say, you'll be disappointed. I hate losing in pvp, but I still play. I love winning in pvp, but I am *never* a poor winner. The only people I even tease about beating them are people I actually know (irl, or guild members, etc). Strangers I might offer a /wave or a /giggle at. So, I guess 'my kind' is pretty much just normal.....


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Well, of course it's general. I can only think of two people on these boards who have either admitted that they do it, or who clearly do (you aren't one I think, heh. Not that you should care about what I think!). The reason it's 'general' is because the playerbase at large is where this behavior comes from. Believe me, if someone knew how to pinpoint the people who have ruined pvp for so many, we'd know it. It's frustrating too, because the true sociopaths are probably an incredibly small number of people (and probably mostly under 18!). But the enormity of their actions shows up in hard proof right in front of our eyes.

 

I actually have high hopes for EK pvp. How cool would it be to know that when you join the fight, everyone on the battlefield has pledged to be decent to everyone else. Fight like mad, bow at the end. This is possible if guilds hold their membership accountable, and the EK is invite-only. But of course, this kind of pvp would just be a distraction. The real action will be in the Dying Wolds. It would be nice if they could be invite-only, but that's obviously not likely, heh.

This is why the king of the north died.


 

This game looks like a larger scale version of marvel heroes so far with forts.  - nephiral marts 7 2015

 

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Toxicity is all in the eye of the beholder ...

 

For example, I am offended by "yes" people. The people that defend game developers every single time, every thread and every post.

"Yes" people are the reason that a lot of games don't get fixed, because they adamantly defend game developers constantly.

 

"Yes" people are usually the biggest brown nosers, that try to find a direct contact with game developers so that they can passively/aggressively change the game to what they think it should be, whilst looking like the biggest fan/advocate for the game.

 

"Yes" people deliberately use these passive/aggressive attacks in the forum under the guise of being a white knight while deliberately baiting people in an effort to demean their pov because the other person is expressing some negative feedback.

 

I call these "white knights" every single bit as toxic, if not moreso, than someone who might kill you in-game a few times and call you a name or two.

Name calling is not going to break a game. Learn to laugh at it, pick yourself up, learn by it and move on.

 

We are all going to experience a learning curve when we first step into the CF game. Some will learn faster than others and some like myself, will take some time getting used to it. I will simply laugh at anyone calling me a name while I'm still learning but the most important thing is ... I will learn by the experience and try to improve.

What needs to be remembered is that everyone, every single person that plays CF will be killed multiple times in the game, even bullies will be killed and most likely the bullies will become prime targets. So lighten up, shrug it off and move on or /ignore.


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