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Why do people think they can fix "toxicity"?

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It's about the tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of gamers out there who won't play a pvp mmo game because of the reputation pvp has.  It's not about the pvp itself! This is the disconnect many here seem to have. It's about the disrespectful and abusive behavior toward the players that sit on top of the pvp.

1st off thank you for recognizing in your post that we will sit on the top of the pvp. Secondly, Hunters often use the sounds of dying animals (sheep) to bring in the wolf's. IMO this is what CF did by using the" Play to Crush" tagline early on. ANYONE that has ever played/heard of Shadowbane KNOWS that that is our rally banner. That being said you don't stock an area with wolf's and not give them something to eat. The problem is we thought we were in a pen with other wolfs but turns out there are several sheep to eat and even a few my little pony's. To your point about toxicity and competent pvp pushing millions of users away from this game. NO ONE CARES! I know in the past this has been a well proven tactic with you "PvP is the devil" types. You lean on developers inherent NEED to make the game appeal to a wider audience and thus make more money. GUESS WHAT? That's not going to happen here cupcake!  IMO take your whinass back to whatever game you thought you were good at 5 years ago.


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It all boils down to "entitlement".   Where anyone gets the idea they are so damn important is beyond me.   But there are lots of them.   

 

Yeah, let's say the growing popularity of streaming did encourage people with a huge ego.

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I lol at the "streamers" when they start to "beg" for access early so they can "promote" the game. Not that that really does happen is some cases but for the most part it's kids wanting to get a backstage pass and is soo transparent as shameless begging.


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1st off thank you for recognizing in your post that we will sit on the top of the pvp. Secondly, Hunters often use the sounds of dying animals (sheep) to bring in the wolf's. IMO this is what CF did by using the" Play to Crush" tagline early on. ANYONE that has ever played/heard of Shadowbane KNOWS that that is our rally banner. That being said you don't stock an area with wolf's and not give them something to eat. The problem is we thought we were in a pen with other wolfs but turns out there are several sheep to eat and even a few my little pony's. To your point about toxicity and competent pvp pushing millions of users away from this game. NO ONE CARES! I know in the past this has been a well proven tactic with you "PvP is the devil" types. You lean on developers inherent NEED to make the game appeal to a wider audience and thus make more money. GUESS WHAT? That's not going to happen here cupcake!  IMO take your whinass back to whatever game you thought you were good at 5 years ago.

PLAY2CRUSH :)  We don't hear that enough these days.   And I am thinking we need to hear it moar.

 

Back during KS'er there were many questions, from ppl like me, that were worried about the "vision"  ( and even recently posters questioning what the "vision" even is ).  There was one reply from Tully that I will hold ACE to:

 

 

 

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game. I'm starting to think people just don't listen to me   :(

 

 

Next time one of these threads pop up (probably sometime tomorrow) can y'all do me a favor and let them know their concerns are ill-found? "

 

Now all those "anti Pvper's"  I am sure did not believe him.   Because if they did, we would still be doing ANY of this?  Time and time and time again?   I get what some want.  They say they want "civil" PvP.  They want consideration.  They want manners.  They want "no toxicity".  What they are really saying is they want a "softer" game and hiding behind the "no toxicity" banner.   Seems like alot of folks just do not want Crowfall to be what it was intended to be.

Edited by ellie

Maybe it not about the happy ending. Maybe it's about the story.

RIP Doc Gonzo "to anyone...speak your mind...defend your position...be prepared for an Argument and enjoy the process of the discussion...that's all part of any good Forum experience"

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- Play2Nice

 

+ Play2Crush


I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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You lean on developers inherent NEED to make the game appeal to a wider audience and thus make more money. GUESS WHAT? That's not going to happen here cupcake!  IMO take your whinass back to whatever game you thought you were good at 5 years ago.

I guess we'll see. You 'hardcore' pvp types have been disappointed here before. No offense, but I hope you get disappointed again.

*to clarify, this means I want CF to be profitable for more than a couple years.

**As long as people continue to think that PLAY2CRUSH means being able to /spit on corpses, corpse-camp, verbally abuse other players (not normal trash-talk, but the nasty stuff), and other "hardcore" things, PvP games are destined to have shorter life spans. 

Edited by toxophile

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I guess we'll see. You 'hardcore' pvp types have been disappointed here before. No offense, but I hope you get disappointed again.

*to clarify, this means I want CF to be profitable for more than a couple years.

**As long as people continue to think that PLAY2CRUSH means being able to /spit on corpses, corpse-camp, verbally abuse other players (not normal trash-talk, but the nasty stuff), and other "hardcore" things, PvP games are destined to have shorter life spans. 

 

Disappointed again?.. Not by these guys (Gordon / Todd) they helped make UO and Shadowbane.. which both stayed close to their hardcore PvP roots. UO is still running strong and Shadowbane died because it was sold to Ubi which probably bought because they liked a few of the concepts and then sold it to China. As long and Todd doesn't decide to abandon and leave us all at the mercy of investors and some big company we should be good for a while. But then again.. he's no longer a part of Wizard101 either.. I wonder if this is his plan all along... build a hype train with Crowfall.. blow through Kickstarter.. look for "real investors", start development, build community, Launch game, milk initial profits, sell game off to large company, profit. 

 

Actually the team is already talking to people and holding conferences about "how we'll approach community building for out next game project" and this was all before June. 

 

dQIOf8q.png?1

 

That's it guys! We're all doomed. The Devs have already left us behind in spirit for their next profit.. I mean game. T_T

Edited by thenebrosity

OQa1xvz.png?1

lol ok.. I wonder if I'll still be able to steal directly from people's inventories.. hrmmm

;)Twitch - Twitter

RIP DOC GONZO

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Seems I am really missing the point of this thread. 

Just been reading the whole thing for a second time, still don't get it, must be me.

 

 

What is this about?

The right to act like the biggest internet tough-guy?

The right to have your internet feelings protected from internet tough-guys?

Is common courtesy or sportsmanship such a controversial subject nowadays?

On the other hand, have we become so sensitive, that we cannot deal with some verbal jabs?  

 

Or is it about the difference between banter and abuse?

 

Isn't it really as simple as drawing the line at abuse/threats/racism?

You know, the sensible things usually found in many a ToS?  

 

 

 

If you do not like how people are treating you: Don't play with them.

> Nobody is holding a gun to your head, forcing you to play with people you don't like: Go find some others who share your values.

 

Conversely: If you act a certain way, do not be surprised if some people won't play with you.

> To bad if you would have really liked to play with that really skilled Knight: Since you're an arsehole, he won't play with you, suck it up. 

 

Now, wait for the game to release, then go kill eachother by throwing particle effects on a digital internet battlefield. 

 

 

 

 

There, issue solved: Now love me. 

Or bring the torches and pitchforks.

 

I don't know, just my 2c!  


~Strategy is the art of making use of time and space.
I'm less concerned about the latter than the former: Space we can recover, lost time never.

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I wonder if this is his plan all along... build a hype train with Crowfall.. blow through Kickstarter.. look for "real investors", start development, build community, Launch game, milk initial profits, sell game off to large company, profit.

 

Best way imho for a KS game is to do like Mark Jacobs (Camelot Unchained): make the game "open source" when they will no longer be "in charge" (the company that created it).

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Seems I am really missing the point of this thread. 

Just been reading the whole thing for a second time, still don't get it, must be me.

What is this about?

The right to act like the biggest internet tough-guy?

The right to have your internet feelings protected from internet tough-guys?

Is common courtesy or sportsmanship such a controversial subject nowadays?

On the other hand, have we become so sensitive, that we cannot deal with some verbal jabs?  

Or is it about the difference between banter and abuse?

Isn't it really as simple as drawing the line at abuse/threats/racism?

You know, the sensible things usually found in many a ToS?  

If you do not like how people are treating you: Don't play with them.

> Nobody is holding a gun to your head, forcing you to play with people you don't like: Go find some others who share your values.

Conversely: If you act a certain way, do not be surprised if some people won't play with you.

> To bad if you would have really liked to play with that really skilled Knight: Since you're an arsehole, he won't play with you, suck it up. 

Now, wait for the game to release, then go kill eachother by throwing particle effects on a digital internet battlefield. 

There, issue solved: Now love me. 

Or bring the torches and pitchforks.

I don't know, just my 2c!  

 

Problem is that some people still have a playground mentality where "X person doesn't want to play nice with me!!" followed by them crying to the moderators about how toxic the community is. They feel like everyone has to play nice with them and if they don't "those people are toxic and don't belong here." There's definitely something seriously demented about people that think like that. Those people need to get out into the real world and learn that life isn't all rainbows and flowers and its the same on here. It's just that people are alot more frank on the internet and for some people.. it's all just too much. 

 

If you really want to.. just narrow it down to a sense of entitlement. Some people feel like they're entitled to be held in high regard and respected by everyone and when they're not.. they spam the report button. Those people need to grow up and get with the program or leave. No one here is gonna kiss your bottom, if you're expecting people automatically like and get along with you you're gravely mistaken and we will all enjoy camping your corpse in-game while feasting on your tears.

Edited by thenebrosity

OQa1xvz.png?1

lol ok.. I wonder if I'll still be able to steal directly from people's inventories.. hrmmm

;)Twitch - Twitter

RIP DOC GONZO

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This isn't about me. I had my baptism by fire and came out understanding that I literally could not care less what anonymous people on the internet think of me. I figure most people here feel very similar. It's not even about us. It's about the tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of gamers out there who won't play a pvp mmo game because of the reputation pvp has. It's about the vitriol in the moba games. Even fps like BF4 crank out the bad vibes.

 

Those people you speak of probably have little to no experience with PVP, have only played in flawed systems, and or simply like something else.

 

You'll likely never convince someone that it is fun to get killed randomly and lose everything after they've spent time in games like WoW or whatever similar experience.

 

Those that want PVP or simply want a player conflict focused experience, seek it out and play it.

 

The sequence is short and ugly: Players join a pvp game, get killed, demeaned, insulted, harassed, and trolled, then quit (and tell all their friends not to play). The game population drops, the e-thugs start complaining there are no more sheep to kill, the game shuts down, e-thugs start complaining that there aren't any 'good' pvp games to play.

 

Again, what games are you speaking of?

 

I don't believe I've ever seen anyone put the blame on "no good pvp games" on the community.

 

*edit*

And it's not even about what the game is. Yes, people who join a game promoted as pvp-centric with liberal loot rules and the like should expect to be killed. What they *shouldn't* expect is to be treated so badly by the small number of e-thugs out there. It's not about the pvp itself! This is the disconnect many here seem to have. It's about the disrespectful and abusive behavior toward the players that sit on top of the pvp. It's THIS 'toxicity' that only the pvp community can fix. This is the "hardcore" part that many here **seem** to be condoning by opposing any efforts to clean it up.

 

No one is going to fix anything, especially not the community. If so, the world would be a much different place. People simply do not function like that.

 

Not that I wouldn't want it to work much differently, but I don't live in la la land.

 

If players, be it individuals or groups are able to be abusive, that is entirely on those in control.

 

Much like real life, if there were no rules, I highly doubt we'd be holding hands and spinning in circles. Best outcome is to attempt to tame us as much as possible and deal with those that can't be.

 

Currently the issue I see is some are disagreeing with the rules in place and are for the most part able to do it. ACE has it entirely in their power to ban every last individual that is breaking the rules and causing so called problems for others. However, it seems like they realize that those individuals are wanted due to loyalty/passion for the project along with their wallets and it likely wouldn't be wise to make this game Rated G.

 

As they've said, updated policy is coming and hopefully with it, more objective moderation. If the new rules are "say whatever you like minus racist/sexual whatever" doubtful many will be complaining about being warned/banned/silenced. Those that couldn't handle such freedom due to sensitivity, are free to leave.

 

Basically ACE has to decide if they are catering to everyone or a specific crowd. If it is everyone, they'll have to tighten up a bit and give everyone outlets to express themselves. If it is a specific crowd, it needs to be spelled out so that no one is hear under false assumptions and feeling like they aren't being treated fairly one way or another.

Edited by allein

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I guess we'll see. You 'hardcore' pvp types have been disappointed here before. No offense, but I hope you get disappointed again.

*to clarify, this means I want CF to be profitable for more than a couple years.

**As long as people continue to think that PLAY2CRUSH means being able to /spit on corpses, corpse-camp, verbally abuse other players (not normal trash-talk, but the nasty stuff), and other "hardcore" things, PvP games are destined to have shorter life spans. 

 

Broken record, but what games suffered from such things?

 

/spit is dev created.

corpse camping is either by design or game flaw, both on devs.

verbal abuse being possible due to lack of filters or lack of moderation is again on the company.

 

You or someone you know might have had a poor experience, but overall, I don't believe PVP in of itself or those that enjoy it cause as much damage as you seem to believe.

 

There are toxic individuals in every single game where interaction is possible. Just like real life. There are nasty doctors and nurses and really nice prison guards and biker clubs. There were people pulling trains in EQ and I'd bet someone out there is a complete jerk in Hello Kitty Online.

 

I too want CF to be successful for quite a while, great thing is, those "hardcore" people you have issue with have entire campaigns and rulesets to play on. Assuming the forums will reflect this as well.

 

But I can guarantee there will be morons causing problems for "team mate" in the faction campaigns and guilds playing "by the rules" in the FFA campaigns. No different than it ever has been.

 

No need to be the savior or guiding light for those that don't want to be a part of this experience. I would rather it stay civil, but I don't make the rules nor enforce them. All I can do is be who I am, play how I want, and enjoy.

 

If ACE decides the forums and game will be X and someone finds it too oppressive or too chaotic, clearly the game isn't for them. No reason to fight the power, unless the power shows its hand an is "open" for discussion, this only leads to what we see now. Again, all on them.

Edited by allein

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It's clear people still didn't understand what I was trying to say, so I'll try once more.

 

Toxicity as a term did not arrive because people had thin skin.  It had nothing to do with people being too easily offended.  Go play LoL, the game that pretty much coined the term "toxic" and you'll realize that the topic of "can you fix toxicity" has nothing to do with some people being offended by stuff you think is polite.

 

What's happening here is ACE has suggested that toxic behavior is not allowed, and other people are stubbornly refusing to acknowledge what toxicity is, in order to defend it.  It's like someone is saying "Murder is illegal," and you guys are the ones going "But what about self-defense?"  Well self-defense isn't murder, and competitiveness isn't toxicity.

 

If you are so terrified that your behavior is going to be mislabeled as "toxic" then there is really one of two scenarios: you actually are disrespectful jerk and you can sack up and get the custard over your victim complex, or more likely, you're not actually being a truly toxic member and you're overreacting to baseless fears that somehow your competition will get driven out just because the people in the first category can't spend 10 minutes spewing hatespeak at anyone who pisses them off.

 

Problem is that some people still have a playground mentality where "X person doesn't want to play nice with me!!" followed by them crying to the moderators about how toxic the community is. They feel like everyone has to play nice with them and if they don't "those people are toxic and don't belong here." There's definitely something seriously demented about people that think like that. Those people need to get out into the real world and learn that life isn't all rainbows and flowers and its the same on here. It's just that people are alot more frank on the internet and for some people.. it's all just too much. 

 

If you really want to.. just narrow it down to a sense of entitlement. Some people feel like they're entitled to be held in high regard and respected by everyone and when they're not.. they spam the report button. Those people need to grow up and get with the program or leave. No one here is gonna kiss your bottom, if you're expecting people automatically like and get along with you you're gravely mistaken and we will all enjoy camping your corpse in-game while feasting on your tears.

 

And then there's just utter nonsense.  Maybe there's a third category where you just have no idea what you're talking about, because in my experience I can't recall a day in my life where IRL someone told me that I was a custard wonderful piece of sock and should go die (which is the kind of toxicity we're really talking about), so to correlate "Playing nice" with "Get out in the real world" is a notion with zero base in reality.  The real world is tough, and it's unfair sure, and so will the game.  But people don't go around being overt unpleasant people to eachother nonstop.

 

There are some people who have a sense of entitlement that overreact to any slight insult, sure, but I've seen far less of them on this forum than people who exhibit entitlement to be able to do literally whatever they want and have zero repercussions.  But you know what the big difference about the first people and the second are?  The people accused of "entitlement" because they can't take the heat will leave the game because it'll be harsh, so why do we care?  The people who are entitled and think they should have no rules applied to them?  That kind of thinking will actually ruin the game.

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Great post/ responses, I agree.

 

You touched on something that I have been asking for a long while now........... a rating.   When the forum was young, Tully stated PG13.   And since then we have had word filters added ( not a bad thing  really, have grown quite fond of it ) and a "tightening" of moderation in general, most recently with the arrival of the anonymods.  Is this a move towards E for everyone?  And, most recently stated  a forum with one set of Roc and a game with another set, but yet both are linked ( forum ban = game ban).  Not sure how that can even work, you have to be "milder" on the forum than in game?  Perhaps this is the solution to the "forum toxocity"  that some see.  I just don't see how it will help.  Sure, it might keep those "softer" types engaged to game launch, only then to find the game is much more "hardcore"  than they thought.  Kinda misleading if that is the way it goes if you ask me.

 

I guess, as you said, it boils down to ACE, their expectations and how they want to market their game and to who.  I think we all need full disclosure.  Once we know that, I am sure whoever the game is NOT for, does not appeal to, will more than likely remove themselves and alot of issues like this thread is indicitive of will no longer be an issue.  


Maybe it not about the happy ending. Maybe it's about the story.

RIP Doc Gonzo "to anyone...speak your mind...defend your position...be prepared for an Argument and enjoy the process of the discussion...that's all part of any good Forum experience"

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No one is going to fix anything, especially not the community. If so, the world would be a much different place. People simply do not function like that.

Not that I wouldn't want it to work much differently, but I don't live in la la land.

 

Let me say that I too know it won't change. The e-thugs will never go away, the dev's won't take it seriously, a lot of people will stay away from pvp-centric games, and pvp-centric games will stay a niche where games rotate out regularly with long gaps between them. The problem is to a large degree internet anonymity. But I am an eternal optimist. I hope one day that the people who love pvp the most will finally confront the issue of pvp's bad reputation and take it upon themselves (and not cop out by pointing to a ToS) to actually make it better.

 

As for games, pick any pvp-centric MMO that came after UO (and this does not include Eve, btw). There has been maybe 3? But you knew this already.....

 

As for AC's ability, but unwillingness to ban those who abuse other players, sure, you're right. But this is short-sighted IMHO. The few $$ they lose by banning the 'loyal/passionate' e-thugs *could* be made back to the n'th degree if the hordes that represent the full gaming population believed they could get involved in a really tough pvp game without the e-thug behaviors. And of course you know there is a world of differnece between a G-rated pvp game and one where players threaten to Gank their opponents. But then, again, you *know* the difference and are just hyperbolizing this. More smoke and mirrors.

 

So, let's not pawn this off on G&T, or blame it on the existence of /emotes (that were 100% guaranteed to have been put there for RP purposes). The mess PvP is in is because not enough of **us** have been willing to hold themselves and **others** to a more 'sportsmanlike' conduct.

 

Pretty much this:

 

What's happening here is ACE has suggested that toxic behavior is not allowed, and other people are stubbornly refusing to acknowledge what toxicity is, in order to defend it.  It's like someone is saying "Murder is illegal," and you guys are the ones going "But what about self-defense?"  Well self-defense isn't murder, and competitiveness isn't toxicity.

Edited by toxophile

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I guess, as you said, it boils down to ACE, their expectations and how they want to market their game and to who.  I think we all need full disclosure.  Once we know that, I am sure whoever the game is NOT for, does not appeal to, will more than likely remove themselves and alot of issues like this thread is indicitive of will no longer be an issue.  

It's sad, honestly, that dev's have to put this kind of time and effort into things like this. I think they're pretty savvy guys though, and will strike a pretty decent balance. As much as *we* want CF to be a success, they certainly wish it more. I've never been banned for anything, ever, anywhere. As I said, I learned very early on that none of you guys are real people (just really good bots!), so why should I let anything said to me bother me? I've also never (and never will) reported someone for something that was said to me. 'Hardcare' forum pvp doesn't phase me. And I bet the same is true for most of us here. But we're special. As noted many times, relatively speaking, we are a minority of gamers. But we want some of them to add their money to our's, right? So therefore we need to at least pretend to be nicer around them. Thus, ToS, ban's, etc...


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lol @ sportsmanlike conduct in PvP games. Learn to play, kill your enemies or go home.

Damn skippy! If everyone did just that, a lot more people would be interested in pvp, IMHO.


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