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Why do people think they can fix "toxicity"?

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It's sad, honestly, that dev's have to put this kind of time and effort into things like this. I think they're pretty savvy guys though, and will strike a pretty decent balance. As much as *we* want CF to be a success, they certainly wish it more. I've never been banned for anything, ever, anywhere. As I said, I learned very early on that none of you guys are real people (just really good bots!), so why should I let anything said to me bother me? I've also never (and never will) reported someone for something that was said to me. 'Hardcare' forum pvp doesn't phase me. And I bet the same is true for most of us here. But we're special. As noted many times, relatively speaking, we are a minority of gamers. But we want some of them to add their money to our's, right? So therefore we need to at least pretend to be nicer around them. Thus, ToS, ban's, etc...

I agree we want their money ( or perhaps ACE is the one that wants it lol ) but I will never agree that anyone should "pretend" to be anything other than what they are.  If I want to do that, I will just go to the  RP section lol.  You labeled me an e-thug a long time ago .................simply based on the fact that I was against the EK's, crafting and non combat archetypes w. dancing animations.  Yet, I have no violations, bans, etc anywhere, either.  I simply want to kill pixels lol.  I don't want to shake hands, have kumbaya moments or limit the type of person that I come into contact with as I play CF.  I don;t want have to think about who or what or why someone is thinking about when I kill them if this is a game that is supposed to be fun.  Your fun is simply not mine I guess.  To label mine "toxic"  is just as bad as if I had labelled yours ( which I never have )  Thank the All Father for the EK's, perhaps that is ACE's solution to any in game drama.  

Edited by ellie

Maybe it not about the happy ending. Maybe it's about the story.

RIP Doc Gonzo "to anyone...speak your mind...defend your position...be prepared for an Argument and enjoy the process of the discussion...that's all part of any good Forum experience"

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I have seen people tell others to Learn to Play, and then that player is labeled as Toxic.

 

Toxicity is subjective and will depend on the community to draw the line. What might fly here, might be considered toxic in Hello Kitty Online.

 

For example, I think toxophile's posts in this thread are absolutely horrible, and I would prefer if he stops posting on these forums entirely. Some might call that toxic, I just call it my opinion after observing his posts over the last many months. He might also feel the same about mine. I personally don't care, I honestly don't think he cares either. Someone might get a little sandy downstairs though and feel the need to report this post for being "abusive", "toxic", "degrading" or other things. Sounds like their opinion as well. That is really neat if you think about it, how we all have opinions... and that they differ! Perhaps this is why having a discussion like this is pointless. What should be done is to host a survey of sorts to get peoples true opinions on what would create a negative environment for them to the point where they wouldn't play... sample about 1000 random people. Draw the line at the majority consensus and move on.

 

For example:

 

"What would get you to stop playing Crowfall when it comes to other players?"

 

"What types of rules would you have with regards to player interaction?"

 

"What kind of options should a player have to take matters into their own hands?"

 

I would assume most here would not say that if I wanted to call thedoctor an idiot in game... or here on the forums... that they would be okay with me being able to do that if they also have options that are immediately actionable (ignore feature) or delayed (kos lists... scrubs though... everyone is kos until proven otherwise, amirite????). I only feel most would arrive there through a good open ended interview process though. It is too easy to get people to answer how you want with a poor interview process.

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Let me say that I too know it won't change. The e-thugs will never go away, the dev's won't take it seriously, a lot of people will stay away from pvp-centric games, and pvp-centric games will stay a niche where games rotate out regularly with long gaps between them. The problem is to a large degree internet anonymity. But I am an eternal optimist. I hope one day that the people who love pvp the most will finally confront the issue of pvp's bad reputation and take it upon themselves (and not cop out by pointing to a ToS) to actually make it better.

 

 

I wish you luck, but have -23.5 points of faith that "people who love pvp the most" will come together in harmony for the perfect experience or rather what you consider to be the ideal.

 

As for games, pick any pvp-centric MMO that came after UO (and this does not include Eve, btw). There has been maybe 3? But you knew this already.....

 

While I don't know why EVE wouldn't count as it is one of the longest and most successful running PVP games, but DAoC, WAR, Lineage(s), AO, AC, GW1/2, Aion, Darkfall(s), SWG, MO, AOC,  ESO come to mind. Then there are all the MOBAs, FPS, RTS, CCG, etc. Obviously Shadowbane. Heck you can even play most PVE focused games as PVP ones like WoW for example.

 

Maybe we have differing views as to what a PVP-Centric game is or maybe you are talking about only total FFA OW full loot, but even those 3 you suggest most likely didn't have poor outcomes because of the communities.

 

If I knew something or agreed, I wouldn't ask. The way you present your view seems to come from very obvious evidence. Honestly can say I don't know what games you are talking about and I've been doing this for two decades.

 

You talk as if there was pure nice guy sportsman ship that all games of the past would of done spectacular. I simply disagree and fault game design almost entirely and not those suffering through it.

 

As for AC's ability, but unwillingness to ban those who abuse other players, sure, you're right. But this is short-sighted IMHO. The few $$ they lose by banning the 'loyal/passionate' e-thugs *could* be made back to the n'th degree if the hordes that represent the full gaming population believed they could get involved in a really tough pvp game without the e-thug behaviors. And of course you know there is a world of differnece between a G-rated pvp game and one where players threaten to Gank their opponents. But then, again, you *know* the difference and are just hyperbolizing this. More smoke and mirrors.

 

Threatening to gank someone or kill them in a game entirely focused on killing each other is bad or poor sportsmanship? News to me.

 

Think you might have duels or safe PVP confused with open world PVP. If people want to shake hands, bow, come equally prepared and numbered, there are plenty of games that do that and they are very popular.

 

Crowfall does not appear to be that at all. This is a bring whatever you have and do whatever it takes to win design from what I can see.

 

From what I can tell, people love fighting one another, the catch is the masses prefer "safe" environments. Battlegrounds, instances, arenas, ranked matches, etc. Where they can die, respawn, and play so more. No real loss or risk involved. Basically MOBAs, FPS, RTS, CCG, and WoW type MMORPGs.

 

The hundreds of thousands of people out there that you think would flock to a game such as this if people simply were "nice" to one another seems way off base in my opinion.

 

Gamers in general do not seem to like risk vs reward. More about reward vs better rewards. If losing actually results in literally losing something, I believe most wouldn't opt in and why games such as this never have massive numbers.

 

So, let's not pawn this off on G&T, or blame it on the existence of /emotes (that were 100% guaranteed to have been put there for RP purposes). The mess PvP is in is because not enough of **us** have been willing to hold themselves and **others** to a more 'sportsmanlike' conduct.

 

Regardless if an emote was intended for something, devs aren't idiots and if they choose to put something in knowing full well that it will be used for multiple purposes, they are giving particular folks the tools/ammunition to do what they do.

 

I'd prefer as a whole we conducted ourselves with some self respect and that of others, but I do look to G&T to set the expectations and rules.

 

Hoping we'll all come together and be the best gamers we can be to each other is just make believe. 

 

If the policies and rules are left up to interpretation, people will do just that. And we are all very different.

 

Hoping, praying, wishing for folks to do the right thing as YOU see won't ever happen. Expecting someone in charge to decide what is the right thing and hold everyone to is can easily happen and what keeps players in line. Those that cross the line should be given the boot.

 

Pretty much this:

 

Yep, pretty much that. They've "suggested" what is okay or have at least not totally stuck to their guns nor made it clear as day as to what is or isn't okay. Sounds like that might be coming soon and should help everyone get on the same page.

 

I believe it is much more likely for people to test the limits and look for holes than to perfect little angels. Currently the limits and holes need some work.

Edited by allein

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Great post/ responses, I agree.

 

You touched on something that I have been asking for a long while now........... a rating.   When the forum was young, Tully stated PG13.   And since then we have had word filters added ( not a bad thing  really, have grown quite fond of it ) and a "tightening" of moderation in general, most recently with the arrival of the anonymods.  Is this a move towards E for everyone?  And, most recently stated  a forum with one set of Roc and a game with another set, but yet both are linked ( forum ban = game ban).  Not sure how that can even work, you have to be "milder" on the forum than in game?  Perhaps this is the solution to the "forum toxocity"  that some see.  I just don't see how it will help.  Sure, it might keep those "softer" types engaged to game launch, only then to find the game is much more "hardcore"  than they thought.  Kinda misleading if that is the way it goes if you ask me.

 

I guess, as you said, it boils down to ACE, their expectations and how they want to market their game and to who.  I think we all need full disclosure.  Once we know that, I am sure whoever the game is NOT for, does not appeal to, will more than likely remove themselves and alot of issues like this thread is indicitive of will no longer be an issue.  

 

The main issue I see is they started this project with Play to Crush. Clearly they intended to tap into the Shadowbane faithful to get the campaign off the ground. While my experience with SB was limited, doesn't take too much effort to realize that it had a fairly unique community and atmosphere compared to the majority of other games, including other "PVP" ones.

 

I'm not sure if they expected former SB fans to jump on board and forget all the history they had and leave all the baggage behind, but unlike other games that start from scratch, they lured in fans with the allusion that it would be somewhat like a previous experience.

 

SB was a relatively small game and I'm assuming that former SB players won't make up the majority in Crowfall. Which is where the issue continues.

 

Day 1 folks came in with preconceived ideas of what would be acceptable and others have arrived without that.

 

What was not only accepted but expected for Shadowbane is not the norm for most and ACE needs to figure out how everyone can get along without feeling neglected or they need to simply set the tone and deal with those that refuse to leave or conform.

 

I really don't care one way or another how people treat each other, but would prefer it stay somewhat civil (no racist/sexist/religious type stuff) but I will accept what those in control decide is appropriate.

 

Hopefully most of us are adults or at least mature enough to accept things as they are and walk away or play along, regardless of how things turn out.

 

Unfortunately early marketing and some comments set a tone and actions/rules that have come afterwards don't exactly match up which causes chaos and the feels to be hurt, no matter how hardcore someone feels their Forumbane is or whatever.

 

We all want to play and want to play our way, but it isn't our game nor rules. I'm luckily fairly adaptable and will do what's needed to enjoy something that is fun. Hopefully the majority of others can do the same.

 

I believe ACE has done a great job for the most part, but setting the tone, rating, expectations here and in-game now is greatly needed. Even though I get where they are coming from wanting the forum to be about the game and not about us, it is unavoidable and even more so when they accepted money from folks that are very passionate about the interpersonal side of things.

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There's absolutely no danger of the game dying as a result of people being mean to each other on the forums. I don't like to talk poorly made socks on the forums, or in game, (Hy'shen Hugs) but I still think the rules regarding personal attacks, profanity and controversial subjects should be more relaxed.

 

When the game goes live, and political posturing begins to generate poorly made socks talking and propaganda, we're going to want to see and enjoy it. Imagine what a political subforum would be like without forum signatures lampooning one's enemies?!


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"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

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I agree we want their money ( or perhaps ACE is the one that wants it lol ) but I will never agree that anyone should "pretend" to be anything other than what they are.  If I want to do that, I will just go to the  RP section lol.  You labeled me an e-thug a long time ago .................simply based on the fact that I was against the EK's, crafting and non combat archetypes w. dancing animations.  Yet, I have no violations, bans, etc anywhere, either.  I simply want to kill pixels lol.  I don't want to shake hands, have kumbaya moments or limit the type of person that I come into contact with as I play CF.  I don;t want have to think about who or what or why someone is thinking about when I kill them if this is a game that is supposed to be fun.  Your fun is simply not mine I guess.  To label mine "toxic"  is just as bad as if I had labelled yours ( which I never have )  Thank the All Father for the EK's, perhaps that is ACE's solution to any in game drama.  

This is a good time to note that I don't have a problem with most here. I'm sure you are all someone I'd like to chat with about this & that. But if I called you an e-thug, it's probably because you *appear* to be supporting the pvp status quo. Everything you said you want in pvp is spot on. But, for the billionth time, we're not the the ones who have given pvp it's bad name. Mostly, heh. I don't want you or anyone to worry about what other people are thinking when you fight them. But I also don't want anyone to be willing to do those abusive behaviors we all agree are over the line. And more importantly, I want us all to single out and burn down anyone who *does* do those kind of things. And I want all of us to commit publicly and frequently that we don't want that kind of crap around here, and anyone who wants to ruin someone's game "for lols" isn't welcome.


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^^^ ok Mr. Toxophile lol

 

To refresh your memory, the convo's where you called me that ( and others ) was a thread where you were lamenting the fact that ACE was not including non combat archetypes that had dancing animations and I was labelled as such because I told you to pretend to dance in the CW.   YOU 

personally were labelling ppl because ACE was not building the game YOU wanted them to build they way you wanted it and were calling anyone opposed to your ideas E-thugs. Check out the Trammel thread.  In the Trammel thread you were advocating for in game speech that one would use when speaking to their Mama or Sister, only.  If you wouldn't say it to Mama, then don't say it.  You are the one that is constantly equating PVP to real life and "emotional abuse and trama" and labelling ppl e-thugs and sociopaths for the "trauma"  ppl suffered because their pixels are looted time and time again YET Todd has said if you keep dying you are a "bad player"  and Tully has said that if you repeatedly die at the same persons sword " you are doing something wrong"  your fault not the one that is killing you.

 

Every single time I have been called a name ( Idjut, Rude, E-thug, sociopath  etc ) it has been from a person from a "softer" game where they were advocating for a game and game dynamics different from what CF was appearing to be.   THEY are the ones that resort to name calling and labelling.  We will see who exactly calls names first when they have their pixels killed in game.   Bet, it's not the PvP community e-thugs.  The key as I see it is to seperate yourself from your damn pixels ( they aren't you ) and learn to have fun in a game that was not meant to be " sunshine , roses, and head pats.   

 

I maintain "toxicity"  can be manufactured and cries there of can be used to get ppl to act in a "certain" way and then "control"  a certain sector of the population.  It's a game that other sector excels at winning at and that becomes their win.

Edited by ellie

Maybe it not about the happy ending. Maybe it's about the story.

RIP Doc Gonzo "to anyone...speak your mind...defend your position...be prepared for an Argument and enjoy the process of the discussion...that's all part of any good Forum experience"

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Toxicity being attributed to PvP is a recent phenomenon.  Past MMOs had more meaningful PvP with consequences than anything currently on the market and it wasn't a problem.

 

What I think at the root of the issue is entitlement.  Gamers feel like they should log in and play the game exactly how they want without anyone else influencing their experience.  This is completely counter to emergent gameplay.  What Crowfall aims to bring back to the market is where 100% of the time you are playing your experience is influenced by the actions of other players.  

 

A lot of current MMOs help foster these "toxic" behaviors by not having any mechanics that create accountability for your actions to other players.  Players feel entitled to log into a ranked match in PvE gear, be a complete liability to their team, and not get some negative comments. There isn't any outlet for people to display their angst at being paired with this entitled player other than bad words on the internet and thus "toxicity" gets thrown around.  I'll continue to use SWTOR as an example.  I play on a PvP server and refuse to leave it regardless of the "dying" population because of open world PvP.  If you die there are 0 consequences other than a few seconds of your time.  Yet people still flip out when they end up in a PvP situation, on a PvP server, in a PvP area because they are "just trying to finish my daily!"  They made choices to allow themselves to be attacked yet still decided to be in a PvP area in PvE gear and then complain.  Entitlement. 

 

90% of the time open world PvP is a joke, but the 10% where people actually group up and fight is both memorable and fun.  CF is trying to make that 10% the entire focus of their game.

 

Crowfall shouldn't have this problem.  Someone does something you don't like in game... you kill them.  If they do something you really don't like you destroy everything they've built in game, if you can.

Edited by Agelmar

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"Agelmar is King of the Hypocrites and Ruler of the Kingdom of Hypocrytia"

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The trick is not to fix human nature for a game company.  The trick is to provide a good atmosphere for the majority of the player base.  If that means rules to weed out those that provide nothing to the game, then so be it.

 

Everyone has a different definition of "provide nothing to the game."

 

You might think the guy who camps your city and kills you as much as possible "provides nothing to the game."  The camper would disagree.  Mechanics should exist to deter "abusive" behavior which typically means verbal (written) attacks in game.  Mechanics that limit when and where you can fight in a game like Crowfall will not work. 

 

We, all of the community, control the consequences for people who decide to be the villains.


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The trick is not to fix human nature for a game company.  The trick is to provide a good atmosphere for the majority of the player base.  If that means rules to weed out those that provide nothing to the game, then so be it.

But you are not the majority in this game so please stop acting like it. This one game is built by pvpers for pvpers.The voice crying soo loud how mean the pvpers are is NOT the voice they are listening to on this game. Edited by KRIPTIK

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But you are not the majority in this game so please stop acting like it. This one game is built by pvpers for pvpers.The voice crying soo loud how mean the pvpers are is NOT the voice they are listening to on this game.

 

I'm hopeful they aren't really listening to any of our voices yet and stick to the stated goals when "Play to Crush" launched during hype phase.


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Everyone has a different definition of "provide nothing to the game."

 

You might think the guy who camps your city and kills you as much as possible "provides nothing to the game."  The camper would disagree.  Mechanics should exist to deter "abusive" behavior which typically means verbal (written) attacks in game.  Mechanics that limit when and where you can fight in a game like Crowfall will not work. 

 

We, all of the community, control the consequences for people who decide to be the villains.

In game, there is really no such thing as grief or toxicity (in my mind).  You play the game as the game rules dictate.  It is up to the developer to establish the interaction level and rules we players have to work in; hopefully, with some input from the players.

 

War is hell.  Taking advantage of the enemy is key to success.  But in games of war, You have only lost if you play to prevent your enemy from wanting to participate.

 

What community toxicity to me is the world outside the campaign.  The way we interact with each other when it is people talking, not people playing a game.  The real problem is when people cannot tell the difference, the so-called forumbane.  If people need those sort of interactions, them them do so in their own little forum-holes.

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What community toxicity to me is the world outside the campaign.  The way we interact with each other when it is people talking, not people playing a game.  The real problem is when people cannot tell the difference, the so-called forumbane.  If people need those sort of interactions, them them do so in their own little forum-holes.

 

The political part of the forums will very much be part of the game.  If mean words on the internet will hurt your feelings and result in you not playing the game you can either stop reading them and enjoy the game, or find another community to join.

 

There isn't anything that can by typed on a forum that will upset me more than the destruction of the city my guild and I spent hundreds of game hours building.  I do however understand that what / how I type on the forums can influence the outcome of the siege.  


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The political part of the forums will very much be part of the game.  If mean words on the internet will hurt your feelings and result in you not playing the game you can either stop reading them and enjoy the game, or find another community to join.

 

There isn't anything that can by typed on a forum that will upset me more than the destruction of the city my guild and I spent hundreds of game hours building.  I do however understand that what / how I type on the forums can influence the outcome of the siege.  

You jump to a conclusion about words on the internet hurting me.  I am more referring to the useless rambling of children playing internet tough-guy.  The only thing you may accomplish is people getting into a good game who cannot get past the "toxic" forums.

 

"Political" in this context is anything but.  It is an excuse to be uncivil and worthless.  It can be reduced to nothing but post-counts to see if the chatter is even more noticing.  A smart person posts nothing but deception, and looks to see how the unwashed masses so eagerly provide information that should be kept secret.

Edited by Savevsdeathmagic

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You jump to a conclusion about words on the internet hurting me.  I am more referring to the useless rambling of children playing internet tough-guy.  The only thing you may accomplish is people getting into a good game who cannot get past the "toxic" forums.

 

"Political" in this context is anything but.  It is an excuse to be uncivil and worthless.  It can be reduced to nothing but post-counts to see if the chatter is even more noticing.  A smart person posts nothing but deception, and looks to see how the unwashed masses so eagerly provide information that should be kept secret.

 

I wish you luck in Crowfall.  I hope you find some enjoyment from the game.  My advice will be to stay out of The Dregs and off the campaign focused political forums.  At no point have I been uncivil or have my posts been worthless.  We are just on opposite sides of an opinion.  My opinion is based off of playing Shadowbane and posting / moderating those official forums for about seven years. Those forums were not toxic at all, in fact they created a community that was so tight knit that many are still talking and anxiously awaiting Crowfall to play together six years after Shadowbane closed.


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I wish you luck in Crowfall.  I hope you find some enjoyment from the game.  My advice will be to stay out of The Dregs and off the campaign focused political forums.  At no point have I been uncivil or have my posts been worthless.  We are just on opposite sides of an opinion.  My opinion is based off of playing Shadowbane and posting / moderating those official forums for about seven years. Those forums were not toxic at all, in fact they created a community that was so tight knit that many are still talking and anxiously awaiting Crowfall to play together six years after Shadowbane closed.

You are observing the same things that alot of the rest of us have.  They don't ( they=many) have respect for the person that created SB.  Ya'll broke your game according to them.   They don't "like"  your game, how you played it, what it was about or that community that ya'll formed that has lasted all these many years.  Basically ya'll were considered toxic before the first week of this forum was over because it became apparent that the game was going to be PvP based with  FFA and full loot.   It wasn't going to be "soft" .   There were no quests and the players were going to make the story.  And all the stories were not going to have a "happy ending".  And, last but not least, ya'll spoke your minds.  You didn't just "yes"  the dev's to death, you questioned , suggested and sometimes even went against what they were saying and you disagreed.    And..........perhaps, YOUR opinions were even going to be listened to and respected.  Some of the most intelligent ppl I have spoken to on these forums have come from "your" game.   Surely all that has to be toxic................ lol.

 

I want the devs to stick to their vision, Play2Crush  and everything that entails.  That's what we were promised and that is what I expect.  Nothing less.

Edited by ellie

Maybe it not about the happy ending. Maybe it's about the story.

RIP Doc Gonzo "to anyone...speak your mind...defend your position...be prepared for an Argument and enjoy the process of the discussion...that's all part of any good Forum experience"

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