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cloudfly

Question about MMO's in general

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A more balanced explanation might be that people who only like PvE enjoy working WITH all other players as opposed to against some of them. And no topic about PvP would be complete without a reminder of the obvious: PvP is where the most vile, disgusting, angry, and sociopathic behaviors are let loose, against other players, who are presumably there to have fun. Few find being on the receiving end of that to be fun.

 

You could step back a few steps and apply the same view to the internet and society as a whole.

 

Doesn't have a lot to do with PVE or PVP.

 

People are people and sadly many act poorly when sitting behind a screen and have little accountability.

 

Youtube comments, twitter, FB, gaming chat, forums for anything, yadda yadda.

 

Put enough people together with enough differing views and stuff happens, no matter if they are shooting each other in their virtual faces, killing dragons "together", or squabbling abut the ability to squabble on forums.

 

Obviously not everyone of any particular group is this or that, but sadly a few acting up overshadow the whole sometimes. Hence stereotypes and what not.

 

Humans in general aren't the most pleasant creatures around, but there are plenty out there that are pretty dang amazing from all walks of life.

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I've played almost every major MMO that has been released since Asherons Call / EQ.

 

I am one of the weird ones who loves PVE and PVP equally. I love emergent gameplay, I love open seamless worlds. etc.

 

I think many MMORPGS have done so many things right but they did other things wrong. (my opinion)

 

Why has there never been say an MMO that has been made with the following:

 

....Everything....

 

What is all of your ideas about the perect MMORPG? How would you make your own MMORPG?

 

I started with MUDs and other online experiences and get where you are coming from.

 

Unfortunately, the amount of time, money, dev talent, and most of all fans that it would take to pull off the "perfect" game is too much.

 

It seems to be very hard to blend play styles into one game where they are all significant to each other and don't "force" people to do something they don't want to.

 

To have an open world that has fans of all types playing side by side is pretty much impossible. Not a lot of folks like us that seem to enjoy all sides of the experience. Although I've grown tired of the lack of challenge in fighting AI and haven't played a single player game in years and avoid strict PVE mmos completely.

 

Sort of like asking why the people of the world don't get along. Why can't we just all do what makes us happy and leave each other alone. Just isn't that simple.

 

As others have said, I think games like EQN are sort of going in that direction, but unless the foundation is solid, everything on top will just fall apart.

 

At this time, my "perfect" mmo isn't perfect at all. It is very good at a few things and doesn't try to shove too much into a small space.

 

I realized a long time ago that my ideal game, opinions, wants/needs, are my own and not many others want the exact same thing as me. I'm willing to let go of some of my "perfect" game bullet points if that results in a product that is decent and can be enjoyed by others. 

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" PvP is where the most vile, disgusting, angry, and sociopathic behaviors are let loose, against other players, who are presumably there to have fun. Few find being on the receiving end of that to be fun."

 

That sounds like a very biased and all encompassing statement to include all individuals that have ever enjoyed PvP from someone that doesn't enjoy it and wants to "label" those that do.

 

You may want to re-read the post you quoted. No where did they say everyone who enjoys PVP fit the criteria listed. Their statement is also not incorrect. You seem to have taken personal offense by what they posted. As someone who has played more MMO games than I can remember, and played them primarily for the PVP content, their statement is fairly accurate. The only area I would rank below PVP in terms of toxicity would be raiding. Edited by Dameon

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I am sure the only reason CF lacks PvE content is money and time.

 

Ofc it is. PvE content (done correctly) cost a lot. That's why MMOs like SWTOR had huge budget; they had to pay writers, voice acting etc.

Edited by krema

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That attitude is not unique to just PvP though.   Gonna use W101 as an example.  Go play one of their end game dungeons and even though it is turned based you will find the same behavior , the same name calling, the same elitist attitude.   It's just ppl thinking they are "better"  than others.  Period.  

It's not 'elitism' dude. It's maliciousness. On these very damn forums we had a 'hardcore' pvp'er admit he literally desired to ruin the game for his opponents. Sure, there are some d-bags running in raids. In my fairly modest raid experience, I have never been t-bagged, or followed around afterwards getting harassed, or been subject to the same kind of viciousness. Yes, people get yelled at, or called names when they mess up. But I'm sure there are some hardcore raid guilds that take this to the extreme.

 

But you can't get around the simple fact that PvP is a contest **between people**, and this more personal connection amplifies the negativity. But you don't have to believe me: how many pure MMO pvp games are out right now? How many have there EVER been? Now compare that to pure PvE or even combo games like WoW that control PvP in some fashion. Yeah.

 

I still think more intense PvP is possible in a PvE game. My example of the faction system in SWG allowed for one such example. Very few ran around overt, because few wanted to have to be on guard every second you are in game. But some did. Hell, I remember going overt a few times in a city, and feeling really nervous about it, heh. The only thing SWG didn't have was the looting.


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Humans in general aren't the most pleasant creatures around, but there are plenty out there that are pretty dang amazing from all walks of life.

The funny thing is that this IS possible. I knew some people in a couple different pvp guilds where the guild leadership took on the responsibility of enforcing a code of conduct on their membership. I'm sure there are a lot of groups of people who all collectively choose not to be e-thugs, and maintain standards. The problem is that it only takes one e-thug to ruin the fun for a whole group of people. And the e-thugs get off on it. They actually crag about it. Therefore we don't get to have the games most of us would like to play. And then the e-thugs start calling themselves 'hardcore'. 

 

I suppose it could work, but only if the devs are willing to pay for it. It will take a lot of in-game enforcement, which equals salaries in real life, which is money they otherwise could have spent on development. But if it meant having a more sportsman-like game, I'd be for it. 


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It's not 'elitism' dude. It's maliciousness. On these very damn forums we had a 'hardcore' pvp'er admit he literally desired to ruin the game for his opponents. Sure, there are some d-bags running in raids. In my fairly modest raid experience, I have never been t-bagged, or followed around afterwards getting harassed, or been subject to the same kind of viciousness. Yes, people get yelled at, or called names when they mess up. But I'm sure there are some hardcore raid guilds that take this to the extreme.

 

But you can't get around the simple fact that PvP is a contest **between people**, and this more personal connection amplifies the negativity. But you don't have to believe me: how many pure MMO pvp games are out right now? How many have there EVER been? Now compare that to pure PvE or even combo games like WoW that control PvP in some fashion. Yeah.

 

I still think more intense PvP is possible in a PvE game. My example of the faction system in SWG allowed for one such example. Very few ran around overt, because few wanted to have to be on guard every second you are in game. But some did. Hell, I remember going overt a few times in a city, and feeling really nervous about it, heh. The only thing SWG didn't have was the looting.

Tox.  You are still judging everything on SWG :)   And wanting another game to be what it was to you.  You are just as bad as the SB'ers that want CF to be SB 2.0.   I know the "statement"  and the person that you are speaking of.   I am surprised after all this time you are holding on to that one particular statement.  You have to "wait and see"  what CF will be.  Will there be malicious folks in campaigns?  Sure.  But they are everywhere, in PvE games, on the road with you, standing behind you in the grocery store.   You can't think that one statement made months back can ruin a game and because of that one statement ALL PvP'ers must now be tethered and strung up for fear someone's day will be ruined.  ONE is never representative of the whole.  Ever.   

 

You sound always very disappointed that CF is not following SWG's game model.   And because it isn't it's going to be offensive.  You have to give it and the community a chance.  Gordon says it will be unique.  Not like SWG, not like SB, not like W101.  You have to make peace with that  lol   The more you expect toxicity the more you are going to go out and search for it.  Guaranteed you will find it because it will be a self fullfilled prophecy.  Because you want it to be.  


Maybe it not about the happy ending. Maybe it's about the story.

RIP Doc Gonzo "to anyone...speak your mind...defend your position...be prepared for an Argument and enjoy the process of the discussion...that's all part of any good Forum experience"

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You sound always very disappointed that CF is not following SWG's game model.   And because it isn't it's going to be offensive.  You have to give it and the community a chance.  Gordon says it will be unique.  Not like SWG, not like SB, not like W101.  You have to make peace with that  lol   The more you expect toxicity the more you are going to go out and search for it.  Guaranteed you will find it because it will be a self fullfilled prophecy.  Because you want it to be.  

I hear you, but (shocking!) I kinda disagree. My fond remembrance and frequent allusion to SWG is because it so often applies. I knew from the very start that CF wasn't going to be SWG. There's a thread in the SWG board about it from way back. The crafting isn't nearly as involved or complex, and that was the spine of SWG. Still, I think it's important to own up to the reality we face (as it pertains to pvp to the general playerbase). You can't dodge that reality by stirring up smoke and mirrors, heh.


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No smoke and mirrors lol Just a hint to maybe wait on the new RoC is all. Gw says they will be releasing the in game ones. I am gonna wait till then to pass judgement


Maybe it not about the happy ending. Maybe it's about the story.

RIP Doc Gonzo "to anyone...speak your mind...defend your position...be prepared for an Argument and enjoy the process of the discussion...that's all part of any good Forum experience"

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DAOC was probably the best mix of pvp and pve that i have ever played. That being said i have played mmo's with better pve or pvp than daoc. But as a complete package i think Daoc did more things right then wrong. Mixing pve and pvp is no easy task many mmo's have tried and fallen short. Even companies which had a successful pvp/pve game fell way short with another title.

 

One thing i have learned is that pvp needs to be built into a game from the ground up. Fortunately crowfall understands this and is not tacking it on as an afterthought. Hopefully what pve they may have will be more engaging then a previous title of theirs.

 

I am another one of those players that enjoy pve and pvp. Dependent on the game i may do one more then the other. In Daoc and Wow did more pvp especially when it came to end game content. Most mmo's i did more pve either due to lack of meaningfull pvp or lack of pvp. Being a  part of a guild that boasted 1000 players in and mmo there were very few who only like pve or very few who only liked pvp. 90 percent of them participated in both activities.

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DAOC was probably the best mix of pvp and pve that i have ever played. That being said i have played mmo's with better pve or pvp than daoc.

 

+1

 

The difficulty lies in the mixing of those 2 aspects (PvE & PvP); only a few managed to do that (I can only think of doac & wow tbh, and mb Rift even if it's a huge wow-like).

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Lolerz, WoW doesn't have pvpz.

 

It had. When it was first released (10 years ago), it had what I can call PvP. You had (on PvP servers ofc) open fights during questing & near major cities/dungeons/world boss, some areas also had PvP objectives, you had a honor/ranking system. Like Cynwulf said, it wasn't the best PvP (bi-faction, no "huge" objectives such as fortress etc.) but it was mixed with big PvE features (raid40, big dungeons etc.).

 

But you are also right: now WoW does not have what I can call PvP. It's more like a side feature which really feels like set apart from the game since everything from arena to battleground are instanced (also, it is way too focused on e-penis with that crappy ranking stuff).

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The problem with PvE MMO's is the constant need for content.

 

 

When your game is centered around scripted monsters, events, dungeons, raids or what have you: These will get stale after a period of time.

When players run out of "new" monsters or bosses to kill, they will keep asking for more in an endless cycle. 

Thus developers will have to enter a race with their own playerbase to keep creating new content whilst keeping pace with the speed the players consume it at. 

 

Let's take WoW as the most obvious example: It's clear Blizzard is currently struggling to keep giving players new and interesting things to do. 

Besides Blizzard's flagship MMO, there are countless other examples of MMO's "falling flat" once players reach end game and clear content faster then developers can produce it.

 

After some time, players will break the 4th wall themselves and see this "Themepark"  for what it is: A cycle of new rides to que for.

While there is nothing wrong with the themepark-model per se, sooner or later there will be a point where the magic fades and the only reason to keep playing is either the people/your friends, or the time already invested keeping you there.  

 

 

One of the benefits of a PvP focus, is as TJC said: Players -are- the content. 

Why spend time and money on writing storylines (that may of may not be well received), when players can create stories themselves just by playing naturally.

The big kicker is: These stories actually have meaning, since we're not talking about King scripted NPC asking you to collect 10 beararses, but about actual players asking you to help them overthrow that other player who is turning out to be the big antagonist of the current campaign/server/realm. 

 

You cannot write for that: That stuff is what stays with you. The stories behind EVE-online are evidence of this, these are not fan-fiction, those massive battles, corporate thefts and rivalries are real and player-created.

 

As another WoW example: As scripted as that game is, the battles between Southshore (Alliance faction town) and Tarren Mill (Nearby Horde faction town) are still being remembered by many as the most epic times in the game. Even though there was never any point to it: It was entirely made up of players who happened to run into eachother and started brawling, for no other reason other then because they -could-.

 

 

That does not mean however, that some degree of PvE has no place in Crowfall.

 

In one of the Dev interviews, I recall TJC mentioning he wanted monsters to be there as an overarching, always present threat: Much like the walkers in The Walking Dead TV-show (the show was noted as one of the sources of inspiration, next to GoT and EVE).

He liked how the walkers where the first immediate apparent enemy, but how over the  course of the show it turned out other humans could be just as dangerous to the group, if not more. 

 

Now, I like this idea very much: To have be aware, of not only enemy players, but also a credible danger out in the world.

Good monster design could help bring a campaign-world to life, something I was worried about: How worlds would possibly feel empty en void.   

In order to pull this off however, PvE should be meaningfull. But that's a whole other subject altogether and I should create another thread about that.  

 

 

 

Anyway, TL;DR:

PvE: Scripted, pre-arranged content, gets boring after a while. 

PvP: Player created content, potentially endless content as long as there are players. 

 

 

 

 

As always, just my 2c :) 


~Strategy is the art of making use of time and space.
I'm less concerned about the latter than the former: Space we can recover, lost time never.

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Anyway, TL;DR:

PvE: Scripted, pre-arranged content, gets boring after a while. 

PvP: Player created content, potentially endless content as long as there are players. 

 

 

 

Yes, but the way the industry deals with the content problem for PVE is by turning the grind up to 11. vanilla wow did that. and the content they did have lasted awhile. you can balance your pve around your pvp balance. so idk. whatever

 

also companies need to stop drawing a friggin line between PVE and PVP. what i've found is, the vast majority of pvp'ers don't mind PVE, but most PVE'ers do not like PVP. I say to them, fine, dont play. 

Edited by cloudfly

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People who "win" in PvE centered games are those that have countless hours to spend in-game playing against pre-scripted-predictable-time-based-repetitive-monsters/NPCs.

 

People that "win" in Crowfall are people who can crush the faces of other players regardless of how they feel about it. If you are able to crush faces more than not, you win. If you suck at PvP you lose. You can't really compare the same genres.. MMO-PvP games (which there are VERY little of) are not the same as MMO-PvE/MMO-PvE/PvP Hybrids. 

 

 

also,

PvP is where the most vile, disgusting, angry, and sociopathic behaviors are let loose, against other players, who are presumably there to have fun. Few find being on the receiving end of that to be fun.

 

LOL. You're right, people who enjoy playing chess are nothing but sociopathic disgusting angry people. Good thing Crowfall is nothing like Chess.. not like we're trying to take control of more spaces on the board (map) disposing of anyone we need to to get there. Heck imagine if the objective was to take out someone's guild leader (king) and to take their city (side of the board).. that would make for a very vile game indeed.

 

In-fact did you know that in Chess only ONE of two players could win??!???!? Who in their right mind would like being on the receiving (losing) end of the board.. who the hell would consider that fun? Sociopaths, all of them.

Edited by thenebrosity

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lol ok.. I wonder if I'll still be able to steal directly from people's inventories.. hrmmm

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If World of Warcraft had Full PvP loot, and where players/guilds could own property/cities that could be sieged and taken over....there would be no need for other games.

 

I never understood, why a mega gaming company like Blizzard,with 10's of millions of dollars per month.... didn't offer a single server with these rule sets....just to try it out at least and see what happened?

 

Blizzard/WoW could have offered a "Hardcore" server....just one....at the very least just to test the market.

 

But, when your making that kind of money per month.....I guess you dont have to.

 

"If it's not broke...dont fix it" must be their motto.....

Edited by Agravenn
Picture removed.

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