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First Look: Knight powers and UI - Official discussion thread

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I meant that every X class will play like every other X class and every Y discipline will play like every other Y discipline.

 

With only 10 abilities there's not really much room for "standing out" as a good player compared to a bad player. Especially not if all 10 abilities are all low CD and pretty much "use whenever they are up".

 

10 extremely useful abilities is far greater than 3 useful abilities and 37 mostly useless, high situational ones


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I don't think that's accurate.  

 

To steal a page from David Sirlin (one of the game designers that I respect the most), the key to mastering a system isn't just optimizing your character and play style.  The real mastery is in YOMI, which is a japanese word for "reading" -- being able to read into the mind of your opponent and predict his move, ideally before he has even decided what move he will make.  You can design a Level-3 YOMI system in as little as 4 moves.  

 

A master-skill player would know each archetype, promotion and discipline class tree intimately, be able to gauge ALL of his opponent's available options in a moment, and intuit how he (the player behind the keyboard -- not the archetype) is most likely to react to any move or counter.

 

I believe that the model we are using could be the best of both worlds: it gives the breadth of options, but provides enough information to allow a master player will be able to predict their opponent's moves, before they even make them.  

 

I could be wrong, of course...  I guess we'll find out!

 

Todd

ACE

 

What happens when you read your enemy, but you don't have the right tool set to react to your opponent?

 

That's pretty much what happened in every other action MMO with a limited 10-12 abilities skillset and if we go by the Knight skillset(I know it's a preview) that will also happen here.

 

Please try to avoid that in Crowfall.

Edited by macavity

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What happens when you read your enemy, but you don't have the right tool set to react to your opponent? That's pretty much what happened in every other action MMO with a limited 10-12 abilities skillset and if we go by the Knight skillset(I know it's a preview) that will also happen here.

Then you retreat out of an unfavorable situation...


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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You can't always retreat out of unfavorable situations. Especially not in a game that revolves around sieges and territorial control.

Ok then you lose the fight because you've allowed a situation to occur where you are at a disadvantage.  They've already said characters won't be good at everything, they'll have to evaluate what kind of situations they put themselves into. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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What happens when you read your enemy, but you don't have the right tool set to react to your opponent?

 

That's pretty much what happened in every other action MMO with a limited 10-12 abilities skillset and if we go by the Knight skillset(I know it's a preview) that will also happen here.

 

Please try to avoid that in Crowfall.

Like VN just said as well as relying on teammates and allies to fill those gaps. Its a team based game after all. No one class should be able to do everything all the time.

 

This game, based on dev statements seems to be designed around choices and having those choices matter, so if you build your toon a certain way yes you might be weak to certain things. That's part of the design not a flaw.

Edited by pang

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What happens when you read your enemy, but you don't have the right tool set to react to your opponent?

 

That's pretty much what happened in every other action MMO with a limited 10-12 abilities skillset and if we go by the Knight skillset(I know it's a preview) that will also happen here.

 

Please try to avoid that in Crowfall.

 

wut?

 

There won't be 1 v 1 class balance.  This has been explained often by the dev team.  Some classes regardless if they have 10 or 45 powers on their UI will not have the right tool to react to their opponent.


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"Agelmar is King of the Hypocrites and Ruler of the Kingdom of Hypocrytia"

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What happens when you read your enemy, but you don't have the right tool set to react to your opponent?

 

 

Interesting question.  Let's flip it around; should every player should have the right tool to react to every opponent in every situation?

 

Todd


J Todd Coleman

ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.

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Ok then you lose the fight because you've allowed a situation to occur where you are at a disadvantage.  They've already said characters won't be good at everything, they'll have to evaluate what kind of situations they put themselves into. 

 

Like VN just said as well as relying on teammates and allies to fill those gaps. Its team based game after all. No one class should be able to do everything all the time.

 

This game based on dev statements seems to be based on choices and having those choice matter, so if you build your toon a certain way yes you might be weak to certain things. That's part of the design not a flaw.

I think you're misunderstanding me. I don't want everyone to be able to do everything. On the other hand, I don't ever want to be in a situation where I can't do anything either.

 

I don't want another class to 100% counter me if he's using 1 finger to play. I should still be able to outplay a person through skill.

Edited by macavity

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You can't always retreat out of unfavorable situations. Especially not in a game that revolves around sieges and territorial control.

 

You seem to be a player that wants an ability for every situation; a counter for every attack, or a get-out-of-jail-free card.

 

I believe the response being used on these boards is this might not be the game for you.   :lol:


 

Sorry you turned into a two-bit carebear whose feelings get hurt over forum banter.

 

 

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I think you're misunderstanding me. I don't want everyone to be able to do everything. On the other hand, I don't ever want to be in a situation where I can't do anything either.

 

I don't want another class to 100% counter me if he's using 1 finger to play. I should still be able to outplay a person through skill.

 

Pretty sure Crowfall will hit the right balance between "not being able to do anything" and "Neo in Matrix".  :P

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I think you're misunderstanding me. I don't want everyone to be able to do everything. On the other hand, I don't ever want to be in a situation where I can't do anything either.

 

I don't want another class to 100% counter me if he's using 1 finger to play. I should still be able to outplay a person through skill.

Sure you can outskill people, but there will also be some pretty hard counters that would require a tremendous level of outskilling to overcome... that's the beauty of unbalanced open world pvp. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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You seem to be a player that wants an ability for every situation; a counter for every attack, or a get-out-of-jail-free card.

 

I believe the response being used on these boards is this might not be the game for you.   :lol:

No, I'm just a person who advocates actual skill over "this guy plays X class, so he automatically counters Y and Y won't be able to do anything at all" even if the game isn't about 1v1.


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No, I'm just a person who advocates actual skill over "this guy plays X class, so he automatically counters Y and Y won't be able to do anything at all" even if the game isn't about 1v1.

Every game these days claims skill matters, we won't know how much skill matters til we play the game... but this game has archetypes, it is not completely open character building, so you can't expect there not to be counters...


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I think you're misunderstanding me. I don't want everyone to be able to do everything. On the other hand, I don't ever want to be in a situation where I can't do anything either.

 

I don't want another class to 100% counter me if he's using 1 finger to play. I should still be able to outplay a person through skill.

Don't think anyone is saying it should be a hard locked 100% Rock, paper, scissors either. Just saying there will be things that based on how you build your toon you'll be weak to. Can you overcome that with skill? Sure. But that doesn't mean we should be given every tool for every situation at any time.

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Every game these days claims skill matters, we won't know how much skill matters til we play the game... but this game has archetypes, it is not completely open character building, so you can't expect there not to be counters...

I am completely fine with counters and counterclasses, as long as it's not a 100% win for a guy who is mediocre against a guy who is super good.


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I am completely fine with counters and counterclasses, as long as it's not a 100% win for a guy who is mediocre against a guy who is super good.

The game is action combat, such concerns are premature imo... if a guy is really not very good he would probably have trouble using his kit anyway...


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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fewer abilities lead to a lower skill ceiling, thus more players reaching that ceiling.

 

aka skilled players dont stand out as much, as with a higher skill ceiling...

 

dunno how you can't see that tbh

 

So what your saying is, the amount of abilities a class has, increases its skill ceiling.  This may be true for single player games. But in pvp, which Crowfall is,  difficulty is determined by your opponents skill. If your opponent is a monkey, you can beat them easily. If your opponent is a Professional Korean Gamer, then you're the monkey

 

Just look at League of Legends. You get 5 abilities. By your logic, a noobie should be able to rise quickly in the ranks against better players since there is apparently a "low skill ceiling"

 

Go win a LOL tournament and demonstrate to us how easy it is to win with fewer abilities.

 

Easy to learn, difficult to master is the goal

Edited by evade2015

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You continue to ignore the word "available" in your responses. Having seven defenses and twenty one attacks (I'll assume you also have utility, movement, and 'weird stuff' in that total somewhere) would probably be on the high side, the very most I would want to see once disciplines are accounted for. 

 

The trouble is that you are still lumping them all into the very limiting ten-ability-button framework. Your solution does allow for a wide variety of reactionary abilities and accounts for my concerns there... but at the cost of hiding all the attack abilities within 3 ability-chains! Which in turn cuts down dramatically on the available offensive combinations.

 

In my mind, the ideal version of this system meets both groups halfway. Keep ability bloat down, sure. But don't arbitrarily stop at ten buttons and try to force every archetype to conform to that, or I believe the overall combat model will end up watered down and less fun.

 

Here is the thing though.. I agree with 20 hotkeys.. I myself have no trouble managing that...

But I what Im still trying to defend their design option because I dont see it as failed nor limited.

 

As far as offensive chains.. you have 4 keys, 1 mouse a total of 5 openers.. could argue that more would make the game more interesting or complex.. fair enough.. but there is also one area we didnt discus... counters.. 

 

any of the 7 defenses/blocks could also trigger a counter combo.. (HEY DEVs, hope you are listening)

 

So there are all in all still a bunch of options a paths and abilities and decision and the centaur knocks the mage projecting him towards you and you were too busy paying attention to your keyboard and didnt dodge that! :P  hehehehhe

 

I dunno man.. Im going the optimistic path here.. and I know it`s an initial design.. lets see how it fairs... 


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