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Pann

First Look: Knight powers and UI - Official discussion thread

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Can be argued like I have already that having a ton of buttons reduces skill because then you don't have to think as much you just faceroll the keyboard until you win. With limited you not only have to be skilled in combat but also in building your toon and pre-planning and adapt to the situation with what you have. That is way more skill based then simply having a screen full of buttons to use, IMO.

 

That's because of lazy ability design.

 

If you have 40 spells basically all doing the same, then yes you can faceroll. But noone is advocating for that.

Or do you see anyone who is proposing that?

 

I see people suggesting unique abilities, that might not be used every fight, but will have their use and when utilized correctly will give you an advantage.

 

This is simply not possible with limited ability sets, no matter what you guys say. It will stay a simplified (dumbed down) version.

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In my example I suggested 7 defenses or block skills, and 21 attacks.

Thats not enough in your opinion?

 

It`s ok if it`s not.. it`s your opinion after all and you are entitled to it.. 

You continue to ignore the word "available" in your responses. Having seven defenses and twenty one attacks (I'll assume you also have utility, movement, and 'weird stuff' in that total somewhere) would probably be on the high side, the very most I would want to see once disciplines are accounted for. 

 

The trouble is that you are still lumping them all into the very limiting ten-ability-button framework. Your solution does allow for a wide variety of reactionary abilities and accounts for my concerns there... but at the cost of hiding all the attack abilities within 3 ability-chains! Which in turn cuts down dramatically on the available offensive combinations.

 

In my mind, the ideal version of this system meets both groups halfway. Keep ability bloat down, sure. But don't arbitrarily stop at ten buttons and try to force every archetype to conform to that, or I believe the overall combat model will end up watered down and less fun.

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I'd love an answer from staff on which they'll be enacting: the WoW/old MMO multi-toolbar route, or the GW1/ESO/etc toolbar with limited number of slots.

 

Seems pretty clear to me they are going towards the limited number of slots way. Been hinting at it and the first paragraphs in this article seem to suggest that as well.

 

Our Approach: Minimum Viable Powers

We have been building each archetype with what we think would be a ‘minimum viable power’ kit for that archetype to be useful and fun in combat. This means that the current list isn’t final, and some of the powers might even jump to other archetypes (or be cut entirely!) as we continue development.

You’ll also notice that this is just our first iteration of the combat user interface (UI). As such, we are also leaving ourselves room on the powers tray for the player to eventually slot additional combat powers (i.e. the ones that the player will acquire via disciplines, advantages, or class promotions). We also assume there will be another non-combat related power bar when we start building those systems. 

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Yea, that would be great. We'll have plenty of time to test the interface and the abilities.

 

If ACE and the testers feel like something has to be modified, I'm pretty sure they will not hesitate to do so.

 

They already played with (part of) the recent combat build and, considering that they're showing us all of this, it's likely satisfying enough for now.

I hear what you're saying, but I tend to agree with the earlier poster when he said why not give feedback now, before ACE spends months of effort building out the combat model. It will be much more resource and time intensive to make major changes then, so feedback is potentially more valuable (and actionable) right now.

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I hear what you're saying, but I tend to agree with the earlier poster when he said why not give feedback now, before ACE spends months of effort building out the combat model. It will be much more resource and time intensive to make major changes then, so feedback is potentially more valuable (and actionable) right now.

Which is why they are play testing Combat first. Its fine to say and think you won't like this system but no one can really know for until they actually play it and see it for themselves.

Edited by pang

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Seems pretty clear to me they are going towards the limited number of slots way. Been hinting at it and the first paragraphs in this article seem to suggest that as well.

 

Our Approach: Minimum Viable Powers

We have been building each archetype with what we think would be a ‘minimum viable power’ kit for that archetype to be useful and fun in combat. This means that the current list isn’t final, and some of the powers might even jump to other archetypes (or be cut entirely!) as we continue development.

You’ll also notice that this is just our first iteration of the combat user interface (UI). As such, we are also leaving ourselves room on the powers tray for the player to eventually slot additional combat powers (i.e. the ones that the player will acquire via disciplines, advantages, or class promotions). We also assume there will be another non-combat related power bar when we start building those systems. 

"We also assume there will be another non-combat related power bar when we start building those systems."

 

If they changed that from "non-combat", I think everyone would be happy. Everything can fit into a total of 20 hotkeys/slots. Not saying that all archetype/promotion/discipline combos absolutely NEED to use those 20, since some combos will obviously be easier to play than others, but 20 would be a nice foundation to have.

 

Some combos could maybe only use 10, but some more advanced combos could use up all 20.

 

With 20 slots, you can have archetype abilities + promotion abilities + discipline abilities + cooldowns + utility + buffs + potions/food/etc.

Edited by macavity

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I hear what you're saying, but I tend to agree with the earlier poster when he said why not give feedback now, before ACE spends months of effort building out the combat model. It will be much more resource and time intensive to make major changes then, so feedback is potentially more valuable (and actionable) right now.

 

I agree that the feedback is appreciable and the developers have repeated several times how the community's ideas are important for the project.

 

What I think, however, is that Crowfall is a very different type of game and it might be very hard, based on a UI screenshot and a couple of lines of description, to have an accurate idea of how the combat will be like, and to make a recommendation on how to improve the ability pool / bars / UI.

 

The only people who have played Crowfall so far are the developers (who are also gamers) and they seem to judge that powers and skills they designed are fine for now.

 

Once we try it, I'm pretty sure that our feedbacks will be even more valuable.  :P

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I agree that the feedback is appreciable and the developers have repeated several times how the community's ideas are important for the project.

 

What I think, however, is that Crowfall is a very different type of game and it might be very hard, based on a UI screenshot and a couple of lines of description, to have an accurate idea of how the combat will be like, and to make a recommendation on how to improve the ability pool / bars / UI.

 

The only people who have played Crowfall so far are the developers (who are also gamers) and they seem to judge that powers and skills they designed are fine for now.

 

Once we try it, I'm pretty sure that our feedbacks will be even more valuable.  :P

Seeing where they at and making suggestions this is exactly the time!  Some people just need to learn that just because they suggested it does not mean it will be implemented, and the players have to learn to be flexible and evaluate each iteration of combat/UI/etc with fresh eyes and not solely on their pre-conceived notions of the perfect set-up is.  The best method is for devs to provide feedback as often as they can, both for why and why not that considered something.

 

Suggestion now, give them ideas and reduce cycle times to getting it better.

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"We also assume there will be another non-combat related power bar when we start building those systems."

 

If they changed that from "non-combat", I think everyone would be happy. Everything can fit into a total of 20 hotkeys/slots. Not saying that all archetype/promotion/discipline combos absolutely NEED to use those 20, since some combos will obviously be easier to play than others, but 20 would be a nice foundation to have.

 

Some combos could maybe only use 10, but some more advanced combos could use up all 20.

 

With 20 slots, you can have archetype abilities + promotion abilities + discipline abilities + cooldowns + utility + buffs + potions/food/etc.

We also need to keep in mind that with the combo system we won't even need as many slots. Meaning if you have 10 abilities on that 10 slot bar and if say half of them are combos that chain into 1-2 other abilities thats roughly 10 more slots we don't even need to have.

 

So yeah IMO 3 bars between active and utility type non-combat skills seems more than enough for an action, combo based combat system.

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Which is why they are play testing Combat first. Its fine to say and think you won't like this system but no one can really know for until they actually play it and see it for themselves.

 

That's cool. If the developers read this and have real answers to the concerns presented, awesome! Go them! 

 

If they read this and it jogs them into thinking about cases or consequences they hadn't considered, that's cool too. Really, as long as the best product possible is the result of all this, we all win.

 

There is absolutely no reason not to share opinions and logical theorizing now, however, and many reasons to do so. The "no one can really know" argument is a conversation ender - but the devs want us to converse, so why would anyone accept that premise as a reason not to talk? Moreover, it cuts both ways. You don't know that anything they've posted will work at all. None of us do. We are ALL theorycrafting how this thing will work, even the devs, who are only a few steps ahead of us at this point.

 

So yeah, I'm going to keep thinking critically and offering ideas and opinions throughout the process. :)

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It's interesting to me how many players want to limit their choices to just barely enough to fill 6 buttons. Imo drown us with powers to choose from. Those that only want a select few can just shorten their hotbar and pick the best ones for them but to say "don't give me a lot of powers because I don't use them all" is to limit everyone to that choice. Many people like myself love having a plethora of options to fiddle with.


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"Having tons of different buttons to push doesn't make you smart or good at the game. Having fewer buttons doesn't make you dumb or worse at the game. A literal comparison of # of abilities to # of abilities is not a valid comparison for depth of play or complexity that a skillful player can use.


 


If you have 30 buttons and your rotation is to push each button in order from 1->30, is that a smart game? Can you as a skillful and smart player press those buttons from 1->30 better than a worse player? Now what about if you have 5 buttons that require situational awareness, combo off each other, and a skilled player can achieve let's say a ~10% DPS gain over someone else using those same 5 buttons just by making smart decisions of when to press them.


 


What's your opinion now on what number of abilities means to making combat complex, smart, or skillful? Do fewer skills actually mean a "dumber" game? Does more of something just seem better? Is context of mechanics/gameplay/skill trumped by counting how many of something there is?"


 


This is a good quote and i am not as concerned about how many buttons we will have 10 may not be enough if thats the case they will add more. I think its a good place to start and test it out for now.


 


Whats more important is they stick with the group play balance over 1 v 1. Daoc did this and it was a great pvp oriented game because of this.

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It's interesting to me how many players want to limit their choices to just barely enough to fill 6 buttons. Imo drown us with powers to choose from. Those that only want a select few can just shorten their hotbar and pick the best ones for them but to say "don't give me a lot of powers because I don't use them all" is to limit everyone to that choice. Many people like myself love having a plethora of options to fiddle with.

 

The problem exists when you actually *need* all 36+ powers to be hot keyed and use them.  When PvPing in another MMO I'm using a 12 button mouse with shift+ and ctrl+ all bound and another 12 powers I still click as they aren't as frequently used.  Its a bit ridiculous.  

 

I'm not worried about a limited number of options the way character creation and the disc system that looks like it was pulled directly from Shadowbane will work.


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"Agelmar is King of the Hypocrites and Ruler of the Kingdom of Hypocrytia"

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Archetypes in crowfall are more focused to a given role than other games classes which can do multipl things. Adding more abilities is either going make archetypes bleed over into each other or creature duplicate abilities. Bad either way.


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It's interesting to me how many players want to limit their choices to just barely enough to fill 6 buttons. Imo drown us with powers to choose from. Those that only want a select few can just shorten their hotbar and pick the best ones for them but to say "don't give me a lot of powers because I don't use them all" is to limit everyone to that choice. Many people like myself love having a plethora of options to fiddle with.

 

Every power added requires development time and money for the associated design, visual effects, animation and other related stuff.

 

What they could do is to add new powers to archetypes once the game is launched and that they've completed all the rest.

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It's interesting to me how many players want to limit their choices to just barely enough to fill 6 buttons. Imo drown us with powers to choose from. Those that only want a select few can just shorten their hotbar and pick the best ones for them but to say "don't give me a lot of powers because I don't use them all" is to limit everyone to that choice. Many people like myself love having a plethora of options to fiddle with.

Its not really about the number of actual abilities. Its about the overall combat system and how it feels. Ability bloat affects everyone as if you have 40 abilities to use then everyone will have to use those 40 or be gimped. More abilities also doesn't inherently mean the combat will be better or more skillful. The fiddling as you say is still there, its in how you build your toon, the choices you make and not only what happens during combat.

 

Bottom line the Dev doesn't want ability bloat and are making action combat which generally coincides with limited slots.

Edited by pang

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I'm for open ended tool bars which can be used to slot both abilities and use-able items, and to keep track of passives. Yeah, we shouldn't have a million redundant combos and abilities, but I'm fine with having over 10. It should also be possible to build your character with to have quite a few powers, OR to specialize in a smaller number of powers which would then have a greater effect. 

 

One character could end up with only 10 abilities on his bar, while another could have 25 + potions, food, grenades, use-able trinkets, scrolls etc...


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I prefer having a set number of abilities on the bar, requiring players to choose which abilities they want access too.. Allows for more unique character customization. Not to mention, having 40+ abilities with 5 that are used regularly and 35 only situationally (ala WoW) is stupid and takes up too much UI space


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TL;DR - having too few available abilities and too many hidden behind combo chains leads to a sparsity of strategic options at any given point in time. This in turn requires the combat model to be calibrated for simpler play styles and greatly reduces the depth of play and the skill ceiling for players.

 

 

I don't think that's accurate.  

 

To steal a page from David Sirlin (one of the game designers that I respect the most), the key to mastering a system isn't just optimizing your character and play style.  The real mastery is in YOMI, which is a japanese word for "reading" -- being able to read into the mind of your opponent and predict his move, ideally before he has even decided what move he will make.  You can design a Level-3 YOMI system in as little as 4 moves.  

 

A master-skill player would know each archetype, promotion and discipline class tree intimately, be able to gauge ALL of his opponent's available options in a moment, and intuit how he (the player behind the keyboard -- not the archetype) is most likely to react to any move or counter.

 

I believe that the model we are using could be the best of both worlds: it gives the breadth of options, but provides enough information to allow a master player will be able to predict their opponent's moves, before they even make them.  

 

I could be wrong, of course...  I guess we'll find out!

 

Todd

ACE

 


J Todd Coleman

ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.

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