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Fulfilling Shadowbane's Legacy and Permadeath


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While Crowfall could do just this in the sense of its gameplay and mechanics, I mean the in-game sword from which Crowfall's predecessor recieved it's name...

 

As stated by Mr. Coleman in another thread

 

Huh.  Let's see if I can pull this thread back on-topic.  

 

Highly doubtful.   but here goes. 

 

...

 

- Originally, "Shadowbane" wasn't a sword.  It was a secret society of heroes fighting evil.  Later we ditched that idea, and made it a blade that was sort of a cross between Excaliber and Stormbringer in our mythology.

 

- the actual sword, "Shadowbane", didn't exist in the game.  We never even made the 3D object.  Our idea was to make it a relic that caused permadeath on everyone who touched it -- you could wield it, and if you killed someone with it, their character was wiped!  BUT if you died while wielding it, YOUR character was deleted.  and the blade would fall to the ground, for the next guy to pick up.  I still think this idea has amazing, untapped griefing potential.


Todd

ACE

 

I, for one, think this item needs to be in Crowfall.

 

I love the item of high risk VS reward, especially in a medium in which players invest so much into their characters.

 

Do you think something this brutal could last in a modern MMO? How about the concept of permadeath in general?

 

Would you entertain the notion of picking up the Shadowbane, given the chance? Would you play an MMO with Permadeath?

 

 

 

p.s. Any dev who states "amazing, untapped griefing potential"... I love you.

Edited by flex

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I'm all for hardcore stuff, but randomly being killed by someone out in the world and finding my character wiped would be fairly upsetting.

 

Stealing peoples gear and anything in their backpack, that stuff can be replaced - but I'm not sure how you can combine consensual pvp with there being a sword that deletes people characters in a world with no other source of permadeath :P

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Would only be something that would be viable/fun for the huge clans. Smaller clans wouldn't have any means to acquire it, and wouldn't have any way to hold it.

Seems like bad news to me.

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  :(

 

What I mean by consensual pvp, is that you've agreed to be PvP flagged when you log in, you know what can and can't happen - be that losing all your gear or whatever. What you haven't agreed to, is having your character deleted.

 

Getting jumped by 5 people out of nowhere, one of them with the character deleting sword when you're out farming, would be fairly brutal.

 

I'm fine with permadeath, but you can't design a game with no permadeath - then throw in a sword that wipes characters. :P

Edited by xaine
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 What some people do not understand is that is that features like permadeath and full loot, make other (more fun) systems impossible - as those things are mutually exclusive. You think that anyone would be willing to invest hundreds of hours in polishing and upgrading a character if permadeath was an option (even a remote one)? Lol no. Permadeath necessarily means that character progression will be almost non-existent and that PvE will be shallow as heck - as those two systems cannot exist together in the same game.

 

For every action, there is a reaction. You cannot think of any action in a vacuum without considering the consequences.

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Permadeath, in a persistent world designed for empire building and land conquer does not work. No one will continue to reinvest countless hours of work over and over. Example, look at what happened in games like SWTOR, as they brought up new servers but did not implement characters migration. People got burnt out having to level their characters from scratch, even if it meant playing with their friends.

 

 

Instead of perma-death, how about character capture. Example, when two factions are at war against each other, there can be a design that allows you to capture enemy toons, which would make them unplayable for 3 days (for example), unless a bounty was paid, or an event completed (like a city raid) to free the captured character(s).

Edited by conspiracy theorist

It is my duty to cleanse this land of the unworthy. It is my goal to make this world burn. Your tainted flesh shall kindle the flames.

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Permadeath, in a persistent world designed for empire building and land conquer does not work. No one will continue to reinvest countless hours of work over and over. Example, look at what happened in games like SWTOR, as they brought up new servers but did not implement characters migration. People got burnt out having to level their characters from scratch, even if it meant playing with their friends.

 

 

I'd have to admit that being an early beta tester for SWTOR was exhausting.  Playing from start-end (wherever that was in the build) multiple times in short order caused major burn out.  I'd hate to see that as a "design" element in a MMO. 

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"Agelmar is King of the Hypocrites and Ruler of the Kingdom of Hypocrytia"

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Instead of perma-death, how about character capture. Example, when two factions are at war against each other, there can be a design that allows you to capture enemy toons, which would make them unplayable for 3 days (for example), unless a bounty was paid, or an event completed (like a city raid) to free the captured character(s).

 

As an alternative to full loot, I really like this actually.

 

Gives death meaning, and also means that there can be deep PvE too.

 

However, having really good end-game PvP, and really good end game PvE - just isn't going to happen at launch. There won't be enough time/resources.

 

Most MMOs these days can barely get one aspect of the game to an average standard, let alone two.

Edited by xaine
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...

 

 

Instead of perma-death, how about character capture. Example, when two factions are at war against each other, there can be a design that allows you to capture enemy toons, which would make them unplayable for 3 days (for example), unless a bounty was paid, or an event completed (like a city raid) to free the captured character(s).

Allowing one player to control another player's characters is a very bad idea.  Not in terms of Role Play - but in terms of the fact that people pay for their games...

 

It could (potentially) work in a Free to Play Game - depending on game mechanics and controls.  But realistically, remember that gamers don't tend to be 'nice' (en masse).

 

Permadeath could also work in certain game mechanics.  Free to Play games.

 

Anywhere the words 'permadeath' and 'griefing' are used together however worries me.  I have played in Permadeath guilds in MMOs.  I like permadeath.  "Griefing" however is a different thing entirely and suggests a game where one player can hurt another player for "LOLs".  Not a good thing at all.

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Altitis......

 

Edit: Posting from my phone kinda sucks, and I am unable to elaborate.

 

There are a couple of things being assumed here. One, that a single character could potentially take another one hostage. No. This would require to be an event of sorts, like a "mini bane". There have to be conditions set, so it would have to be a guild vs. guild event. I mean, this all depends on the actual CF mechanics, of course, but guilds would have to be something to the effect of sworn enemies. Perhaps, this could be a precursor to actual war. By no means should this be available to a 1vs1, although potentially, a single person should be able to rescue the victim, IMO. If there are instances, then the event to rescue the hostage could be an instance. Maybe there is a building in a city that acts like a dungeon or jail of sorts, and all you have to do is go into the city and destroy it, pick the lock, whatever.

 

To those of you who don't know what Altitis is. It is the condition of maxing out your character slots, and then creating some more. In a P2P game, this will be limited, due to having to actually pay for accounts. But there should be no reason for any player to have just a single playable character, and I doubt CF will be the exception. So if your main gets captured, it doesn't mean you aren't able to play. It means you need to get on an alt, rally your troops, and get your character back.... or pay a ransom of some sort.

Edited by conspiracy theorist

It is my duty to cleanse this land of the unworthy. It is my goal to make this world burn. Your tainted flesh shall kindle the flames.

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Any ability that prevents another player from playing the game like abusive and excessive CC or "player capture" will quickly decimate a game's population.  Nothing is less fun then NOT being able to play the game.

 

I played a D&D campaign in which the DM constantly threw vampires at us. The vampires would try to enthrall us, and since it started as a low-fantasy campaign, our completely non-magical party had no way to counteract it if we rolled a bad save. Our characters ended up enthralled a lot. During some sessions, players would sit there for hours doing absolutely nothing as the DM took control of their character and tried to kill the rest of the party.

 

Needless to say, this is not how you retain a player's interest, or continued monetary support.

Edited by txteclipse
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I played a D&D campaign in which the DM constantly threw vampires at us. The vampires would try to enthrall us, and since it started as a low-fantasy campaign, our completely non-magical party had no way to counteract it if we rolled a bad save. Our characters ended up enthralled a lot. During some sessions, players would sit there for hours doing absolutely nothing as the DM took control of their character and tried to kill the rest of the party.

 

Needless to say, this is not how you retain a player's interest, or continued monetary support.

 

There needs to be a "Fail GM" meme.  I had one that would stick so strictly to a prewritten story course, that the equivalent of "invisible walls" blocked anything a player tried to do creatively that happened to stray from it.  Bad GMs suck.  But, I'm too lazy to do it myself, so I can't complain too much, I suppose...

"Food for the crows..."    Nobuo Xa'el

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There needs to be a "Fail GM" meme.  I had one that would stick so strictly to a prewritten story course, that the equivalent of "invisible walls" blocked anything a player tried to do creatively that happened to stray from it.  Bad GMs suck.  But, I'm too lazy to do it myself, so I can't complain too much, I suppose...

 

To this GM's credit, much of the rest of the campaign was fun. I rolled a gimmick character that had maxed out driving and disable device stats, so I could basically glance at a car sideways and it would unlock and start for me. I crashed a lot of vehicles in that game. Typically through doors or bosses. Kick in the door? Psht. Semi in the door.

Edited by txteclipse
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There is actually a model in the database for "Shadowbane". It's not an equipable weapon however, it's just a prop, A giant sword struck into the ground.

 

Actually, there were quite a bit of cool mobile models and props that were either "lost" or never used.

Edited by armegeddon

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I'd have to admit that being an early beta tester for SWTOR was exhausting.  Playing from start-end (wherever that was in the build) multiple times in short order caused major burn out.  I'd hate to see that as a "design" element in a MMO. 

 

You are assuming there is a MMO typical level grind. 

 

Between the "MOBA-ish" archetypes, this comment about grind by Todd C. and this comment about "Time to Fun" by Tully A., I'm wondering how much leveling (eg character development time sink) there will actually be in Crowfall.  If it is a relatively quick process to create, spec, gear, and play a character, with skill being a bigger factor than time-invested-in-PvE-to-make-you-better-in-PvP, then the subject of PermaDeath may actually be a viable one!

Edited by ren

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Honestly losing so much time of char development (months in some games) could make just about every one gquit. Take my loot but the thought of no one really being able to level a toon past 20 min before the inevitable gank pack hits you while leaving the nooby zone just to do it again doesn't sound to nifty. 

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You could make it work. If it was t necessarily hard to get to max level, and upon per made at your gear transports to your vault.

 

It wouldn't be widespread. Most people wouldn't risk using the sword, and there's only 1 in the game world.

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Fugger of Fuggington - Shadowbane

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