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budkin

First Look: Confessor Powers - Official discussion thread

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Yea I'm hoping there's at least one promotion (among confessor, frostweaver, druid) that will avoid the easier targeting systems.

 

Physical ranged will be what it is most important for, I hope they can test it sooner than later.

 

In that case I suppose it can still be fun, but if they go into developing the ranged combat with the mindset that abilities need to be easy to land, I don't think I can have fun. I played ESO, healer first (was ok), then I made a magic based and physical based ranged character and it was so unbelievably simple. Like going to the target range with a scoped rifle and setting the target up at 10m...

 

I like your idea, and it would probably be more practical than what I suggested yesterday (free aim for archer / assisted for stalker  :lol:).

 

Could be cool to see promotions, for ranged archetypes, orienting the style of play more toward either the free aim or the assisted aim path.

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My opinion has not changed......I want what is best for the game and game play.  If it means action combat, bring it on, if it means tab target bring it on, if it means some combination of anything or everything bring it on.

 

I prefer the bolded und​er lined portion of my statement but seriously, I want what is best for gameplay, ping and sync issues between clients as close to action combat as we can get.

Well I would agree on the doing what they need to do to make it work and make it fun. But like others I have preferences and if they do go too far down that spectrum to hard locking and tab target the chances increase of it being a deal breaker. So yeah I would prefer they keep Plan A, but I won't be mad if they go to Plan A 1 or even Plan B, but Plan C ,D and E might have to re-evaluate.

Edited by pang

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We didn't say we were ditching our current design, or that we were changing it.  We are just giving you a heads up that this is an area that has been particularly challenging to get right, and for technical reasons, we might have to revisit the plan if (and ONLY if) we simply can't get it to work in our architecture  We are trying to do something that hasn't been done before -- a server-authoritative MMO architecture with full physics simulation -- and that can make some areas of development extremely challenging.  Especially when you have to keep in mind things like network latency, cheat protection and keeping clients in perfect sync.

...

Not one person on these forums would find it acceptable to ship the game with archetypes that are fundamentally broken.  If you were sitting in the room with us, playing a ranged class, and you knew within moments of playing it that it was fundamentally broken -- just didn't work at all -- this wouldn't be a debate. No one would say "sure, it's broken, but the other targeting options are completely unacceptable, so let's leave it broken."

...

We're still on Plan A, and our intent is to keep working on Plan A until we have exhausted every approach we can think of / reasonably implement. Targeting right now works OK... on our local network.  Once we start testing it externally, with our servers running in a cloud somewhere, we have concerns that it might not work.  If it doesn't, we'll do the best we can to fix it, for as long as we can afford to iterate.  

 

We said from the beginning that we would be open with you, and that includes the ugly parts of development -- when things don't work out as plan, and you have to make tough choices.  There will be times when we have to make compromises due to limited resources or technical limitations -- that's a part of any game development process. 

 

I appreciate this clarification and the continual transparency about the development challenges.

 

Hope everything works out well technically and that you guys take the decisions your team feel are the most appropriate to reach the city of gold.

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What do you think I'm misunderstanding? They said, "If we find it is too difficult to play ranged, we have a few systems we may need to add or augment, like ‘sticky’ targets, ranged assist or some manner of soft locking system." Which is exactly what I said because those things will most likely, if not certainly, make ranged exceptionally easy to play and are not fun.

 

In tera, the sorcerer class has a skill called Void Pulse, you press whatever key it's bound to and off it goes. This used to be a very difficult skill to land on mobile targets because it was very, very slow, but they increased the projectile speed and it became a bit easier. By increasing the speed they were able to maintain the manual aim play of the skill while making it easier instead of using a targeting/locking system. What's even better? Players with half a brain learned to play with it in ways that made up for its downsides. It has a range of 21/22m, I used it most often about 3-8m away from the target because it was possible to make up for its slow speed, by decreasing the distance it has to travel. Before the speed was buffed a common sorcerer combo (mostly for dueling) involved sleeping a target, standing at specific range, casting void pulse, and then casting fireblast (aoe ~12m in front of the sorc) which resulted in both abilities damaging your target at the same time.

 

For physical ranged (bows...) attacks in Crowfall, I would expect the projectiles to move pretty custard fast.

 

"too difficult to play ranged" can be any number of things unrelated to the player trying to use them, and more about the mechanics of the game, which they come right out and mention physics interacting with projectiles in that write up. So the general understanding shouldn't be a logic jump from what was stated to "too difficult for bad players to play".

 

And if you have a long range skill you can only land close up because the unforgiving mechanics, what's the point of the range? If you have to play in melee range because any number of mechanical factors make it so that you're more likely to miss and waste mana than it is to hit, then it defeats the whole purpose of being range.

 

And let's be honest. Tera was fun in many cases, but there were a lot of powers that weren't used, or were so aoe based that aiming wasn't a skill thing because you just had to lay the aoe down. At least my assumption when they keep talking physics and arcs, and expiring skills is that it's not like games we've played before so arguing how something works is a nonstarter. So many people like to argue about something that and use that "bad players with no skill" example, while imagining they are the exceptional players that can use the system without any help. Yet you've never even touched the system to say that.

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I appreciate this clarification and the continual transparency about the development challenges.

 

Hope everything works out well technically and that you guys take the decisions your team feel are the most appropriate to reach the city of gold.

Hey man must have missed the memo. We can't be both nice and appreciative and critical at the same time. Pick a side, knee pads to the left, pitchforks and torches to the right! :P

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Hopefully, this particular situation won't be one of those.  But, even if it isn't, you guys need to get comfortable with the fact that  some compromises will be made at some point, if not on this feature than on another feature that you feel very strongly about.  

 

Compromise always happens, in every game project, ever.

 

and if you think it sucks for you, let me assure you that it sucks much, much worse for us.

 

Todd

ACE

Thanks for the clarification...maybe now the discussion can be about the actual abilities and class instead of targeting. Still, fun discussion :]

 

In Todd, We Trust

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I need to personally test these powers  :P

balance comes from gameplay

 

can I make a mino fessor....I wanna name him Barbque's revenge

Edited by hillbilly

Know me and fear me. My embrace is for all and is patient but sure. The dead can always find you. My hand is everywhere - there is no door I cannot pass, nor guardian who can withstand me.

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I need to personally test these powers :P

balance comes from gameplay

 

can I make a mino fessor....I wanna name him Barbque's revenge

If only there were plans to have us test or a faq that could answer if you can make a mino fessor


 

This game looks like a larger scale version of marvel heroes so far with forts.  - nephiral marts 7 2015

 

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I look forward to the poorly implemented Plan X.4 at release.   :rolleyes:

Is that the one with kittensploding bobheads? I'm in.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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No that's plan W. Plan X I believe is the one where the Dev sends a trained professional to play the game for you.

 

Close. Plan X was a pro gamer, but they aren't hardcore enough so X.4 removes CC and replaces it with HPC, Hardcore Player Controlled.


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"Agelmar is King of the Hypocrites and Ruler of the Kingdom of Hypocrytia"

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I know fairly well how logic works, otherwise I wouldn't be doing the job I do. What are you using here is not logic, at all.

 

You haven't defined anything properly here, your statement has no weight.

And out of courtesy, I'll even prove it without making wall of texts.

 

1. You are implying a higher ceiling for mechanical skills compared to strategic ones;

2. You are implying that mechanical skills should be measured equally to strategic ones, which doesn't make sense if anything because superior strategy could require more players working together (or viceversa). Which means you can't sum potatoes to onions, strategic skills are usually more efficient in large scale fights.

 

Literally speaking, mechanical skills tend to be more limited by lag, stutter, movement freedom, abilities, and game mechanisms in general.

 

Previous games with "high mechanical skills" prove this. A professional CS player will hardly win alone against 5 medium players.

In Darkfall (which is for sure more twitchy than CF will ever be), the very best could hardly win against 4 players with equal abilities.

 

In a Game (of Thrones) where there is supposed to be 100vs100 fights, it hardly matters how powerful a single entity has become.

And, by the way, it's not written anywhere that having more expert players isn't a strategic skill by itself.

It's basic logic that if someone is being obstinate and irrational, than there is no point in continuing the conversation, I'm not about exhausting hours of my day on others oblivion.

 

Beyond that, I certainly didn't document some sort of exterior study, which is just someone else's explanation. But that's not what I meant, even if I did fail to communicate it. Strategy often does benefit from groups, but it's not limited to groups, a strategy can be as simple as one man firing down a cliff at another man who has no projectile weapon.

 

Individually, manual operation should surpass strategy, one on one, but it's a problem when that operational freedom is so great that an obvious strategic advantage is defeated by raw performance. That doesn't mean it takes less skill to be strategic, I pointed out that the game itself needs to have enough complexity in order for strategy to have depth.

 

More operational freedom makes operational talent stronger, more complex gameplay makes strategy stronger, they are very different but their not independent either. The Mechanisms involved could allow a player to jump and strafe and aim so quickly and erratically that many other players are unable to challenge him, they can also limit characters and introduce mechanisms that empower more complex plans and cunning. There's a balancing act to come up with the right combination of both for either to be meaningful or effective, but if your first order optimal strategy is to rely on players with better manual operation to out maneuver many other players, than several practical strategies and advantages are stripped away from everyone else, just because they are different doesn't mean they don't directly impact each other.

 

Anyway, that's the best I can do for now, your challenge wasn't completely rational to begin with.

 

Had already planned on playing Confessor, but the ideas make me really look forward to it from a concept standpoint.

 

From what I'm gathering people want:

 

1. No ranged assist in a game with physics.

2. No meaningful CC in a game where everyone is going to be running around, not standing still.

3. Pure point and fire, with you better be an expert FPS player in a game where 1-2 shots will NOT kill your opponent.

4. All the while having friendly fire in effect.

 

Hahaha... get real people. People would be burning mana and a) missing a lot, B) hitting friendlies a lot or c) have to play in melee range to actually land anything. And then what's the point of playing a range character?

 

There will almost undoubtedly be some kind of system of assistance. You would need to have bullet speed projectiles (which can't be dodged and defeat the purpose of that mechanic) or some. Of course, since I've never played the game unlike so many here apparently. This is all supposition.

I would like to point out that a game with animation locking on attack is going to make you stand still, or often lock you into a predictable movement, so players are jeopardizing their movement every time they attempt an action, and it is an action game, so players would rather have CC which limits their actions rather than pause them completely. Edited by bahamutkaiser

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Thematic Tantrum:

 

This one is a matter of opinion, and I wanted to point it out to the community to see if anyone else coincided.  I understand the Confessors have a religious theme and are self-serving characters.  It is very straightforward to call their accumulative stacks "Sins", since Confessors are specialists in punishing "Sin".  But the "Sin" stack mechanic feels slightly off to me.  Mainly just the fact that the stack is named "Sin".

 

If I attack a player with my primary fireball attack, a "Sin" stack is applied to them.  To me it sounds like it is thanks to me, the Confessor, that they now have "Sin" since they did not have "Sin" until I attacked them.  This gives a negative connotation to the Confessor, making them look like villains directly through mechanics (A narrative no - no for Crowfall I believe).

 

Confessors shouldn't be giving "Sin", more specifically, Confessors shouldn't be applying "Sin" stacks.  Confessors remove "Sin" (And kinda detonate and / or burn your face as a side effect), but they don't give "Sin" to later remove it with the objective to hinder somebody.

 

That is the way I am interpreting the "Sin" stacks.  I have no complaint about the functionality of the mechanic, just the name of the stacks themselves.  My favorite name so far is "Repentance" which gives me personally a more righteous and progressive connotation than "Sin", which sounds more gloomy and self defeating.  The Confessors keep boasting about how they are "helping people", but applying "Sin" sounds more accusative than merciful, even if it is by fire.  As Doc says though, it may just be me.

I found your post very interesting and intuitive. I wonder thematically how you would feel if the flames were exposing the sin the opponent already has? The more flames the more it exposes their sinful nature.

Definitely would like to hear your thoughts.

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There are 2 different kinds of compromises though:

 

a. Cutting off a game feature because it isn't appreciated by the large audience;

b. Cutting off a game feature because it ruins something else, like the number of people supported by the engine during a siege**;

 

I can stand the second, but not the first one. This game has already a good audience and you shouldn't be afraid to push boundaries at this point.

 

This is a great point.  

 

We've said from the beginning that this game isn't for everyone, and that hasn't changed.  We aren't going to change the vision to try and make it appeal to everyone.  We don't want to -- and we don't have the resources, even if we did.

 

Please give us the latitude (and, yes, the trust) to make changes that fall into the 'b' category when necessary -- and not assume that whenever something (inevitably) changes, it is proof of some hidden agenda to turn Crowfall into a WoW clone.

 

You guys placed your trust in us, to build THIS vision.  We take that obligation seriously. You may not agree with every idea or feature.  You may feel EKs are unnecessary / dislike crafting / not like where targeting ends up / whatever.  That's fine; we can't make everyone happy with every decision.  

 

But this is the game that we promised, and this is the game that we're going to build.  

 

You trusted us enough to back us.  Now trust us to make the game. 

 

Todd

ACE


J Todd Coleman

ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.

Follow us on Twitter @CrowfallGame | Like us on Facebook

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No matter how many times you say this, people are still going to misinterpret everything you say. Ignore them and keep making your game; once they have an awesome Crowfall to log into, none of the forum angst will matter.

 

Also, hidden agenda to turn Crowfall into a WoW clone confirmed. Some of us knew it all along.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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Of course we trust you.

 

But because of that we're not only invested in the literal sense, but also emotionally.

We also want this game to be the best it can be.

 

Everyone here understands, that there's no secret cabal, that tries to ruin it for us.

But the same goes the other way round. Just because people critique, doesn't mean that person thinks it's all over already.

Also trust us, that we have the best intentions for the game and not just for ourself. We don't have a hidden agenda either :)

 

 

When people stop posting, and all you see is "OMGZ GREAT!!! CAN'T WAIT TO PLAY!!!" posts... then you can start worrying!

But not at this point!

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Please give us the latitude (and, yes, the trust) to make changes that fall into the 'b' category when necessary..

 

Of course. The statement on aiming did fall into the "a" category though: "If we find it is too difficult to play ranged.. [...]".

That's where the misunderstanding (?) started. Anyway, cheers!

 

P.S. There's no rage in our posts. We're as calm and invested as ever.

If our posts often sound angry, it's probably because each time someone raises a doubt or critique there's a flock of crows trying to silence them.

Edited by Fenris DDevil

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When people stop posting, and all you see is "OMGZ GREAT!!! CAN'T WAIT TO PLAY!!!" posts... then you can start worrying!

 

I won't hold my breath. ;p

 

Todd

ACE


J Todd Coleman

ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.

Follow us on Twitter @CrowfallGame | Like us on Facebook

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