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budkin

First Look: Confessor Powers - Official discussion thread

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All the human archetypes will allow both genders as far as we know, it's just the beast races and some of the fae that are gender locked.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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I would like to point out that a game with animation locking on attack is going to make you stand still, or often lock you into a predictable movement, so players are jeopardizing their movement every time they attempt an action, and it is an action game, so players would rather have CC which limits their actions rather than pause them completely.

 

That's my point. These "hardcore skilled" players talking about unskilled player wants X, are saying they want all the stuff I listed. Which is not feasible 

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That's my point. These "hardcore skilled" players talking about unskilled player wants X, are saying they want all the stuff I listed. Which is not feasible 

 

I'm trying to figure out how magical they think their skill is going to be when they manually aim at a foe and start firing off a combo, and are an immobile target in the process... I mean, are archers gonna run and gun while everyone else has animation locking?, or are they just gonna have escape animations in their attacks? First person to shoot gets a free shot to the face while their locked :)


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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That's my point. These "hardcore skilled" players talking about unskilled player wants X, are saying they want all the stuff I listed. Which is not feasible 

I don't recall having manual aim being a crippling feature... only a feature that is too hard for some people. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I'm trying to figure out how magical they think their skill is going to be when they manually aim at a foe and start firing off a combo, and are an immobile target in the process... I mean, are archers gonna run and gun while everyone else has animation locking?, or are they just gonna have escape animations in their attacks? First person to shoot gets a free shot to the face while their locked :)

 

animation lock usually doesn't mean being rooted in place... just like it says, locked into the animation

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Well, TERA had major animation lock, in fact, for many classes this was their thing. If you wanted to use a certain move or combo, you had to look for ways to speed up your animation. I played a slayer, and they had a spell that shot a flash of light at your foe to stun them. Of course, the animation lock played a part (wasn't too bad, but still, could feel the impact), making the move somewhat unreliable, because PEOPLE MISSED (le gasp). Many people didn't even include it in their rotation. Still, I practiced with the skill, and got much better, till I was landing nearly all my shots on players and it became a reliable CC and DPS boost in my rotation.

 

Sometimes, I'd use the slayer "spin to win move," only this had a very slow animation, requiring careful timing and combo finesse to speed up the animation. Even sped up, this skill had a long windup and a punishing recovery animation. Yet, this move was the bread and butter of the class for a damage modifier and knockdown.

 

TERA still has one of the most acclaimed action combat systems of MMO's on the market. And you know what: IT HAS ANIMATION LOCKS AND MANUAL TARGETING. Crowfall seems to be going in a TERA-esque direction, of course with their own mechanics and different emphasis on certain aspects of combat (for one thing, CF seems to be avoiding the combo formulas and instead heavily emphasizing utility in their abilities which I LOVE).

 

You can even think about it like Super Smash Bros in a way, as that game also has animation locks, and yet you still see people perfectly landing that falcon punch or Jigglypuff snore. I know that because of 2D vs 3D, CF's animation locks will be mechanically different, but the concept is still the same: skillfully and carefully use your abilities, and if you miss or are caught during a vulnerable part of the animation (like the windup or recovery), expect punishment, and work to regain your footing or momentum. Hate to break it to you, but in combatives and martial arts, that's how things work.

Edited by RKNM

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Don't misunderstand me, I'm not concerned at all about animation locking, I'm wondering how it fits with all these manual operation supremacy fantasies. From a Run and Gun standpoint where you have high speed erratic movement targeting precise locations on an opponent in an obstruction heavy environment, several animation locks may as well be bullet time. Just saying.

 

You can rely on those sweet defensive maneuvers and animation breaks, but if their all tied to stamina, that's just exhausting your resources.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Personally, I think I would like some animation locking, as it also implies built in mechanics against things like kiting. If you have to pause for an animation, you're already taking steps to at least gimp nonsense like run-and-gun to begin with, which could aid with melee stickiness and help with immersion. Admit it: you've seen a hunter sprinting while shooting his bow, reloading his arrows, and scratched your head more than once...unless you're lars andersen XD

Edited by RKNM

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Well if your gonna kill in 5 shots, maybe that would work IRL, you'd just have to dodge a thrown weapon at those distances :P

Edited by bahamutkaiser

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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One thing I'm wondering is about certain stuns. For example, no one wants to be unable to move or fight back. It sucks to stand there and take it up the arse while little stars dance around your head. I'm wondering if maybe, instead, stun could be like an animation lock? For example, think of Monster Hunter. A lot of the skill involved in hunting monsters had to do with one simple rule: Don't get hit. If you do, what happens? You get knocked to the ground and had to get your hunter back on their feet, or a flash bomb going off in your face making you unable to see the screen. Maybe stuns could do something like that. Get stunned by a confessor? Maybe it could be a burst of flames in your characters eyes, making your screen a bit hazy? Get stunned by a knight? Maybe they knocked you to the ground with their shield and you need to get back onto your feet. Moral of the story:

 

I don't think stuns should be completely removed. I think people should learn how to dodge and block those stuns.

 

About to be blinded by a flash-bomb? Get away from it. About to get your face smashed by a knight? Back away quickly or raise your own shield. Gonna get tripped by a Guinecean? Jump over him!

 

If you get hit because you stood there and took the hit, you deserve to be stunned.


Can we have a Bard? If not as an Archetype or Promotion, then maybe a Discipline?


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Man I really wish they can nail it with the rangers!! No assist, but make it enjoyable. Definitely easier said than done, but I trust in the Crowfall team :)


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Hey guys, i've just read the confessor article, here's what i think :

 

1 - No soft lock, no aim assist please, just give us FAST projectiles, so avoiding them is hard but not impossible. Hitting and Ducking is incredibly more rewarding without any kind of assist. That's what makes people stay in the game, and motivates them to be better : be rewarded by skill.

 

2 - Immolation : 5 seconds invicibility ? seriously ? Man, it seems way too long to me, and rythm breaking for combat. It also seems like a spell that can be used at any level of skill with the same result, the only difference would be to know the right timing (which won't be that hard to tell after 2 month of metagame)

 

3 - No escape mechanism ? well i get it, confessor is DMG / hard CC oriented, so it would be too much to add an escape mechanism (i dont count the sprint, which doesnt feel cool even if it's useful). But even still, escapes are fun and rewarding if they're hard to pull off. Blinks are nice, or to have the ability to transform into a flaming arrow to be transported where it will land would be incredibly cool.

Edited by SaintClair

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3 - No escape mechanism ? well i get it, confessor is DMG / hard CC oriented, so it would be too much to add an escape mechanism (i dont count the sprint, which doesnt feel cool even if it's useful). But even still, escapes are fun and rewarding if they're hard to pull off. Blinks are nice, or to have the ability to transform into a flaming arrow to be transported where it will land would be incredibly cool.

This:

Her right click power, Zealot Rush, is the mobility portion of the Confessor kit. This power very quickly slides her 10 meters in whatever input is direction provided, WASD-based. This power is fueled by stamina and she can perform it back-to-back in a jam if at full stamina.    

 

Combined With:

In the case of the Confessor, her Immolation is an iFrame power that renders her invulnerable, removes her from physics, removes movement debuffs and lets her run about for five seconds continuing to cast other spells. (We are still playing with duration, look and feel on this one. It’s cool, although the short duration limits its utility dramatically.) 

 

Sounds like plenty of escape.


Luke I am your Uncle... Bob.  What, my sister Padmè never mentioned me?

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I don't recall having manual aim being a crippling feature... only a feature that is too hard for some people. 

It just depends on how the abilities work and what they look like. Things like arrows are certainly going to be a struggle, but magic abilities can compensate. You can see in the concept screens some of them aren't projectiles as much as they are larger areas. They will be easier to aim hopefully.

 

The question isn't whether manual aim is "crippling." The question is, is that the type of game Crowfall wants to be? I think we're pretty sure it won't be a tab targeting kinda deal, but beyond that, it's up in the air AFAIK. I think some aim assist makes sense with regards to lag and this game being a non-FPS. Either that, or you design the skills such that they don't have to be aimed so precisely. 

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It just depends on how the abilities work and what they look like. Things like arrows are certainly going to be a struggle, but magic abilities can compensate. You can see in the concept screens some of them aren't projectiles as much as they are larger areas. They will be easier to aim hopefully.

 

The question isn't whether manual aim is "crippling." The question is, is that the type of game Crowfall wants to be? I think we're pretty sure it won't be a tab targeting kinda deal, but beyond that, it's up in the air AFAIK. I think some aim assist makes sense with regards to lag and this game being a non-FPS. Either that, or you design the skills such that they don't have to be aimed so precisely. 

As long as you can continue aiming your projectiles while the animation lock is in effect (still being able pivot your character and free look the camera even if movement is slowed or disabled), up until the point they actually fire-off they should be able to make manual aiming work.  The biggest obstacle for hitting a target at long range will be the speed of the projectiles (if it's too slow) allowing for an easy dodge on the other end; though I certainly don't want to see all projectiles moving at bullet speeds, I think each ranged class should have a variety of abilities will varying speeds and thus varying degrees of  effectiveness at different ranges. 

 

I agree with your comments about aim assist and that could take several forms:

 

They could make the hit-boxes more generous, though if they make them too big it can feel cheap to be hit by an ability that appeared to miss on your end. 

 

They could make projectiles track targets, this wouldn't be illogical for magic, though I think you would want to avoid this for most physical projectiles.

 

If actually getting/keeping the reticle on the target is the issue, they can do what consoles have done for a long time to help controllers, namely, slow the target reticle and make it kind of sticky when it passes over a valid target. 

 

They could add a charge up mechanic for ranged abilities that increases the projectile speed the longer they charge the ability.  So instead of a 2 second animation and a 5s flight time, you could have a 4s animation (2s animation plus 2s of charge) but only a 3s flight time to go the same distance.  That's 2 more seconds charging the attack but 2 less seconds for your opponent to dodge, and still results in the same 7s from skill activation to maximum range.  This creates a huge level of skill and strategy to playing range because you have to decide:

 

A ) How much time do I have to charge the attack?

B ) How easily can they dodge this attack at this range with zero charge vs full charge?

C )Is there a better attack that has a faster natural speed that can accomplish the task w/o needing a charge?

 

Another note:

Ease of dodging ranged attacks also depends on the awareness of the target.  This seems like it doesn't need stating but, in limited combat testing with small numbers of players it will be fairly easy to track the "One" Confessor and know when you are their target and be able to avoid a good number of their ranged abilities.  But what if there were five confessors, or one-hundred people on screen, or you are engaging someone else in melee and a Confessor puts their sights on you.  How much more effective does range become in heated large scale combat when the focus of their ire has their attention divided?  Lastly,  maybe large orbs of fire are just too easy to see coming; perhaps, taking a note from DnD, fireballs could start out as pea sized orbs of fire that expand over time, so they are hard to see at launch but easier to see as they reach maximum range but pack no less punch in their smaller size. 

Edited by Gilgamer

Luke I am your Uncle... Bob.  What, my sister Padmè never mentioned me?

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I don't like that the Confessor is a range attacker. My idea of a Confessor is someone who is up and close proclaiming your sins in your ear torturing you with her powers to submit. For a holy zealot warrior I would think they would want to be up and close where she can brand you for all your sins. You don't break someone from far away....you break them up close so it is personal. So she should have some kind of branding attack and subdue stuff like stuns and something that does a bunch of pain. Maybe some big power that you actually break a persons will and you have confessed. She might have some kind of ongoing ticker stack that goes up and down showing how many people she has broken and caused to confess. Just a thought.

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The archetype role symbol for the confessor is Ranged Magical DPS, so it's clear that she's intended to be a ranged caster as her core role. With that said, it would certainly be possible for one of her promotion options to add some short-range capabilities to make her somewhat of a hybrid.

 

The Herald of Xotli was an extremely fun class in Conan which was built as a melee-range caster. A similar design as a Confessor promotion option (not the base archetype) could be both effective and engaging.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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