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budkin

First Look: Confessor Powers - Official discussion thread

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I think we're generalizing two things here.

 

1. The specific numbers that ACE is currently using

2. The concerns over those specific numbers ACE is currently using

 

People shouldn't give up on Crowfall because of math in Pre-Pre-alpha.  However, when we are given specific numbers, responding with specific concerns is exactly what everyone should expect.  It's the whole point!

 

Martyr isn't a word that can be applied to this thread.  A little skittish, sure... but people are anxious to see how things go!

Just calling it like I see it. Yes there have been posts that lean into the martyr territory. "OMG we can't give feedback just shut the forums down because some disagreed with our views!!!".   

 

Saying, don't get too caught up into the details and specifics atm, certainly shouldn't be cause to act like ones being told to shut up and go away. No need to get so defensive every time someone so much as suggests that one takes a longer view of things.

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I don't like auto-hit stuff if the idea is to allow terrain, etc to block you from the target. If you want to keep it realistic, then you can....

 

1. Allow range to impact the speed of the cast (the closer you are, the faster you cast). Obviously keep enough range to keep it honest.

2. Make very long range stuff more AOE based, perhaps with a stack limit if some power would be op'd.

 

I don't want to see an /assist feature in the game....ever, and sticky targeting is the same, pretty much, as allowing something to auto hit.  There are trade offs to ranged attacks, and they are generally related to time to cast, accuracy, and area of effect.  If you are "keeping it real" then those are some downsides that have to come into play while staying true to a commitment for skilled gameplay that doesn't allow /assist /sticktargets /autohits. 

Well I think we need clarification first as to what they mean by aim assist. In my experience auto-hit and aim assist are separate things. Aim assist simply helps the projectile, it doesn't guarantee a hit as there is still dodging, blocking, stat based resists etc.

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Just calling it like I see it. Yes there have been posts that lean into the martyr territory. "OMG we can't give feedback just shut the forums down because some disagreed with our views!!!".   

 

Saying, don't get too caught up into the details and specifics atm, certainly shouldn't be cause to act like ones being told to shut up and go away. No need to get so defensive every time someone so much as suggests that one takes a longer view of things.

 

You sound like those guys that say

 

"Don't worry, it's only beta"

 

Because we all know, there will be a magic patch that fixes all issues right before release.

No issues or inbalances were ever carried over to launch.

So it's a total waste of time to talk about it and all we should do atm is tell them how awesome of a job they're doing.

OMGz so great, I can't wait!

Edited by freeze

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You sound like those guys that say

 

"Don't worry, it's only beta"

 

Because we all know, there will be a magic patch that fixes all issues right before release.

No issues or inbalances were ever carried over to launch.

So it's a total waste of time to talk about it and all we should do atm is tell them how awesome of a job they're doing.

OMGz so great, I can't wait!

Nope, never thought or said any such things. Generalize elsewhere. 

 

I guess I'm just more patient than some and understand there's a process and time and a place for various forms of feedback.

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And I respectfully disagree.

 

I can respect that. On one hand I think it's fair to say that nobody likes control being taken away from their character for such a long amount of time.


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I can respect that. On one hand I think it's fair to say that nobody likes control being taken away from their character for such a long amount of time.

and like I tried to point out earlier we need to think larger scale when thinking about how these abilities will work. in 1v1 and small scale PvP yeah longer duration CCs and invulnerabilities might be bad. But in larger scale combat it might work better. Pretty sure the game is being made with larger scale and team based PvP in mind, so yeah saying longer durations are outright bad is a bit premature (and vague) when we haven't been able to get hands on yet.

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Wow. The confessor sounds pretty strong. I like that you guys wanted to go with glass cannon on this one, makes it really fun to play but also cleat counter play for other archetypes.

 

Can't wait till testing!!

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Another great update. 2/3 of the combat test archetypes seem to be ready for testing. Does this mean that next week we'll see the centaur? Maybe a week or two after that the combat milestone testing will begin with the Alpha 1 players. I can't wait!

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And I would like to point out that keeping our mouths shut about our concerns will do no one any good. My statements are feedback to the people that matter. My opinion is, large scale or small, 5 seconds of invuln is a bad idea and will stay that way through testing. I'm not alone in this, and I'm not uninformed in this.

 

I am, on the other hand, leaving this thread until a dev returns because I am absolutely sick of unproductive counter-"arguments" from people that don't matter.

Edited by bairloch

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You sound like those guys that say

 

"Don't worry, it's only beta"

 

Because we all know, there will be a magic patch that fixes all issues right before release.

No issues or inbalances were ever carried over to launch.

So it's a total waste of time to talk about it and all we should do atm is tell them how awesome of a job they're doing.

OMGz so great, I can't wait!

Are there magic patches that fix broken systems... No not really.

 

But people aren't complaining about the system, they're complaining about balance and numbers which we both know change a lot.

 

That's why saying "Xsec ability is bad" doesn't help much because X will change 100 times before launch... What you can say is "Excessive CC is good/bad because... Examples... This is how I would rather see it work.. I like this other games system because..." etc etc

Edited by Ziz

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And I would like to point out that keeping our mouths shut about our concerns will do no one any good. My statements are feedback to the people that matter. My opinion is, large scale or small, 5 seconds of invuln is a bad idea and will stay that way through testing. I'm not alone in this, and I'm not uninformed in this.

 

I am, on the other hand, leaving this thread until a dev returns because I am absolutely sick of unproductive counter-"arguments" from people that don't matter.

Thanks for proving my point from before about martyrs and getting defensive. No ones doing what you're accusing them of.

 

You and others gave feedback, I and others gave opinions on that feedback as well as our own feedback. If you somehow think that's telling you to shut up and go away then sorry you just read it completely wrong.

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Less specifics isn't the issue, you know that. Us attacking this isn't even a bad thing, really.

 

Be honest with us. Are these the numbers you're testing? If they are, you just got feedback without even having to wait for alpha. Why is this seen as a bad thing? We've played a LOT of games, if you include the mass of readers who are looking at this. The in-game hours is staggering. Isn't the entire point of having us here and posting these things to get feedback? Well, there you go.

 

If you're not testing those numbers, then, yes, Blair should have used the numbers he's actually testing. Specifics isn't the problem, as long as they're accurate. You want feedback, you got feedback. Why is this bad?

 

It's bad because it's unnecessary feedback at this point. They're using those numbers because they want to test the CC features and obviously need to use some numbers in order to make them function correctly, but they don't care about the specifics at this point. Think of it like the greybox structures. They are ugly, but in the game just to be functional for testing. It also wouldn't be good to get feedback from people saying, "Those buildings look so ugly. We've played a lot of games before and none of the buildings in other games have been that ugly so you should do something about it." The big difference is that the greyboxes are pretty obvious placeholders whereas the specific timings aren't, but the bold text in the announcement, "We are still building this system, so things are liable to change. In fact, they are almost guaranteed to change!" should have been a dead giveaway.


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This. Is. My. Archetype!  :D

 

I love the description of the skills. Now I need to practice my fire song again ... (trust me, feel sorry for my friends' ears ;))

 

Would also love to see some animations of some skills, especially the slapping the book shut thingie!  But I can wait till Alpha.  :P


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I've spent all my time trying to defend against the 'nay-sayers' and no time being excited about the confessor. 

 

I'm really glad that we are going to have a siege related skill.  And love the synergy that all of the skills seem to have.

Edited by Siegnir

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People will argue about numbers based on their certainty of how exactly the game should work until the devs ears bleed.  That's pretty much expected these days, because everyone knows everything about everything in their mind.  5 seconds can't possibly be a good stun time, because my experience with games is clearly all encompassing, rabble rabble.

 

I say, wait until you test it to see how it feels.  Numbers can give you a general feel for what works and what doesn't, but nothing is off-limits until you test it live and see how it feels.

 

And that isn't a "wait til you play it," argument or "It doesn't matter, it's beta" argument, it's just common sense.  No matter how smart you think you are, no matter how much you're certain that your wealth of game playing experience makes you an expert on game balance and design, you'll never know for sure how something feels until you can get it in your hands.

 

And that isn't to say you can't express concerns.  But there's a difference between "These numbers are wrong," and "Wow, those numbers sound a bit high, but I'm curious to see how it plays," or even "I won't believe those numbers work until I see it in action."  Express disbelief, express concern, don't express your perfect knowledge because, fun fact, you don't know everything.

 

Ultimately, isn't it obvious that these posts aren't about balance but rather about giving an idea about the general feel of the archetypes they are building?  It's like if you tried to pitch a movie concept to someone and you start off, "Ok so I want to make a movie about giant mechs fighting, like 50 feet tall and they'll be against aliens--" and they interrupt you with "Well wait, 50 feet?  That seems unrealistic.  I think 40 feet at most would make sense."  "Ok, well that wasn't really a key detail, but anyways the main character will be this young maybe 20 year old pilot--"  "Whoa, stop again, 20 years old?  Shouldn't he at least be old enough to drink before he's driving 40ft robots?"  etc etc etc...If you keep harping on every detail in these "high view" posts, they'll never get to the point of actually telling us the vision.

 

Anyways, just my usual reminder to remember the context.  Feel free to continue gnawing on each other if you so choose :P

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I've spent all my time trying to defend the 'nay-sayers' and no time being excited about the confessor. 

 

I'm really glad that we are going to have a siege related skill.  And love the synergy that all of the skills seem to have.

Will have to hope the balance between the Confessor being a mobile siege tank and having actual siege equipment isn't too far off. If they make that confessor ability to strong against walls then siege equipment will be useless and will just have to bring in a bunch of Confessors instead and will only be able to win if you have a bunch of Confessors.  

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Once againg Blair is a real god here! I always loved the idea of destroying everything, even a 5v1, but being then completly useless because of the recovery time. For me, I have never played this type of playstyle but on the receiving end it was lots of fun to play against! If this comes, or something similar, into the real game; I will have a blast. Unless the Duelist is un-fun *cough*


 

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...the real mistake was that I allowed Blair to list timing (any timing, even the initial default values) in his post.  That leaves you with the impression that we are further long in the development and testing cycle than we are.  

 

It makes the post read like "here is the Confessor's final powers list!" and that's not true.  Even with a caveat at the beginning of every post, it's impossible to resist the temptation to play the game in your head and pick the design apart.

 

Where we really are: Confessor powers are entered, and you can log into the game and kick off those powers.  And when you do, things happen!  Hooray!  That's is great, especially when you consider that you can't do that with Legionnaire yet.

 

I'm happy for the feedback, and I will make sure Blair jumps onto the thread to read it, I just don't want you to walk away with incorrect assumptions based on poor information.  Next time, I'll make sure we provide less specifics, especially when those specifics aren't helpful, anyway.

 

Todd

ACE

Any person with any form of normal reading comprehension knew what Blair meant.

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Just calling it like I see it. Yes there have been posts that lean into the martyr territory. "OMG we can't give feedback just shut the forums down because some disagreed with our views!!!".   

 

Wow... you missed the point entirely, let me underline it for you:       V5ouk0O.png

Edited by Fenris DDevil

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