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budkin

First Look: Confessor Powers - Official discussion thread

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Will have to hope the balance between the Confessor being a mobile siege tank and having actual siege equipment isn't too far off. If they make that confessor ability to strong against walls then siege equipment will be useless and will just have to bring in a bunch of Confessors instead and will only be able to win if you have a bunch of Confessors.  

 

I'm hoping that character siege abilities are better against certain types of defenses.  So for example the meteor will be really strong against wood walls but not great against stone walls or metal plating.

 

But I totally agree, character siege mechanics < actual siege weapons.


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We’re still experimenting with targeting. If we find it is too difficult to play ranged, we have a few systems we may need to add or augment, like ‘sticky’ targets, ranged assist or some manner of soft locking system. We aren’t quite sure what the right mix will be yet, but we feel comfortable that we’ll eventually find a solution that works well.

 

It seems to me that these are all solutions that should hopefully be considered "last ditch" effort to make them playable. I would suggest things like: Increasing missile velocity, increasing damage, increasing area of effect, damage scaling based on flight time (either higher damage the longer it flies or higher damage the less time it flies). There are all sorts of possibilities without locking some target based on aim point that makes much more sense.

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It seems to me that these are all solutions that should hopefully be considered "last ditch" effort to make them playable. I would suggest things like: Increasing missile velocity, increasing damage, increasing area of effect, damage scaling based on flight time (either higher damage the longer it flies or higher damage the less time it flies). There are all sorts of possibilities without locking some target based on aim point that makes much more sense.

IF its even needed in the first place. But yeah I agree they should try and likely will be open to lots of things to try and not just the few things they listed as an example to try.

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Less specifics isn't the issue, you know that. Us attacking this isn't even a bad thing, really.

 

Be honest with us. Are these the numbers you're testing? If they are, you just got feedback without even having to wait for alpha. Why is this seen as a bad thing? We've played a LOT of games, if you include the mass of readers who are looking at this. The in-game hours is staggering. Isn't the entire point of having us here and posting these things to get feedback? Well, there you go.

 

If you're not testing those numbers, then, yes, Blair should have used the numbers he's actually testing. Specifics isn't the problem, as long as they're accurate. You want feedback, you got feedback. Why is this bad?

I'm sure the devs have played a LOT of games too, and developed quite a few to boot. How something looks on paper can be very different than how it works in practice. If you want to give feedback on it, go for it, but feedback from actually using the abilities and seeing how they perform will be a lot more valuable.

 

What I don't like seeing is the rants and snide remarks that accompany some of the feedback. There's no need for that. 

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So I just noticed but the UI example has "Indulgence" as the last skill on the tray and the text lists "Fervor" as the final skill.  

Yeah maybe they changed the name of the skill and didn't update the UI pic? Fervor sounds better IMO for what the ability does.

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Yeah maybe they changed the name of the skill and didn't update the UI pic? Fervor sounds better IMO for what the ability does.

 

Correct on both counts.

 

Todd

ACE


J Todd Coleman

ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.

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Very interesting stuff, unlike many of the other complaints, I more have questions about some technical things.

 

I've pretty much always supported assisted targeting, this is an melee action game, manual aiming doesn't fit well with melee fighters who have various hit geometry and zones in a third person action game. With the quality of movement and target behaviors, projectile targeting can range from being ridiculously unreliable vs a swift opponent and incredibly easy vs a cluster of foes. And I don't appreciate projectiles which are tuned too strong or too fast in order to compensate for target difficulty, they should have the same readability of melee attacks, if not more readability and less damage in exchange for reach and the strategic safety it grants.

 

I honestly don't know where the fantasy of manual targeting came from anyway, this game has explored Wildstar ground telegraphs to Tera action, I'm pretty sure none of ACEs examples referenced manual aiming, ever?

 

There is a huge variety of targeting options with different levels of difficulty between tab targeting and manual aiming. I personally suggest the Fire Control System (FCS) from Armored Core. Given the amount of movement referenced so far, it's more and more appropriate.

 

That brings me to my first uncertainty about the information. I don't really see any reference to the way projectile arc and friendly fire will operate. Both of Confessor primary combos appear to be frontal blasts, only the meteor shows an apparent ability to be launch over an ally, and they even reference confessors need to be protected... So how will these abilities operate over an allie? Will there be a point blank dead zone? Or just a completely lack of accommodation for friendly fire avoidance?

 

It seems to me like most of Confessors attacks should launch over allies, with explosive area attacks, it should be easy to locate targets. For a manual targeting projectile, it seems you'd need arched targeting lines to work over allies and account for 3D pitch over allies and down cliffs.

 

My other misunderstanding is about the distances referenced? Are we using meters in exchange for feet? 2 meters is greater than the average humans height, maybe 1 meter for a Guinecean, a 10 meter dash is over 30 feet... A 20 meter fire wave is over 60 feet... I know your using game meters, but they're not very good at communicating distance, you might want to speak our language, your based in Texas, please use feet, and use a rough estimate of real proportions, not artificial in game measurements with no reference point, unless it really is 20 meters, wow :P

 

Personally I feel the level of mobility on confessor will need to come down later, I'd rather that blocking and dashing be a part of every action pool, and just be ineffective on non defensive archetypes like Confessor. For a glass cannon, the primary deterrent and defense feels like it should be a lot of damage and easy to land hit zones. but it's still early to distinguish confessor from Frostweaver, who feels like the mage that owns acrobatics and CC.

 

As for the CC durations, sounds like it needs work, the build up snare (what is 50% snare, do you mean slow?) Sounds like good avoidance and blocking would prevent sin from being applied. I think Confessors detonation stun and snares should have an effective indicator for defensive actions like block and dodge to be used to avoid damage even if it is a debuff consumption. Like a flame sprouting from beneath you that can be juked if you dodge accurately, not an instant unavoidable application.

 

As for describing specific quantities or distances. I think it's okay to use figures, but a before hand explanation isn't adequate at pointing out uncertainty, the figures themselves can be listed like, "around 3 seconds", or you can use vague terms like long range, short stun, long slow, and "maybe 20 feet".

 

I don't mind vagaries, but it can avoid some reactions.

 

Anyway, hope my input was useful :]

Edited by bahamutkaiser

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"If we find it is too difficult to play ranged, we have a few systems we may need to add or augment, like ‘sticky’ targets, ranged assist or some manner of soft locking system."

 

Well, I've lost a ton of interest since you guys are even considering this. What a road to go down, I mean, hey these random terrible players can't land 100% of their skills, better just make the game auto-aim at this point. I'm being a little crazy, but my hopes have been crushed.

 

Since you are using Tera as a base for the combat, why not follow Tera's sorcerer skill void pulse? I'm struggling to find a decent video of Void Pulse from a good point of view, but I'm looking. Essentially you whatever keybind you have void pulse set to and off goes the skill. Also, you can avoid soft-locking/aim assists for magic based characters by relying more on AoE similar to Tera's fireblast.

 

I'm not sure who said ESO had nice targeting, but I disagree. It was IMPOSSIBLE to miss any ranged skills in that game. I always told people to imagine a little puppy with the hitbox of a elephant, ESO is worse than that.

 

This does make me wonder a bit about animation/attack speed and whether or not it will be a stat that can be changed via gear/potions/whatever else.

 

Sad, the information I was waiting for the most has pushed me away.


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Thanks for the various levels of feedback. The specific durations of powers/states I'm less concerned about at this stage, since those things either:

have a hard counter (don't like being snared? make sure your team has an archetype or discipline who can counter it!),

will change as time progresses, and lastly

there is information that we haven't realeased yet. We play these characters everyday and just assume everyone knows the confessor is squisher, less mobile, and has less health in the latest tests, so needs that 5 second invuln every so often. Snare also means movement speed reduction in our terminology.

 

As for ranged there tends to be a spectrum:

manual aim -> aim assist -> soft targetting -> hard targetting

 

There are plenty of nuances we all know from playing games. (for example tab targetting is a child of hard targetting) 

We want to fall in the spectrum that enables our ranged to feel good. (Missing multiple 3 second charged meteor shots is one of those FFS moments but it is probably ok for the first test) In Crowfall you might have different goals at times other than just "kill other player", if you are shooting at a wall and want to blast a hole in the wall, you probably want manual aim so it doesnt try and shoot at the guy standing above or below the hole you have started in the wall. It could really suck if you were about to knock a wall down and your meteor veered to the left because a player was coming from that direction. (If that player had jumped in front of the projectile and got hit by it, that is different) It might just end up that some powers stay with maunal aim for the purpose of siege warfare and are more unweildy if used against players. (more testing will tell us)

 

How far we shift in the targetting spectrum will be more urgent topic when we start on the Ranger, since they will rely even more than the Confessor on their projectile attacks.


Thomas Blair
ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.
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Snare also means movement speed reduction in our terminolgoy.

 

SB terminology then?

 

stun = unable to move and use abilities

root =  rooted in place but able to use abilities

snare = slowed

powerblocked = you can move but not use abilities

 

and maybe more, we didn't have in SB :)

 

 

How far we shift in the targetting spectrum will be more urgent topic when we start on the Ranger, since they will rely even more than the Confessor on their projectile attacks.

 

Don't go down that road too hastily pls.

Exhaust other options first. Projectile speed, projectile size, cast timers and so on.

Don't aim for the lowest common denominator!

Edited by freeze

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I honestly don't know where the fantasy of manual targeting came from anyway, this game has explored Wildstar ground telegraphs to Tera action, I'm pretty sure none of ACEs examples referenced manual aiming, ever?

 

There is a huge variety of targeting options with different levels of difficulty between tab targeting and manual aiming. I personally suggest the Fire Control System (FCS) from Armored Core. Given the amount of movement referenced so far, it's more and more appropriate.

 

I agree. I don't recall unassisted ranged targeting being some selling point of the game, and so I don't understand this "Welp I'm quitting a game that isn't even out yet" feedback. Maybe people just feel entitled to have the game their way because of the kickstarter or something, IDK. 

 

For me personally, I have some nerve damage in one of my hands now, meaning my leetskillz aren't what they used to be. So I welcome something in between manual and tab targeting. 

 

Also shout out to Armored Core!


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It might just end up that some powers stay with maunal aim for the purpose of siege warfare and are more unweildy if used against players. (more testing will tell us)

I like that kind of variety. Slow, fast, large projectile, small projectile, weak, strong, veer, no veer. Especially with our physics. Could have a slow, big, high damage, moving something. Hit it with other projectiles and make it move. If you get with it then its the old "you're a bad player" :)

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I like that kind of variety. Slow, fast, large projectile, small projectile, weak, strong, veer, no veer. Especially with our physics. Could have a slow, big, high damage, moving something. Hit it with other projectiles and make it move. If you get with it then its the old "you're a bad player" :)

If meteor is slow enough i wonder if a knight would be able to grab it with chain pull? or maybe he grabs the caster or enemy with chain pull in the path of the fireball to take the hit. Physics is going to open up so many crazy scenarios IMO.

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have a hard counter (don't like being snared? make sure your team has an archetype or discipline who can counter it!)

 

Your post was great. Thank you for taking the time to make it. I think most people appreciate that these things aren't the final product and are just for testing and that you guys haven't put an enormous amount of time into the specifics. I just have a bad taste due to the likes of SB - snares were ridiculous in that game and stuns were either completely overpowered (especially against bad/new players) or were shrugged off or completely countered (pre-stunning, insta dispels etc) which resulted in highly anti-fun polar opposites within the same mechanic.

 

This one line (above) was a bit funny though - why not have 10 minute duration snares! Surely you just need to bring the hard counter!?

:rolleyes:

 

No one likes being stunned for 15 seconds in Shadowbane, even if there are multiple counter-avenues. No one likes being constantly perma snared so much so that being in a largescale engagement means running at 50% of your speed most of the time. Etc. I think the point some people, including myself, were trying to make was that we'd like CC to be less spray and pray and more strategic & timing oriented. 15 second 50% (potentially) AoE snares probably aren't those things! Long duration and easily applicable (eg AoE) makes stacking roles such as offensive support a poor idea and makes the difference between having the support/counter and not having it just ridiculous, such as the meta developed in Shadowbane with priests due to the power of their dispel and their stun. Shorter durations make for higher knife edge moments, allow superior strategy/spec decisions to be made and result in less complete surrender by lower skilled or new players that are just being stunlocked or permasnared, etc.

 

In any case, thank you for responding. Very excited to see things in play!

Edited by taroskin

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I agree. I don't recall unassisted ranged targeting being some selling point of the game, and so I don't understand this "Welp I'm quitting a game that isn't even out yet" feedback. Maybe people just feel entitled to have the game their way because of the kickstarter or something, IDK.

 

For me personally, I have some nerve damage in one of my hands now, meaning my leetskillz aren't what they used to be. So I welcome something in between manual and tab targeting.

 

Also shout out to Armored Core!

I understand players disappointment with a game not delivering on interest expected, we have all spent money on the game if we are on the forum, and we did so hoping the informed game would be something we like.

 

Personally, my biggest disappointment is that Fae won't Fly, even though she's one of the most depicted archetypes, nearly always with wings. I feel cheated, that was my second intrigue for this game.

 

But the only thing that implicated manual aim was the mention of a reticule system which was discussed for a need to work with targeting elevations. They also referenced hardcore PvP, but hardcore doesn't require manual aiming, their primary reference to hardcore actually applies to consequences and a reliance on player economy. But people see what they want to see, maybe I'm wrong too?

 

I just don't see how a game that started with imitating Wildstar combat than taking inspiration from Tera suddenly seems like it's going to be Chivalryfall... These shooter elitist are misleading themselves.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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No one likes being stunned for 15 seconds in Shadowbane, even if there are multiple counter-avenues. No one likes being constantly perma snared so much so that being in a largescale engagement means running at 50% of your speed most of the time. Etc. I think the point some people, including myself, were trying to make was that we'd like CC to be less spray and pray and more strategic & timing oriented. 15 second 50% (potentially) AoE snares probably aren't those things! 

 

In any case, thank you for responding. Very excited to see things in play!

 

Landing 5 fireballs on one target before the debuff timer counts down isn't pray and spray.  Also they said the AoE is 1-2 people large (i.e. it's not an AoE snare).


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If meteor is slow enough i wonder if a knight would be able to grab it with chain pull? or maybe he grabs the caster or enemy with chain pull in the path of the fireball to take the hit. Physics is going to open up so many crazy scenarios IMO.

I was actually thinking that if projectiles have substance and a slow large projectile is dropped on you, maybe you can attack it directly. I'm picturing a Templar jumping in the air and bisecting a meteor like Cloud Strife, "I defy thee!"

 

Also smaller projectiles could be swept away by wind blasts or actual melee attacks?


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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This was a beautiful read and it was good to see him talk about difficulty to land ranged abilities. 

To know they have thought about this and have back up plans to make it fluent if it isn't is great to hear.

 

The way everything is being explained about the animation of abilities like pages being ripped from a book and the book being shut etc just shows me they wan't to make a beautiful game. 

 

The abilities all sounds really fun and as it says she has limited escape kit so for all that destructive power there is a counter :).


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"Our primary concern with playability right now is targeting. How hard will it be to hit a (player) target with her powers? I know it’s shocking, but players don’t like to stand still in PvP. We’re still experimenting with targeting. If we find it is too difficult to play ranged, we have a few systems we may need to add or augment, like ‘sticky’ targets, ranged assist or some manner of soft locking system. We aren’t quite sure what the right mix will be yet, but we feel comfortable that we’ll eventually find a solution that works well."

 

 

I have a suggestion.  Since you have already said that magic ranged attacks have a limited lifetime, make it so they are able to be maneuvered after cast by the player.  There would probably have to be some tweaking as to find the right balance in how much you can make a fireball bend, but it would be better than always missing your magic ranged attack because they are slow and people always being able to move out of the way.

 

Player control over their attacks is far more desirable than some system that does it for you.

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