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budkin

First Look: Confessor Powers - Official discussion thread

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 I think the point some people, including myself, were trying to make was that we'd like CC to be less spray and pray and more strategic & timing oriented.

 

Great post.  going forward, it would be really helpful if you guys would give feedback like this -- tell us what your high level design goal is, rather than getting hung up in the details.

 

Todd

ACE


J Todd Coleman

ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.

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Great post.  going forward, it would be really helpful if you guys would give feedback like this -- tell us what your high level design goal is, rather than getting hung up in the details.

 

Todd

ACE

 

If you make the ranged combat like ESO it is too easy. Seriously a little puppy having the hitbox of a elephant...

 

I love the majority of Tera's combat so I'm hoping you emulate it quite a bit.


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I like the counter-play in Wildstars CC. The ability to minimize crowd controls impact through play choices made by the player. For example;

 

Disarm tosses the players weapon in a random location/distance from the player. A player could continue fighting at 25% dmg, and attempt to survive the duration of the effect, or they could opt to run after it and immediately resume full strength.

 

Another example was the blind debuff. It literally made your screen black except for a very narrow visor view. This made it difficult to react to players near you, but still allowed play versus an outright debuff penalty.

 

I like this concept, that the debuffs are realized in the game. More to the point, I like that their are some potential options to escape from the debuff impact without needing to literally spam your action bar. This helps minimize activatable powers that "break" debuffs. Lets you focus on combat powers that do things, versus cancel other peoples actions (boring).

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Great post - the Confessor sounds like lots and lots of flammable fun!

 

<Begin Speculation>

 

I actually think, that for this phase of testing the durations listed for the powers are pretty good. The phase of testing is the main point for me. Right now, it sounds like the devs want to test how the powers work and interact more than test balance. If that's the case, extended-duration snares, stuns, etc. are exactly the right way to test it. Any player hit with a debuff will do nearly anything they can think of to get out of it - and that's what needs to be tested right now. With 15 seconds of slow, I can find a lot more ways to try to mitigate, break, or ignore the debuff than if I only have a few seconds to work from - and the devs get to review and analyze that data. The same is true for stuns, etc. Making them too long destroys any playability at all, but making them extra-long at this stage means more opportunities to see how other powers interact with the mechanics, and helps identify bugs the break those mechanics more effectively. The same is true of other duration-dependent powers, like the invuln duration, etc. The longer they run, the easier it is to see if they bug out in various situations. Clearly, they can't be too long, or other mechanics get broken, and testing will tell if they're too long even for what the devs are looking for now, but at this moment, the longer durations will give plenty of opportunity to see how they interact with other abilities (iFrame, etc.).

 

Once those mechanics are ironed out, then the devs can focus on gameplay balance, because I agree that in terms of gameplay, a 15 second snare is ridiculous. I think input on the durations, etc. from the player base is good at this stage, since the problem with testing super-powered powers with the players is that, once the purpose for the overpowered abilities is done (i.e. the mechanics issues are resolved), and the powers are scaled back, there is a danger that some people will forget why those powers were so huge to begin with, and cry "nerf" when, in fact, it is just the powers being moved back down to the level they should be for balance.

 

TL/DR: Long durations and exaggerated powers are great for mechanics testing, but bad for final gameplay. Right now, we are in mechanics testing, so I'm fine with it. If things still look silly once the gameplay balance portion of testing kicks in, I'll be right up there with everyone else raising hell.

 

</End Speculation>

 

Also: I totally want an Uncle Bob/Kitten explosive for my EK and victory parties! I now know it can be done, and I want it!


"Ok, here's plan A: First, we hit 'em...and we keep hitting 'em 'till we can't hit 'em no more. Then we kick 'em...and we keep on kicking 'em till we can't kick 'em no more. By that time, I figure our arms are rested, so we hit em......"

 

- Every Dwarf Ever.

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Thinking back to pretty much every PvP game I have played, dating all the way back to UO, I can honestly say, I really hated stun/paralyze whatever else you wanted to call it that made me stand there unable to do anything while other players pounded me into the ground. Very frustrating, very unappealing, and IMO needless.

 

OTOH, UO actually had a nice counter for the paralyze spell, in the form of trapped pouches. An instant get out of "crap here we die again" situation. I am not saying that everyone should run around with 50 trapped pouches in there bags to un-stun themselves, instead, I think we need to re evaluate the nature of the stun/paralyze mechanic.

Think about real life. How many times have you actually been stunned into "absolute inability to do anything". Even being In the army as a Forward Observer, and having artillery round landing 50m from me, I wasn't completely unable to do anything. The encounter was more of a "inability to think clearly". Flash bang grenades don't stun you, they make you unable to process quickly by giving you a loud ringing in your ears.

 

TL:DR

Real Life Stun doesn't make you immobile, it just slows your processing down.

 

SO,

You could implement a stun in a few ways that doesn't leave you completely immobile and unable to react in any way.

 

First option - Stun adds 1-2 second cool down timers to all spells for x amount of time.

2nd option - Stun causes your hotkeys to randomly change positions in the UI for x amount of time.

                 Let me explain this one for a second. How many of you actually look at your hotkeys after say 30 days of playing? Honestly? Probably rarely. You know what does what and in what order to maximize your damage output. Now imagine the chaos that would be caused with your button smashing if they randomly changed positions while under the stun effect. :) down right MEAN!

 

Ill get back to this. Post is getting too long!


Lamdred Al'Ker - OTG

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I would be super duper sad if this game merely aped the CC mechanics of previous games.

 

CC abilities should be manually targeted, and if they are area of effect, they should be area of effect, not enemies within area of effect. That is, they should include friendly fire.

 

Moreover, rather than your standard, deus ex machina Button Press = Effect Occurs, they should be effects that occur within the other mechanics of the game. Rather than some bland "mez" that hits everyone within a radius, whereby they can't do anything for X seconds if they don't resist the effect, just because some schlub hit a button, enacting the ability should create a field (even if it doesn't have physical interactions) in which characters experience the potential effects, according to their resistances and immunities. Entering this field before it dissipates would cause a character to interact with it (obviously, its potency could rapidly diminish after initial inception, according to design). Requiring CC effects to incarnate this way would drive CC effects more toward being the results of player choices and actions, rather than spur-of-the-moment button mashes. We'd see more snares that are the result of actually preparing an area with snares or magical effects, rather than reactionary usage. We'd have concealed spikes, and trip wires, and noxious clouds (that could be escaped), and physical blows to the head (that could be dodged or blocked). We'd have fewer arbitrary "resistances" and more interaction with combat actions and abilities. We'd reward defenders for preparing a field, and attackers for scouting their assaults.

 

All of this would drive more dynamic combat wherein effective CC requires player's skillfully controlling their characters, rather than "skillfully" mashing buttons. It moves CC off the keyboard and into the game world.


I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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SO,

You could implement a stun in a few ways that doesn't leave you completely immobile and unable to react in any way.

 

First option - Stun adds 1-2 second cool down timers to all spells for x amount of time.

2nd option - Stun causes your hotkeys to randomly change positions in the UI for x amount of time.

                 Let me explain this one for a second. How many of you actually look at your hotkeys after say 30 days of playing? Honestly? Probably rarely. You know what does what and in what order to maximize your damage output. Now imagine the chaos that would be caused with your button smashing if they randomly changed positions while under the stun effect. :) down right MEAN!

 

Ill get back to this. Post is getting too long!

Haha the second option sounds freaking awesome. Never heard of a game do that before. Sounds like it could be really interesting and not as frustrating as getting completely stunned and unable to do anything while people beat you to death. The first option also sounds really cool.

 

Personally I think stuns that prevent you from doing anything are fine, but keep them to short time periods as to interrupt spells and abilities. 1, 2 seconds at the most.

Edited by Jon

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Oh man. Confessor ability descriptions are incredible. I can't wait to see those sexy animations in action. 

 

On another note, I do agree with the whole 'less spray and pray cc'. Crowd Control should feel rewarding for those that pull it off, and punishing for those that get stuck in it.

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Great post.  going forward, it would be really helpful if you guys would give feedback like this -- tell us what your high level design goal is, rather than getting hung up in the details.

 

Todd

ACE

Fine, if we need to spell it out. 5 seconds is too long. Why? Because long invuln abilities like this aren't tactical, they're tactic-less. They're godmode. (and, yes, that's hyperbole, word-meisters)

My high level design goal? A game you have to have some knowledge of actual, tactical combat to play. Where studying real-life tactics (not video game tactics) will do a body good. Where it's not knowing the "meta" that's important, but knowing yourself, your team, and your enemy.


I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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Don't use the 'spam a button to get out of jail free card' either. we'll just make a macro to spam that key for us even if you limit the number of presses per second it'll accept.


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Camaraderie ~ Loyalty ~ Honor ~ Maturity ~ Integrity ~ Duty

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I was going to read through everything before replying but I'm stopping at page 4 for now lol

 

Priorities right now, on a scale of 1 to 10. 

 

- Working, functional powers : 10 out of 10

- Timing and balance of powers that we will likely change any number of times between now and launch : 0 out of 10

 

As a reminder, the development process is:

 

1. concept/design

2. implement

3. test functionality

4. fix bugs and issues

5. iterate (i.e. repeat steps 1 through 4) many, many times

6. functionality is finally where we want it to be!

7. balance

 

We're on step #2 of our first iteration through the cycle.  I would suggest that we don't get too hung up on step #7 for powers that might look completely different (or might not even exist) a few months from now.

 

Todd

ACE

  

 

This is the what the "sausage making" part of game design looks like everyone. It doesn't have the same goals that many of you are used to. At this stage the devs are butchering the pig. It's all just prep. This is NOT A GAME...this is the building part.

 

 

To summarise, the feedback isn't saying it's OP or a balance problem. It's saying; please be more conservative with those durations in the future, as these durations are too long, regardless of balance.

And what's that even mean? Where is your context? Are people dying too fast? Too slow? What does conservative even mean? Compared to what?

 

In the update itself they said that some power may be given to OTHER archetypes or even removed completely.

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Again I feel mixed on this.

You had me right up until Flames of Truth.  Just, no non on on on ononononononono.

Instant cast debuff/damage and stun = Inherently unfun to play against.

 

Counter Play, having a skill be just as fun to use as to have it used on you.  So far I've seen the focus be far to much on just making skills feel fun to play, with little to no concern as to how they feel to play against, and that's just bad design in my eyes.

If a skills isn't giving the opponent the skill is used against more options and decisions as a result, then you need to go back an try again.

 

 

For example, debuffing a target in your reticle with instant travel time isn't a bad idea, it's just the instant cast time that's a problem as it makes it essentially unavoidable, and thus has no counter play.  If however there was a short cast time with a unique animation, say red glow in her eye as she snaps her finger Roy Mustang style, and the skill functions like a line shot where you are unable to turn while casting.  Then you can see it coming and avoid it.

 

Better yet if it has friendly fire, then you could set up an instance where you put yourself between the Confessor and one of her allies, only to move out of the way at the last second.  Or if you can somehow reflect it back at the Confessor, you have yet another option.

 

Against we're going into YOMI territory, and you fundamentally have to be able to see things coming to be able to react to them.

Instant cast + instant travel time is a big no no.

 

 

On the topic of CC.  My rule of thumb is that CC, esp hard CC like stuns have to be earned.

If I come at you with a great stonking hammer, and hefty overhead swing that and manage to hit you, and pancake you into the floor which effectively stuns you, then I completely earned that, and you deserve to get stunned as a result.

 

Me looking in your general direction and stunning you instantly is completely unearned.  It requires next to nothing to do, and much more to avoid then it takes to do.  Bad design.

Condemnation on the other hand would be better for a stun, as it has a much more obvious wind up.  If you get hit by it, you deserve to get stunned.

But poorly designed CC can ruin counter play, make for a miserable experience for anybody it's used on, and flush any hopes for YOMI down the toilet.

Be very careful with it!

 

 

PS: On a side not, did anyone else look at this:

conf_fx_darker.jpgAnd think "Fire Bending"!

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If you make the ranged combat like ESO it is too easy. Seriously a little puppy having the hitbox of a elephant...

 

I love the majority of Tera's combat so I'm hoping you emulate it quite a bit.

I hated playing ranged in Tera...

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Can you really blame people? These days it seems like 80-90% of developers have absolutely no clue what they are doing when developing their games.

This is why I'm not registered on their boards. There's a pretty clear track record here.


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Gotta hand it to ACE for constantly bringing reference of archetype backstories into the archetype skills. I checked in on the update a lil late but nonetheless the update made me more hyped for the upcoming test!


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