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oh god pls no

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I think Tera is a good base and if they made a slightly more manual aimed version of Tera's combat we would be in a good place. I'm expecting ESO combat though, only reason I haven't backed more than $5.

They quite expressly have said they are borrowing inspiration from Tera, earlier on they'd mentioned Wildstar and later on DC Universe Online, but they've always used Tera.  ESO was never even alluded to to my knowledge and is beyond not the system they've expressed as wanting and have thus far shown us.

 

ESO was horribly dull with limited room for depth, it was tab target without tab and no hotbars.  They'd only shoot themselves in the foot using ESO's system, which was just a soft target version of TSW.  The fix for hotbar gloat isn't a whole glorious two skills, the fix is a combat system that doesn't need five dozen hotbars of actively used abilities to feel deep, busy, or involved.

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They quite expressly have said they are borrowing inspiration from Tera, earlier on they'd mentioned Wildstar and later on DC Universe Online, but they've always used Tera.  ESO was never even alluded to to my knowledge and is beyond not the system they've expressed as wanting and have thus far shown us.

 

ESO was horribly dull with limited room for depth, it was tab target without tab and no hotbars.  They'd only shoot themselves in the foot using ESO's system, which was just a soft target version of TSW.  The fix for hotbar gloat isn't a whole glorious two skills, the fix is a combat system that doesn't need five dozen hotbars of actively used abilities to feel deep, busy, or involved.

The thing is we have no idea what they are doing really, but the quote in the OP gives me a horrible feeling as to how they will approach the targeting system.


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Thats a pretty big assumption, and it does not consider quite a few core elements of what we do know of Crowfalls combat system at this point.

 

Like you said ESO is basically "tab target" with the exception that you use your reticule to choose the target. However, saying thats the way soft lock works in mmorpgs is quite a narrow view, with very little basis in reality. I mean one example does not make a rule. Anyways I wouldn't even really consider ESO soft lock, but rather full lock. That is however my own personal opinion.

 

ACE has already established quite a few elements that would make it very unlikely that their definition of "soft lock" equals ESOs "full lock" with reticule target choosing. For one, we know they are taking inspiration from Tera. From the examples of the skills they have come with this far it is also becoming clear, as expected out of a action oriented combat system, that they are focusing a lot on mobility. Furthermore animation locking has also been discussed at length.

 

Another one of the more telling elements is of course the physics system. All of these are elements that make the assumption that "soft lock" means tab targeting very unlikely. Because it would basically undermine a lot of the ideas in the already established ideas and systems.

 

My point from the start, which I still stand by, is that Soft lock can be defined in a lot of ways. And Tera, which is the example most people used, basically have soft lock if you look at the mechanics they used to assist in aiming in that game.

Only a few skills, primarily archer skills (and now I guess gunner but I haven't played the class to know), use what you are calling "soft" lock which isn't a lock.  There is not and never was a lock.  It's an aim assist because it makes your reticule bigger than normal.  There are three real types of ranged attacks in Tera and they are free form projectiles, raycast/hitscan/homing to lump together "aim assist" (even though some aren't assisted), and lock-on.  Freeform projectiles and every melee attack are hitbox/collision (as would be various AoE/Ground attacks).  Most of the raycast, hitscan, and homing abilities are aim assist that hit so long as you release the skill with your target in reticule.  Lock on requires you to mouse over and then cast the skill again.

 

Absolutely none of this is soft lock.  I don't know why you seem interested in arguing semantics here, though it is important to define combat systems correctly.  Seriously, I don't even know where you got "full lock" given that that is just tab target.  ESO is soft because movement is free, aiming your character another direction "targets" another entity in range and all skills will hit that target so long as you are in range.  Full lock, or tab target, locks to the chosen target without any consideration of character or camera orientation and all skills hit that target so long as you are in range.  Aim assist is a feature designed to make hitting an enemy you aim at easier and more forgiving to failure to track them via manual input (mouse, trackball, thumbstick, etc).  Tera's fat reticule is aim assist.  Action combat, at least in this context, means that your skills go off where you aim them and you hit or miss based on your own capacity to aim them correctly.  This is Tera's combat in general, if you don't aim, you don't hit, with or without a fat reticule.  They've expressly pointed towards such a system as their intended goal, no assumptions here at all.

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Another problem is map design. An aiming system like in Chivalry really lends itself to a map with a lot of variation in elevation. The maps are small, and packed with pretty big variations, that run through the maps.

Edited by Zomnivore

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The thing is we have no idea what they are doing really, but the quote in the OP gives me a horrible feeling as to how they will approach the targeting system.

But we know what they want, and they want a system akin to Tera: You must aim your skills and if you miss it's cuz you missed, not any RNG dodge mechanic or some other computer algorithm.  We'll have to see what works during initial testing, but this sky is falling reaction to them dare saying they might need to implement some kind of aim assist feature won't suddenly make everyone epic archers.  It's certainly an easier class to play, but Archer in Tera is a very hard class to be good with, and its little bit of aim assist via the fat reticule is perfect.  Without it, the class would be entirely unplayable for many players given how the system otherwise works.

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But we know what they want, and they want a system akin to Tera: You must aim your skills and if you miss it's cuz you missed, not any RNG dodge mechanic or some other computer algorithm.  We'll have to see what works during initial testing, but this sky is falling reaction to them dare saying they might need to implement some kind of aim assist feature won't suddenly make everyone epic archers.  It's certainly an easier class to play, but Archer in Tera is a very hard class to be good with, and its little bit of aim assist via the fat reticule is perfect.  Without it, the class would be entirely unplayable for many players given how the system otherwise works.

Hey, there's a chance they won't abfhjsbhjasbdhjabdasbdhasjbdhjasd it up, but can you really have faith in game developers in this day and age not to?

Edited by Sciocco

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Only a few skills, primarily archer skills (and now I guess gunner but I haven't played the class to know), use what you are calling "soft" lock which isn't a lock.  There is not and never was a lock.  It's an aim assist because it makes your reticule bigger than normal.  There are three real types of ranged attacks in Tera and they are free form projectiles, raycast/hitscan/homing to lump together "aim assist" (even though some aren't assisted), and lock-on.  Freeform projectiles and every melee attack are hitbox/collision (as would be various AoE/Ground attacks).  Most of the raycast, hitscan, and homing abilities are aim assist that hit so long as you release the skill with your target in reticule.  Lock on requires you to mouse over and then cast the skill again.

 

Absolutely none of this is soft lock.  I don't know why you seem interested in arguing semantics here, though it is important to define combat systems correctly.  Seriously, I don't even know where you got "full lock" given that that is just tab target.  ESO is soft because movement is free, aiming your character another direction "targets" another entity in range and all skills will hit that target so long as you are in range.  Full lock, or tab target, locks to the chosen target without any consideration of character or camera orientation and all skills hit that target so long as you are in range.  Aim assist is a feature designed to make hitting an enemy you aim at easier and more forgiving to failure to track them via manual input (mouse, trackball, thumbstick, etc).  Tera's fat reticule is aim assist.  Action combat, at least in this context, means that your skills go off where you aim them and you hit or miss based on your own capacity to aim them correctly.  This is Tera's combat in general, if you don't aim, you don't hit, with or without a fat reticule.  They've expressly pointed towards such a system as their intended goal, no assumptions here at all.

 

It's hard not to argue semantics when you keep arguing in absolutes. Just saying. Anyways I will give you the ESO one, but I did specify that me calling ESO "Full lock" was just my personal opinion of how the system in itself tries to give you an illusion of a action combat system without actually being one. Anyways, not the best choice of words and I can see how that could be confusing.

 

But I still don't agree that the idea that aim assist and soft lock are two different entities and yes that might come of as arguing semantics, but I think it's the only reason this discussion started in the first place. Anyways on to the point.

 

As I tried to explain to you earlier soft lock in itself is basically a way to make the effective reticule bigger. Sure you could argue that soft lock works slightly different in ESO, but both you and me seem to agree that ESO is pretty much as close to tab target you can get, while using the reticule to target. Which means their method would be harder to apply to an action oriented combat system. In other words the concept of a "soft lock" would change between a tab target combat system and an reticule based action oriented combat system. 

 

To me the assumption that seems the most damaging within this discussion is the idea that the word "lock" in itself indicates a tab target system. Cause it really doesn't. As I have tried to explain earlier. The idea of a "soft lock" is actually mostly being used by first person shooters, and is mostly being used to give the players a bigger effective reticule without them actually being made aware of said fact. 

 

So I guess my point, if you get to the absolute core of it, is that Soft lock does not equal tab target. And I don't think this discussion really can get anywhere until people admit to that fact. 


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I see the possibility of true shooting combat as another feather in the cap for Crowfall (a really awesome feather) but its not a deal breaker for me.  

 

Why not have some abilities tab/soft/whatever and some (higher damage, risk/reward) strictly aimed?

Edited by chersk

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I see the possibility of true shooting combat as another feather in the cap for Crowfall (a really awesome feather) but its not a deal breaker for me.  

 

Why not have some abilities tab/soft/whatever and some (higher damage, risk/reward) strictly aimed?

I really like that idea.  The difference between, say, a magical missile type (assisted aim) spell and a fireball (aimed) spell.  The first can be mitigated through cover, resistances, and abilities/buffs.  The second, more powerful attack, can be mitigated but also must be aimed and hit the target.

 

I've seen too many pure aim games that sounded awesome on paper that ended up terrible.  DFUW is one example, although it was mostly the other designs/lack of dev on that game that did it in as opposed to the combat itself.

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I'm kind of hoping that it for instance may not be that hard to land a fireball, but if your opponent executes a side-roll out of the way before the fireball lands that it will miss, or you might be able to use some form of active block or counter to mitigate a portion of the damage.

 

In other words the skill in the hit/miss calculation is less heavily dependent on the skill of the player aiming, and more heavily dependent on the skill of the player dodging.

 

This allows more skill based play where an excellent player can really shine without creating this feeling among older (in RL years) players, players with slower connections, etc. that they might as well not even be playing because all their attacks are going to miss. They will get roflstommped by someone who is really good but still have fun competing against players their own skill level.

 

Then if you get some kind of system that allows greater skilled players to advance to campaigns unavailable to lower skilled players AND GIVE THOSE CAMPAIGNS GREATER REWARDS SO THEY WILL WANT TO DO SO everyone will have fun.

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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