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oh god pls no

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I highly doubt many do not want "skill" to matter, problem is that we probably all have a different view of what "skill" is. You called out WoW & GW2, but unless you have proof of being "the best" in both, I doubt you have top end skill in either.

 

Yes people will have different views of what skill is, and those that want player skill to matter will go into testing, dominate the others, and make sure their voice is heard about what is actually skillful and what isn't. 

 

People do not like accepting that they aren't good at something, so generally they only advocate for the level of skill that they can personally thrive in.  I'd rather advocate for what gets them the most dedicated pvpers while also making sure player skill definitely matters. 

 

 

"In deciding what we want combat to "look and feel like," we are drawing a lot of our inspiration from other recent mmos. We love the idea of action-combat - but we have to make sure the game doesn't get too "twitchy" (I.E. require lightning fast reflexes or too much button-mashing)"....wildstar/tera....yadda yadda.

 

Considering the games they are drawing inspiration from and what they've said about how physics and abilities might work, I'm doubting it will stray too far into the upper ceiling of manual "skill" that some may want. Not that having such skills won't help and by default give some an advantage, CF doesn't seem to be going for a super esport design with the individual's skill to override that of teamwork and strategy over periods of time.

 

As far as gaming skill goes, you have games that require tremendous amounts of skill, then you have mmorpgs that generally require much less skill (like realistically not even 10% of the skill of top esports).  At the very least they should aim to be more skillful than mainstream games that have notoriously been dumbed down for even the most casual gamers.  If they can't even require more skill than games like WoW or GW2, what would that say about player skill mattering? 

 

Don't believe the game needs saving nor ACE is clueless. They seem well aware of what fans want, but more importantly what they want. It is their game before it is ours.

 

They have a vision, the details aren't hammered out yet, that's why people are here to give input during development.  Just like their initial implementation of telegraphs was heavily opposed, other features that lower the skill required will also be opposed. 

 

 

While I'm no "pro," been shooting folks online since the early/mid 90s and I would prefer Crowfall to not require a ton of manual skill. A decent amount would be nice, but there are multiple ways to tackle it that don't fall into Darkfall/FPS designs.

 

I would prefer crowfall require a lot of mechanical skill and brain power.  No one is asking it to require pinpoint precision like csgo or quake railgun, but it can not make aiming so easy that it's pointless to even have reticule aiming. 

 

 

Again this goes to what you personally define as "easy." You point out WoW, so I assume it is "easy" to you, if so I'd assume you can hop in and dominate anyone at anytime and win any tournament out there?

 

Yes WoW is easy, I was 2900 rated  back when 3k was the highest rating in the world... but let's not be hyperbolic... not even someone that plays wow 24-7 can just "hop in" and win any tournament out there. 

 

Each game requires a different tool set and type of skill. I don't personally prefer/enjoy the WoW system, but I respect those that have what it takes to be top tier in it. Same goes for any competitive game. It's like saying Basketball takes more skill then Golf or Nascar.

 

Basketball, golf, nascar are completely different types of activities... Comparing them to a bunch of video games that are all using keyboard and mouse isn't very good.  Great pvpers take what they've learned from every genre, and apply that to every new game they play...   Not every bit of wisdom translates, but a great deal more than most people realize does. 

 

Having soft locks or whatever isn't going to transform CF into WoW or dumb it down. It already has a list of features that will keep it nice and niche. How much so is to be seen and there is that whole "this game isn't for everyone" motto.

 

They already said they don't want the game to be too twitchy, which is usually more an indication that they don't want the speed of fighting to be too fast, this is further reinforced by their current 40second toe to toe ttk... that spells slower paced game, should a slower paced game where aiming should be significantly easier than the fast twitch games already, require aim assistance?  Especially if the projectiles probably aren't going to require pinpoint precision like many fps do? 

 

You made a comment about what "real PVPers" want and that is simply silly. I'm a PVPer and enjoy a wide variety of options. What you are talking about is a very specific type of gamer with a specific style aka yourself it seems.

 

What I am talking about are the standards that mainstream gamers are currently under.... give them something that requires even less skill than the current games, some of which are a decade old... and you have a problem...

 

Time will tell where crowfall lies in the skill department, but until it's all hammered out it's still good for people to give feedback, especially if they see some of the red flags that so many other games have failed because of. 

 

This post is giving me deja vu, swear I typed something similar months ago in response to Sheen...same company, same vision, same fans, same circular conversation.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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If ranged combat is too difficult without aim assist/tracking then your combat is too fast paced and spastic. GW2 is a prime example where everyone is sprinting around at 30mph juking and teleporting. It would be impossible to hit anyone with projectile attacks beyond close range in that environment without these assistances.

 

The correct answer would be to slow people down to a more realistic and manageable speed, not to dumb the game down and have your computer play it for you. Slower foot speed makes positioning, terrain and gap closing/opening skills much more important and skillful as well.


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Well you read the response and your retort was pretty awful.  So either continue the discussion or back out.

 

The over all consensus of this thread so far is that soft lock and aim assist is a terrible mistake and bad path to go down.

 

I don't know why people clearly supporting a minor interest attempt to mention their number when nobodies deluded into thinking there is a majority, not even yourselves. It's like, if you reference a meaningless context, you've made a point, at least in your head, and because you said something, you deserve an explanation. At some point though, people stop wasting their time, likely outcome isn't impacted by simply saying something, it has to have impact.

 

Now, if your willing to acknowledge your in a minority, respect other peoples interests, and present your interests as an option, than yeah, we can talk about how different people like different things, and maybe someone will fill that niche... or, you can act indignant, and nobody cares what you want or see's a point in fulfilling a niche, because your probably going to nitpick any attempt anyway, and why service a disgruntle minority, huh?, I mean, who wants to work for them?

 

Na, this is an old subject, and this party has been informed for ages, even if they stuck their head in the mud.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Ultimately, this wasn't even them saying they were going to put any of this in, just that they were willing to consider them if things didn't work.  Is that really something to be concerned about?

 

Yes. According to Blair:

 

It might just end up that SOME powers stay with manual aim for the purpose of siege warfare and are more unweildy if used against players.

 

This is the worst thing that could have happened to the combat.


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Working around elevations was the only reason they considered reticle targeting to begin with, anyone being observant would have at least questioned it, instead of jumping to a preferable conclusion >.>


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Now, if your willing to acknowledge your in a minority, respect other peoples interests...

 

Nosh1t we're a minority. Tab-targeting is the favourite combat system by far, it allows 80 years old to play the game.

Do you want the new WoW perhaps? Let's try to change any feature according to what the majority wants..

 

Working around elevations was the only reason they considered reticle targeting to begin with, anyone being observant would have at least questioned it, instead of jumping to a preferable conclusion >.>

 

"What do you mean by a "physics" system? ... objects in our game world move and react according to real-world physics rules. "

 

"We use a real-world gravity system where objects have mass and that mass corresponds to what you would expect from every day experience"

 

"Yes, the system affects everything in the world."

 

"Do projectiles use physics?  Yes they do."

Edited by Fenris DDevil

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Clearly ~10-20 people speak for the entire group of backers and future players...

 

just because the number is small, doesn't mean we're not a representative sample of the community.

 

I'm sure you had some statistics lectures in school/university. Refresh your knowledge, will ya?

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I'm sure we all realise it's not their first option as you may of read and over heard in the crowns and crows podcast.

 

They will do their best to make it work and if it doesn't... then they will make changes. I support their comment on this because it shows they have thought about it and tested and they must of encounter something which doesn't work properly.

 

The rich backers can test it for us in the combat testing coming up in a month or so. I'm sure we will see how it all works/feels then.


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For this type of PVP game you don't want a really high barrier of entry for new people to pick up a class and start having fun.

 

Ideally it would be easier as a ranged character to start shooting and hitting people with their basic skills. The complexity would come in using your combos and advanced skills correctly to predict what your opponent is going to do and follow up to secure victory.

 

Definitely you want to make it so the risk of missing attacks and dodging comes into play but not so much that all melee characters have to do to easily avoid ranged damage is hit the jump key while moving around.

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I'm sure we all realise it's not their first option as you may of read and over heard in the crowns and crows podcast.

 

They will do their best to make it work and if it doesn't... then they will make changes. I support their comment on this because it shows they have thought about it and tested and they must of encounter something which doesn't work properly.

 

The rich backers can test it for us in the combat testing coming up in a month or so. I'm sure we will see how it all works/feels then.

Yeah I think people need to pay less attention to the exact examples of changes they gave and more to the actual fact that they will make changes based on feedback and whats more fun and engaging for the combat system. Would be 1000x more deflating if they came out and said 'this is how our system will work and we'll do everything to make it work but we won't change anything if it doesn't this is what we will have'.

 

So yeah some of us don't like the examples they gave, fine stop overreacting to them move on and talk about ways you do like. Get too caught up with one single tree you'll miss out on making the forest better.  

 

Personally I'm for almost any system that makes the combat fun, dynamic and engaging. I don't really care if some think its super skill or not skilled or w/e. Skill rises to the top regardless of system, so like they have said they'll Find the Fun first.

Edited by pang

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They are experienced guys and they games they have worked with are amazing.

It's hard for me to really make harsh comments like "NO" and "THATS BAD" without actually seeing it in action.

 

We all trusted them when we handed them the $ so why not trust them to do their job and make the most of the situation. 


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They are experienced guys and they games they have worked with are amazing.

It's hard for me to really make harsh comments like "NO" and "THATS BAD" without actually seeing it in action.

 

We all trusted them when we handed them the $ so why not trust them to do their job and make the most of the situation.

 

You add nothing to this conversation but meaningless, suck up BS. Edited by checkyotrack

You are so incredibly helpful, CYT. I don't know how I ever managed to do anything before we met. I was just bumbling my way through life, all lost-like. Thank you. My blessing cup runneth over.

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"If we find it is too difficult to play ranged, we have a few systems we may need to add or augment, like ‘sticky’ targets, ranged assist or some manner of soft locking system."

News flash: Crowfall is not unreal combat / dfo2.o / the second coming of black jebus. The screams of neck beard introverts were heard across the internet. More at eleven o'clock.

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Two factors seem to  be the ones that weight the most in aiming.

 

1 - How lag affects hit or misses.

2 - Balance between making it fun and challenging versus making it dumb and automated.

 

Because of factor 1, lag, the aim can't be very precise, not even close as they are in FPS games because here the entire engine is not geared for that. If it is too precise people like me who live in Brazil won't be able to play this game, simply because I always have 200ms or so of latency in any game that is in the US due to distance. People in Australia have it worse.

 

And factor number 2 seems to be the one most people are discussing in this thread. If it is not precise people will just aim in a general direction and things will hit, which reduces skill cap. If it is too precise then it gets impractical to be ranged and lag comes into play again.

 

I think though that most people are forgetting friendly fire. They mentioned there will be FF in this game, you can't have FF and then have a targeting system that does everything automatically and targets for you , it is kind of pointless. THe system has to have enough precision so that you control where it lands. If it avoids FF automatically by "auto-targetting" then FF is almost pointless, if it is so annoying that it is a coin toss between hitting enemy or friend then it makes ranged too weak.
 

For me at least, no alarm on that quote from the confessor article. Until I see some videos of it in action I will keep my mind open, ready to criticize crappy systems if they are in place. I have no doubt aiming is important, it can make or break ranged classes, but a "if" and "could" statement is really not that alarming in my view, specially when combat is this early on development and there is so much time to test and change things.


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I think people are forgetting that this is 2015 and not 2003.  The technology is available to provide creative solutions to latency.  Softlocking and Aim Assist are cheap cop outs.  You can play some of the high skill cap FPS currently at 100~200ms because of how great basic connection speed has become.

 

I can see a great divide in people who have never put any sort of effort or dedication into playing FPS, not that it is a problem because it's not everyone's genre.

 

The sheer idea of having to balance every thing around a soft lock or aim assist is crazy.  How can you possibly tune a game on a single latency variable.  Like I said, the potentional for abuse is great with that.  It takes place in other games that rely on latency for DPS in similar fashion.

 

A fire and forget action is far different than something that has aim assist or soft lock.  Maybe they should consider that.

 

The point is, people adjust to latency automatically through play and experience.  Adding assisted aiming is adding a handicap.  I didn't expect to see that sort of thing from this development team, but none the less it has arrived extremely early in developement. 

Edited by facerip

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Working around elevations was the only reason they considered reticle targeting to begin with, anyone being observant would have at least questioned it, instead of jumping to a preferable conclusion >.>

This is another hyperbolic claim... you have no idea when they considered reticle targeting, when they decided on action combat they probably already considered it at that point... they opted to try telegraphs first (which is a red flag in and of itself), they found telegraphs to be lacking in some departments... so they iterated.

 

I'll put it this way... EQN/Landmark, a game that is not even pure PvP focused knew that telegraphs didn't really go well with player skill mattering, so they didn't even touch it...  What ACE should be doing is starting off super hardcore and then tuning it as needed, not going in with telegraphs and aim assist in mind from the get go. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I didn't expect to see that sort of thing from this development team, but none the less it has arrived extremely early in developement. 

 

Yeah, sorry, but you see that totally wrong. They haven't arrived at that point at all yet.

 

They might consider it a possible option only if the current solution doesn't work.

 

Don't make a problem from something that doesn't exist yet.


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Yeah, sorry, but you see that totally wrong. They haven't arrived at that point at all yet.

 

They might consider it a possible option only if the current solution doesn't work.

 

Don't make a problem from something that doesn't exist yet.

 

It's a problem that they are even using that sort of language this early in development.  From this consumer's stand point at least.

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Yeah, sorry, but you see that totally wrong. They haven't arrived at that point at all yet.

 

They might consider it a possible option only if the current solution doesn't work.

 

Don't make a problem from something that doesn't exist yet.

 

if the possibility was so small, like many people try to claim here, then why would they even mention it so early on?

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This is another hyperbolic claim... you have no idea when they considered reticle targeting, when they decided on action combat they probably already considered it at that point... they opted to try telegraphs first (which is a red flag in and of itself), they found telegraphs to be lacking in some departments... so they iterated.

 

I'll put it this way... EQN/Landmark, a game that is not even pure PvP focused knew that telegraphs didn't really go well with player skill mattering, so they didn't even touch it...  What ACE should be doing is starting off super hardcore and then tuning it as needed, not going in with telegraphs and aim assist in mind from the get go. 

The reason why they said they went away from telegraphs and to an aiming system was because of having to aim/target at enemies on castle walls that are elevated above the player. Can go check those old telegraph threads and see for yourself its fact not hyperbole.  

 

Also they are not starting at aim assist because its not in the game and won't be in the initial combat system. They used the word IF, as in IF they need to make targeting easier than they MAY go to some kind of aim assist.

Edited by pang

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